Anyone seriously not happy with their Hawk pads?

[matt]

On my LGT I went from fully stock brakes to Carbotech Bobcats + DOT4 fluid + SS lines + slotted rotors. Pedal feel didn't change much, but high-speed braking ability and fade resistance improved greatly. I even used that setup on my first track day, and while they're no track pad, they held up well enough for day 1. (I was conscious that I wasn't using a track pad.)

 

What does this have to do with the Hawk HPS? Well, if you don't like the HPS but also don't like the OEM pads, I too recommend trying the Bobcats. There is one catch: Carbotech's ain't cheap.

 

Personally I hated, I mean HATED the OEM pads. They constantly left uneven deposits on the rotors that could be felt in the pedal, and they even faded on the freeway during high speed runs down I-5 in the central valley. Even in more typical daily driving they never inspired much confidence.

 

I too believe the HPS are mediocre based on way too much forum reading, but at the same time I probably would've considered them an upgrade on the LGT.

 

Come to think of it, when I drive my mom's Forester it usually has uneven deposits on the rotors, sometimes worse than my LGT had. I think all OEM Subaru pads are junk except for the STI's, which are very good, and far superior to the HPS.

[fishbone]

Granted chain places can be pretty freakin' incompetent at times, I would think when it comes to brakes, in a litigious country like the good'ol US, they'd be a bit extra careful. And like I said, this ain't your typical Meineke but hey, I will go in for the third time and be "that guy".

[iNVAR]

Do you consider following through a bed-in procedure FIVE TIMES to be normal on an outstanding set of pads? I do not. Not even close.

And people agree with me:

Actually, I think you're misinterpreting what he said. He said he does each STEP five times instead of 3. Not that he does the entire process 5 times.

 

I am not backpeddaling on anything. I did not, however, hang on every word when I initially posted these issues because I was not expecting to be put on the defensive so I did choose some poor ones. "Hitting the floor" is a wrong description. In hindsight I can see now how that would be interpreted as the pedal going to the floor like a clutch pedal. There is hydraulic resistance, what I am saying is I can squeeze that mofo down and the pads don't seem to do much.

If the pedal stays solid/stiff and the brake pads don't seem to do much, then that would be a brake pad issue. It's also possible you glazed your pads over. Take your pads out (I know, its a pain) and look at what the contact surface looks like. Take a picture if possible.

 

Now, you said I screwed up by getting the pads to smoke. That is one point of view. Another point of view is, not only is this normal, but the CORRECT way to bed pads in, as I was told in that thread

http://www.essexparts.com/learning-center/cat/brake-pads/post/Bed-in?v=2

So, two guys on the internet ... who am I supposed to believe

For the record, I did NOT follow that procedure. I followed Hawk's.

No, I said you messed up when you came to a stop at a light with smoking pads. You are not supposed to come to a full and complete stop at any time when your brakes are THAT hot.

 

No, you don't. You told me in the Tuning section you were frustrated because I opened a bajillion threads when I in fact have one thread open.

You actually have 2 but *I* was clearly exaggerating, sorry... But anyway...

 

From your own quote from that thread:

And, any car no matter how mundane that has a pedal that sinks to the floor has an issue somewhere--typically air in the system or boiled fluid if subjected to repeated stops, though of course if worn it could possibly be master cylinder. Regardless of the cause, not an acceptable result ever for the most important basic safety system in the car.

Which mirrors my thoughts exactly.

 

Back to the pads... there will always be negative comments about ANY pad, especially one that's as widely used like the Hawk HPS. The general impression I get is that Hawk HPS pads get more positive feedback from drivers than negative feedback. That's not to say that I'm discounting the negative reviews. Not at all.

 

But many (certainly not all) negative opinions I find regarding Hawk HPS stem from people saying things about initial bite (not a good way to judge pad performance), and cold stopping performance (it needs to warm up a tiny bit)... and they provide no context with regards to how they bedded things in. As such, I do tend to weigh them less.

