iNVAR Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Well, he says stocks were better, so that's always an option I guess. But I think he's looking for an actual upgrade... I'm seriously baffled by the bad reviews of Hawk HPS pads, even from LGT people. Wondering what could be the cause... maybe I have low standards? Maybe they have high standards? Maybe Hawk pads really are manufactured inconsistently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 How much are pads for a Mini? Are they worth all this trouble? You clearly think the Hawk's suck, so go buy some new ones (not Hawk's), put them on, if they still suck, you've at least narrowed down your problem. I should have done this in the first place but iNVAR is right, I was looking to upgrade. Some upgrade I got I got a good price for the set via Import Image, which rocks btw. Street price on OEM pads is around 200-250. iNVAR, I honestly don't know. Maybe there were bad batches or their quality control leaves to be desired. Wish I knew. As it stands the OEM brakes on the Mini were outstanding, but they generate quite a bit of dust which was really my only gripe to begin with. They feel precise, bite great, stop on the dime. Brake feel imho is everything you'd expect from a German car. You know exactly when you're on the threshold of slip or ABS kicking in. Not so much with the Hawks now. They don't bite, they suck in cold and feel vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lieutenantcolumbo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 You can always resell your Hawks for a couple of bucks, just make sure you fully disclose the issues you felt existed. Can't have many miles on them. Maybe the buyer could then get back to you with his impression. If they suck on two cars that would rule out your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 If I ditch them, I'm not going to pass them onto anyone, they are going either back to Hawk for a refund, or the trash bin. If I had an ex-wife with a Mini, then maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Wow all these stories of bad cold bite are baffling to me. I use HP+ year round on my cars and live in NY/NJ and even in the winter they are fine, they warm up at about the same rate as m car, so by the time I leave my complex, having gone 10mph for the block or 2 with 2 stop signs in it, they are fine for my liking. As Invar said, either they are: 1- wildly inconsistent, doubtful since we've installed 100s of them w/o complaints 2- my supplier gives me good ones 3- Invar and I have low standards 4- Everyone complaining has high standards or 5- Something else. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 AZP: HP+ and HPS are totally different pads. Maybe that accounts for the difference here. Did you do that track day on HPS or HP+? HP+ would make more sense (and I've never driven on them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The track day was done on HPS as Tony's car is 99% a daily driven car and the HPS is a more streetable pad. The HP+ is a more track oriented pad, and as such takes even LONGER to heat up, yet by the time I drive 3 blocks at 10mph out of my complex they bite without a problem. I was using the HP+ as an extreme example which should not have as good of a stopping power when cold as the HPS do. Our customers all get HPS unless they do a lot of track days or insist on HP+ pads. I use HP+ on my CTS-V, STi, previously on my LGT, Legacy SS and never had a problem stopping in the cold with them. -mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lieutenantcolumbo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I use HP+ year round on my cars and live in NY/NJ and even in the winter they are fine, they warm up at about the same rate as m car, so by the time I leave my complex, having gone 10mph for the block or 2 with 2 stop signs in it, they are fine for my liking. I read a lot of this exact same comment about the Hawks, which is why I stayed away. Too many kids, dogs, and deer around here and I don't think I can count on them to wait till after my third stop to get in front of the car. Hopefully your mileage will vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Except that the pads I use are HP+ which are significantly more aggressive and work in a higher heat range than the HPS. The HPS are fine from cold. The other thing is that you should not be driving like a mad-man when your car is ice cold, it's not real good for any part of your car (transmission, engine, etc). There are NO SHORTCUTS to performance parts there are always trade offs in every single part you put on your car. Be it price, performance, longevity, etc. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'm on my 2nd pair of HPS right now, I have to admit, they don't seem to grip as good as my 1st pair. With my 2nd pair I replaced the rotors, added SS brakelines, and added Super Blue fluid to the system. I thought with the added upgrades it would make the pads grip better, but all it did was add firmness to the brake pedal. Might have Hawk changed their compound material in their HPS? My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lieutenantcolumbo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The other thing is that you should not be driving like a mad-man when your car is ice cold, it's not real good for any part of your car (transmission, engine, etc). 100% agree, but I would extend the mad-man definition to include anybody who puts pads on a daily driver that takes two to three stops to heat up and work properly. That's just my opinion, and I will admit I did the same thing with a previous car, but it wasn't a daily driver, had an eight point roll cage, five way seat belts, and only got driven occasionally in the summer (not Hawks, but Performance Friction Z rated pads for the vette brakes I put on my Camaro). Also read the same type of comments about both types of Hawks, but like anything on the Internet, maybe I just found the answer I was searching for. As I said previously I am not speaking from personal experience about these since I was turned off by the negative reviews (which I admit were in the minority). I think they are even lower on my list now though, with threads like this reinforcing my gut feel about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Never had a problem with cold weather performance on my HPS and I've been through some brutally cold weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 The cold bite is almost non-issue on the Subaru. I can barely tell a difference. On the Mini, completely different story. Does that help? I'm having another flush done today, just