fishbone Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 What else would I be doing? Trust me, I don't WANT to do anything else. I'll snap a couple of pics as well of the Hawk pads and will submit for review if indeed I got them glazed somehow. I hope I don't have to compress the pistons too much and likewise the bedding in procedure will go smooth since the rotors won't be touched whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Understood, Mike. However, it sounds as if the HPS and other "street" pads from Carbotech, et al, have more cons than pros for a 100% street car. I never mentioned anything about needing to be heated up? Believe what you want, but we've installed close to 1000 sets of Hawk HPS pads in the past 10 or so years on Subarus who drive them as daily driven cars. The biggest complaint we have ever had is the dust appears to be slightly more than stock dust amounts. We've installed these pads on little old ladies driving Outbacks, soccer mom's driving Legacy GT Wagons, and the list goes on and on. We haven't had complaints of non-grabbyiness on cold pads, etc. I will also note we didn't sell the customers most of the 1000 sets of pads either, since we are primarily an install shop and can't compete with the internet bargain basement pricing, our customers generally bring their parts to us to get installed. So you can believe a few very vocal anecdotal folks posting up on the internet or trust a place that has installed a 1000 sets over a 10 year period and has statistically a lot more data to work with. Remember, 90% of the time if someone likes something they don't go out on the internet and talk about it, however if they dislike it they are more likely to go out and talk bad about the product on the internet. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Just got done installing the pads. I had to compress the pistons more than I expected given the low miles on the Hawks, siphoned some brake fluid out, went for a spin and I definitely got my old car back! The pedal feels awesome, the pads bite so firm it's as if they don't even need pad-in. Press the brake pedal ever so slightly with more force than just resting on it and the ABS protests. It took more force on the Hawks to do this. The rear pads were stamped Ate, the front BMW (actually every single brake pard read BMW). I checked the part #s and yes these are OEM. The Hawks don't look one bit glazed to me. What do glazed pads look and feel like? I also verified that the Hawks were installed properly. I really don't know what to say. The HPS feel better on the Subaru but that ain't saying much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Hm.... Whats the cvw of the mini vs a lgt (05-09)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Believe what you want, but we've installed close to 1000 sets of Hawk HPS pads in the past 10 or so years on Subarus who drive them as daily driven cars. The biggest complaint we have ever had is the dust appears to be slightly more than stock dust amounts. We've installed these pads on little old ladies driving Outbacks, soccer mom's driving Legacy GT Wagons, and the list goes on and on. We haven't had complaints of non-grabbyiness on cold pads, etc. I will also note we didn't sell the customers most of the 1000 sets of pads either, since we are primarily an install shop and can't compete with the internet bargain basement pricing, our customers generally bring their parts to us to get installed. So you can believe a few very vocal anecdotal folks posting up on the internet or trust a place that has installed a 1000 sets over a 10 year period and has statistically a lot more data to work with. Remember, 90% of the time if someone likes something they don't go out on the internet and talk about it, however if they dislike it they are more likely to go out and talk bad about the product on the internet. -mike Fair enough and point well taken, Mike. I ask because I'm ordering new pads, front/rear for my LGT this week and I'm trying to decide what to get. Is it safe to say that your suggestion would be to go with HPS pads for a strictly street car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Believe what you want, but we've installed close to 1000 sets of Hawk HPS pads in the past 10 or so years on Subarus who drive them as daily driven cars. A lot more people than that have bought and like Lady Gaga CDs but that doesn't make her a good singer. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Hm.... Whats the cvw of the mini vs a lgt (05-09)? I am not sure what you are asking. Curb vehicle weight? The Mini is right around 2600, LGT around 3360? I have an 05 non-limited auto LGT, 06 Mini S 6-speed auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I am not sure what you are asking. Curb vehicle weight? The Mini is right around 2600, LGT around 3360? I have an 05 non-limited auto LGT, 06 Mini S 6-speed auto. I was curious as to possibly the curb weight might have been favorable for 1 vehicle over the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 The lighter vehicle would have an easier time stopping and no matter how you toss it you'd be hard pressed to build a Mini heavier than a Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Fair enough and point well taken, Mike. I ask because I'm ordering new pads, front/rear for my LGT this week and I'm trying to decide what to get. Is it safe to say that your suggestion would be to go with HPS pads for a strictly street car? Yup, that's what we have found works for our customers and use them as the OEM replacement pads on lots of subies. With that said, we do carry the HPS if you were looking to buy them I believe they run about $95 a set for the fronts on a LGT. Probably not as competatively priced as others but we do try to sell them at a reasonable price for an independent LGT Vendor who actually tries to actively participate on these forums. -mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNS Brakes Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yup, that's what we have found works for our customers and use them as the OEM replacement pads on lots of subies. With that said, we do carry the HPS if you were looking to buy them I believe they run about $95 a set for the fronts on a LGT. Probably not as competatively priced as others but we do try to sell them at a reasonable price for an independent LGT Vendor who actually tries to actively participate on these forums. -mike Mike you are a saint... this thread is so....worthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Unless you offer some strong reasoning to the contrary, then the truly worthless is your interjection. I've proven the pads are worthless on a Mini and frankly I'm not willing to invest the time and money to swap them out ahead of time on the Legacy and prove the same, and I doubt anyone will believe me anyway. Wouldn't be the first time this forum got hung up on ideas. Day 2 back on the BMW OEM pads and it is amazing how better they are getting already, without having to drive like an asshat and bed them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Ordered