 

I do know that I run them, and they run well. Honestly, I haven't found any sort of problems even with cold braking performance in the winter. And I also am pretty certain that my cousin (whose opinion I value highly) has run them before on several different cars during street driving and autocrossing and he's never mentioned them flat out sucking before.

 

What one of the guys said about running for the exits after reading your review is a knee-jerk over reaction. Only one person said anything about not being able to engage ABS during braking with the HPS, and that was mentioned in the context of cold braking, which again, I still find unlikely. Unless you guys have some ridiculously grippy rubber...

[fishbone]

You actually have 2 but *I* was clearly exaggerating, sorry... But anyway...

One thread. Jesus this is so retarded. One thread about Stage 2. It was about hardware, then it became about tuning. So the mods decided to split it. One is effectively done and done and the other was moved to Tuning. Nowhere close to what you were bitching about, which was me being all over the place with multiple threads.

But many (certainly not all) negative opinions I find regarding Hawk HPS stem from people saying things about initial bite (not a good way to judge pad performance), and cold stopping performance (it needs to warm up a tiny bit)... and they provide no context with regards to how they bedded things in. As such, I do tend to weigh them less.

Dude I wish this was about the initial bite, really. I do, because then there wouldn't be an issue.

Only one person said anything about not being able to engage ABS during braking with the HPS, and that was mentioned in the context of cold braking, which again, I still find unlikely. Unless you guys have some ridiculously grippy rubber...

There is nothing out of this world about Bridgestones AS400 as far as I know. They are a decent all-weather rubber but not a record-setter.

 

I hope I clarified it to your satisfaction everything points to the damn pads. But I still intend to have the braking system looked at. Again.

[iNVAR]

Only other thing I can think of is pad glazing then. You have to look at the pads yourself for that.

 

A stiff/firm pedal indicates the hydraulic system is working fine. If you're stepping on the pedal but you don't seem to be slowing down, your pads are either fading (unlikely since you're not really hot yet) or you haven't reached operating temperature (don't think so either. .sounds like you're sufficiently warmed up) or the pads are glazed over. If you're stepping on the pedal and it feels soft and sinks, then you should be looking at the hydraulics.

 

The reason I weigh the positive reviews more than the negatives is also...well, think of it this way.

 

Let's say... You have a bunch of people saying their pads can engage ABS fine, right? I'm taking the subjective bias out of this by using that simple condition.

 

Given similar setups for your cars, *everyone* should be able to engage ABS, right? If a pad is capable of something on one person's Mini, it stands to reason that the pad should be capable on your Mini, no? It's simple logic. It's not as if we're even talking about bite, or fade or anything else that's subjective. We're talking about ABS engagement. Either the pad can do it, or it can't. If it can on even ONE person's car, it should be able to do so on ALL your cars, given similar setups. Do you follow me on this?

 

That's why I'm so insistent that there's something else wrong other than the pads.

[fishbone]

I'm sorry that somehow Tire Rack got dragged into this by name. I should have taken that part out but hey, it's out on that thread so it would have made no difference. I think they are a kick ass vendor.

Do you follow me on this?

See what AZP Installs and Fossil2k2 talked about.

I have been able to get the ABS to chatter, as of late, I think I mentioned this. I am guessing the fact that the rotors were turned (yes, they are well within factory spec for thickness) made the bed-in process even longer. However, again, taking that apart, taking pedal feel apart, these pads simply don't come even close to what the stockers were able to do on, again, technically old fluid. I've put 1K miles on them so far, at least.

 

rao's approach is sound. Post 3 words. Anything more and you just give salvos to those that disagree. No amount of arguments will convince anyone that has already made up their mind. And I will check the pads as well when I have a chance.

I'll say it again. These pads suck. They are tolerable on the LGT and they suck on the Mini.

[iNVAR]

I do see what Mike and Fossil are talking about but I also agree with what you stated.

The only reason I mentioned ABS was due to the reasoning there should be enough braking force to at least bring the tires to the brink of it chattering.

Again, I could be wrong. Maybe ask the NAM people that are sticking up for the HPS pads specifically if they're able to easily engage ABS. Again, by doing this, you remove any sort of subjectivity from things. It becomes a simple case of "can the pads do it, or can't they?"

[AZP Installs]

I just want to note that over the weekend we were out at Stafford Springs Raceway running Hawk HPS pads in Tony's LGT. Adam was running laps that were nearly as fast as an STi ST2 Race Car and the HPS pads never faded on him and he did not complain about any braking issues.

 

Anyway, just some feedback on the HPS pads from this past weekend.

 

http://azpinstalls.com/gallery/main.php/d/7395-2/WBM4.jpg

[fishbone]

I scheduled today to have the brake system checked. Again. If that fails, I have a shop in town that has the dealer tool and can put the system into bleed mode which cycles the ABS valves to release trapped air, etc. Otherwise the closest Mini dealer to me is 45 miles out ... I forget the brand but Meineke is using DOT4 synthetic brake fluid so that should be fine.

I should have some news this afternoon.

[Soda Popinski]

My first set of Hawk HPS rears went through retardedly quick. Then my 2nd set was much better. I'm now on my 2nd set of fronts, and 3rd set of rears and I've had zero issues with these. I bought the front and rear sets from a CT vendor instead of a PA vendor this time around and maybe they came from a bad batch before?

[fishbone]

Well I definitely hope I don't have to put up with them for miles and miles and miles on end Wearing them quick would be great. I am hoping the same thing for the Eagle F1 A/S tires on the Legacy. They are howling like a pack of angry wolves Do not recommend.

[Soda Popinski]

Edit function won't work, keeps telling me that I need atleast 1 character even though I write a bunch of words. ARG.

 

Anyway... I run a stoptech slotted front rotor and slotted rear (both listed as stage 2 stoptech from their site)... these were kinda spendy. Dunno if that helps

[Soda Popinski]

Well I definitely hope I don't have to put up with them for miles and miles and miles on end Wearing them quick would be great. I am hoping the same thing for the Eagle F1 A/S tires on the Legacy. They are howling like a pack of angry wolves Do not recommend.

 

http://treadsource.com/images/P/GY_Eagle_F1_GSD3-132.jpg

 

I run Goodyear Eagle GS D3 summer only tires on mine. I'm on my 2nd set, and because this size was considered 'discontinued' I was able to get the advertised price at Town Fair Tire for a set of rims + tires for 999 out the door

 

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u148/cherrybloom203/2008%20Legacy%20GT%20-%20XXR%20502%20chromium%20black%20wheels/DSC03162.png

 

Those are XXR-502's in chromium black (looks exactly like the quartz silver metalic grey paint on my car), plus tires for 999 + tax, not bad.

 

sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack.

[keysersoze]

I am running DBA 4000XS rotors with Technafit stainless brake lines with the HPS pads. As Mike started earlier, we ran them hard doing ride alongs at the WBM and they held up just fine.

[fishbone]

Uh-oh, more backpeddaling

I take back anything positive I've said about these pads. After a panic stop on the freeway and yesterday's autocross, they are coming off the car. I feel that they are unsafe. Yes, that bad.

Car is in the shop as we speak, will come back with an update.

Like bosco once said, famously, stay stock stay happy.

[Soda Popinski]

aside from that one bad 1st set of rear HPS hawks... I've never seen the issues posted in this thread... *headscratch*

[Soda Popinski]

check the manufacturing plant on the box... maybe they are made in different places?

[fishbone]

The box is long gone, tossed along with the old pads.