my HPS yesterday from Oakos Automotive (sorry, AZP, David and I are friends from my days back in MI). I'll report back to this thread with my results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lieutenantcolumbo Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Mike you are a saint... this thread is so....worthless ^ = < worthless Couldn't possibly be a sporadic quality control problem with the compounds used in the pads? Certainly would have expected something more insightful from a brake vendor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Mike you are a saint... this thread is so....worthless I imagine your company policy slogan hanging on a wall somewhere... "The customer is always wrong" Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I'm sure customers are lining up as well, since online vendors are so few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Unless you offer some strong reasoning to the contrary, then the truly worthless is your interjection. I've proven the pads are worthless on a Mini and frankly I'm not willing to invest the time and money to swap them out ahead of time on the Legacy and prove the same, and I doubt anyone will believe me anyway. Wouldn't be the first time this forum got hung up on ideas. Day 2 back on the BMW OEM pads and it is amazing how better they are getting already, without having to drive like an asshat and bed them in. I guess a lot of people, including myself, just have a hard time believing/accepting that you're experiencing such a night and day difference between stock and HPS pads... And not just in one aspect of the brake pedal's performance, but pretty much ALL. You're saying it brakes better in the cold and hot, for initial bite and sustained braking, and the pedal feel is improved. I mean, that would really have to mean that HPS pads completely suck, ALL the time. I'd understand if maybe you said one aspect sucked, while it excelled in others (e.g. hot performance was great, but it takes time to warm up) but you truly are saying the pad is inferior in EVERY regard. At least that's why *I'm* skeptical. I simply don't find that to be the case at all with my own HPS pads. I'm on my second set currently... just swapped in new ones about 3 weeks ago. Anyway, you're entitled to your own opinion, but regardless, thanks for your time and effort. Like I said, the only real way to be figure out if this is all just subjective bias is by having us drive each other's cars.... Coming to NYC any time in the near future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I don't. I'll go back to what I said about them several times. My concern with them is inconsistency, as they do not publish any specifications. In my experience, they are wildly inconsistent. This thread really demonstrates that quite well to me. It does sound like a good number of them are fine, but it also sounds like a significant number are not at all fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tito_b0y Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Certainly would have expected something more insightful from a brake vendor. I, too, was expecting a fairly in-depth response than that. With that said, I'm bringing my car in to AZP this Saturday for Hawk HPS, Centric Premium rotors, and Goodridge SS lines all around. Currently running 40k on stock rotors and pads. 2006 SWP 3.0R 5EAT VDC BBQ 2008 OBP 2.5i 4EAT BBQ [RIP] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 iNVAR, the Hawks, once warmed up, seemed to work ok-ish. The pedal rate of travel, braking force, etc. was strange and definitely no longer felt like before. They do not feel superior to the OEMs in absolutely any regard when it comes to emergency stops, etc. After a long drive at constant speed, ie highway or freeway, the first stop, once again, lost firmness. My wife felt uneasy when she had to brake for a trailer that did a crappy merge and she gave me the ultimatum then and there to swap them. I am sure the Hawks, with sustained braking in the hot, with aggressive driving, blah blah would do better than the stockers. The stockers are like lumps of coal, it is ridiculous how much dust they generate. Simply put, I believe the Hawks are of the wrong operating temp ranges for the Mini since their temperature had that big of an impact. For the Subaru, the same. They are not much better in cold and I think the one crucial difference is the fact that the Subaru brake pedal seems to have a much longer travel. In other words you can overcome the poor performance with sheer pressure. Which I think it's not OK. I can stand the Mini on it's head when it's stone cold in the morning. I know you love your HPS. I understand you like them on the Subaru. I understand you are skeptical. I understand you have a hard time believing BMW OEM pads are better on the street. But please also understand I do not have invested stock in BMW so there is absolutely no agenda on my behalf. The best way I can describe the way they feel/felt was as if the pads were sliding on the rotors and were not grabbing them with any authority. I strongly believe I have done everything a reasonable person would have done and would have been expected to do. I opened this thread to prove their inconsistency and the fact that they seem to be a gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkside Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 HPS pads are just factory replacements, 5% better if that, which is the same in my book as factory. HP+ are great if you can deal with ocasional squeak, good bite with little warm up, and Stoptech is the happy medium, They were a little rough for a couple month of break in. but in my opinion they are the happy medium. just my 2 cents from experience. Maybe i got a bad batch of HPS but i thought they sucked. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 5% better what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I said it before. 5% nothing since the statement is so broad it supposedly covers everything OEM from Corollas to GT-Rs. Not really but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocuS Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I did a full set of HP+ on Brembo fronts and stock rears. They do take a little to warm but not that bad and really minimal squealing... My .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 If the HPS takes no warming up then I really can't explain how it took a few stops for the pads to firm up AND the pedal to feel precise. With the OEM pads, no such problem so I know it's not the system. I am perfectly fine with accepting the possibility of a quality control issue where I simply ended up with a bad set on the Mini and a mediocre one on the Legacy. So there's my experience, take it and do whatever you wish with it I, for one, will never get Hawk anything anymore. I think I'll be looking at a set of Stoptech next, or whatever stops the car better without periodic maintenance (bedding in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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