[ShadowImg]

aside from that one bad 1st set of rear HPS hawks... I've never seen the issues posted in this thread... *headscratch*

 

Actually I think this thread outlines my problems with them very well. My experience & research shows that they are wildly inconsistent. Here we've got people doing lapping/track days with no issues to people having trouble getting bite on the street. That has actually been my exact experience, is that you never know what you're going to get. They don't list specs (that I can find) beyond "20-30% improvement in braking over OEM!" -- that's a really shady statement.

[fishbone]

Got a call back. Checked the lines, checked the pads, checked the ABS module, did hard stops, ABS chattered, the system is fine, there is nothing wrong with it.

The pads are continuing to suck, especially in the morning when they are stone cold. Putting pressure on the pedal, all that seems to accomplish is get the pads to slide on the rotors, minimal grip.

[lieutenantcolumbo]

The pads are continuing to suck, especially in the morning when they are stone cold.

 

Should be even more scary this winter if you don't swap them out.

[iNVAR]

Actually I think this thread outlines my problems with them very well. My experience & research shows that they are wildly inconsistent. Here we've got people doing lapping/track days with no issues to people having trouble getting bite on the street. That has actually been my exact experience, is that you never know what you're going to get. They don't list specs (that I can find) beyond "20-30% improvement in braking over OEM!" -- that's a really shady statement.

Hmm... That's not good. What I would really love to do is to have two guys meet up with their cars. One who claims their HPS suck, one claims the are great. And have them test drive each others' cars. Or swap the pads. Either way.

[iNVAR]

The pads are continuing to suck, especially in the morning when they are stone cold. Putting pressure on the pedal, all that seems to accomplish is get the pads to slide on the rotors, minimal grip.

In the other thread, you mentioned (quoted) someone saying that the pedal sinks.

 

So you said earlier, your pedal's high and firm when the car is just sitting there right? But it sinks when you're driving on the pads? Is it only after they've really heated up and the pedal sinking suddenly pops up?

I do distinctly remember when I bedded in my pads originally on a brand new set of rotors that the first few stops sucked horribly but that the pedal travel and firmness was consistent. After about the 5th stop or so, the pedal did sink a tiny bit during that last stop... I seem to recall reading that that's normal.... so I guess the pad can affect pedal travel somewhat.

 

Anyway, I'm just wondering if it's a matter of pedal firmness, or pedal travel distance. When you say that you don't like the pedal travel, do you mean that you to have to expend a lot of effort (not movement) with your foot stepping on the pedal in order to stop the car? So it stays firm, but you have to press harder?

 

Or do you mean that the distance is actually farther because the pedal goes mushy?

 

I don't know if I'm doing a good job of explaining myself.

 

P.S.

Like bosco once said, famously, stay stock stay happy

I was never happy stock.

[fishbone]

No, it doesn't take a lot of effort to sink it in, not anything that would be out of the ordinary. The pedal feels just like on any other car I've driven, nothing remarkable about that in the sense that some wrong feeling stands out. If I squeeze the pedal at a stop, I can squeeze it down. It won't gradually sink down, the force is consistent, but I can squeeze it down, if pressed hard. If I were to do this with the car moving, I would probably make it stand on it's nose. What is key here, is the distance it would take to make it do so. The stockers would not take as long and the pedal travel and feel was better.

 

Simply put, at this moment I am thinking the pads simply do not work well with the OEM rotors, OR that I got a bad batch. My head is spinning from all the horror stories I have read about trapped air in obscure line bends and other crap and really, on an internet board you can chase any given rabbit hole to infinity.

The pads feel like they are dragging when cold, for the first few stops and when warm they simply do not stop as good as the OEMs. And on top of this there is the uncertainty of their impact on pedal travel and feel.

Put together with the mediocre performance (but improvement nonetheless IMHO over OEM) on the Subaru, I cannot honestly recommend them. To anyone.

[Fossil2k2]

How much are pads for a Mini? Are they worth all this trouble? You clearly think the Hawk's suck, so go buy some new ones (not Hawk's), put them on, if they still suck, you've at least narrowed down your problem.