because I have some money to blow. I'm gonna have the indie shop use the same thing I use in the LGT which works very well imho: Valvoline DOT3/4. I told them to go through the entire bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Fish - A new set of pads would be cheaper than a brake flush man I haven't run Hawk's and I was close since the one thing they've got going for them according to most is that they don't leave deposits and will wipe old deposits off for good, so braking is smooth. That being said: one of the ways a braking system is built is to be able to overwhelm the friction potential of the tire. In other words - lock up the tire. The point of that is to always have more braking potential on tap than the tires can possibly yield - this leads to lock, but it also prevents the reverse from occuring...you can't brake as hard as your tires can slow. If you are still having difficulty locking up your tires, and everything checks out, then simply put it's the pads. Maybe you suck at breaking in pads (hehehe), maybe they are glazed, maybe they have a factory defect, I don't know. But there it is. So ditch them because they are not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil2k2 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Fish - A new set of pads would be cheaper than a brake flush man Exactly what I was getting at earlier, start your troubleshooting with the least expensive part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The cold bite is almost non-issue on the Subaru. I can barely tell a difference. On the Mini, completely different story. Does that help? I'm having another flush done today, just because I have some money to blow. I'm gonna have the indie shop use the same thing I use in the LGT which works very well imho: Valvoline DOT3/4. I told them to go through the entire bottle.I use Valvoline too. I used to get ATE Super Blue/Amber 200 but that's too much of a pain to get. No one sells it locally so I have to have it shipped, plus it costs 2x as much I think. Valvoline works well and is readily available and cheap. I bleed my brakes myself. I bought this way back in... 2003 when I had my old car. The cap on it was designed for Euro cars, but I bought an adapter and now I can swap back and forth between the two. http://www.fredbeansparts.com/index.php/motive-brake-bleeder.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 100% agree, but I would extend the mad-man definition to include anybody who puts pads on a daily driver that takes two to three stops to heat up and work properly. That's just my opinion, and I will admit I did the same thing with a previous car, but it wasn't a daily driver, had an eight point roll cage, five way seat belts, and only got driven occasionally in the summer (not Hawks, but Performance Friction Z rated pads for the vette brakes I put on my Camaro). Also read the same type of comments about both types of Hawks, but like anything on the Internet, maybe I just found the answer I was searching for. As I said previously I am not speaking from personal experience about these since I was turned off by the negative reviews (which I admit were in the minority). I think they are even lower on my list now though, with threads like this reinforcing my gut feel about them. Well, when my brakes are cold they work fine at 10mph. My point is that it's irrelevant that they don't have tire chirping stopping power when they are ice cold since when your car is ice cold they only need to stop you from 10mph which they do just fine. -mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm getting the flush done free. I only have to deal with the hassle of dropping and picking the car up, which is actually not a big deal. Thanks for the link iNVAR, I was actually looking at buying that myself, the guys on the Mini boards use it. I also saw some cheaper units at Harbor Freight but I think they are more of a hassle. The price of that unit basically pays itself for the first time you use it, since most places charge around 60 bucks for a flush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I use Motul RBF 600 since 9000 miles. Did a complete flush from the dealership and just top it off as needed. Also have braided steel lines and hawk hps, stoptech stage 2 slotted rotors (front and rear). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 No doubt there are tons and tons of kick-ass brake fluids out there. Given that these cars are daily drivers and the fluid gets changed anyway pretty frequently, anything more expensive than a synthetic which meets and exceeds DOT4 found locally, such as Valvoline's, is a big waste of money. I was going to let the shop use their own in-house BG DOT3 fluid but I have no experience with it, so knowing I love Valvoline, I didn't want to have another "variable" in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradlgt21 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The HP+ is a more track oriented pad, and as such takes even LONGER to heat up, yet by the time I drive 3 blocks at 10mph out of my complex they bite without a problem. I was using the HP+ as an extreme example which should not have as good of a stopping power when cold as the HPS do. Let me give you my real life example that actually happened to me. I leave work in the winter it cold probably about 10 degrees outside. I pull out of the parking lot onto the main street. I turn left on a green arrow and never need to stop, turn right at another light and my first stop happens to be when the SUV in front of me swerves around someone stopped in the road trying to turn left. Couldn't see around the SUV to realize a car was stopped, a car is next to me so I can't swerve so I stand on the brakes and I don't even get thrown against my seat belt. I feel like the car should have stopped by now since I was only going about 35. Car never stops I end up going into the rear of the infinity trying to turn. I follow him into the lot we exchange info but luckily my plastic plate frame took all the damage and the car barely has a scratch. The car is a rental so he says if they mention anything he will call me and contact the insurance. Luckily I never get a call but I am sure stock brakes would have stopped me in time. I am switching to a OEM style setup this weekend the pads are in the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I use Motul RBF 600 since 9000 miles. Did a complete flush from the dealership and just top it off as needed. Also have braided steel lines and hawk hps, stoptech stage 2 slotted rotors (front and rear). You shouldn't be topping off your fluid. Once the fluid gets low enough for the light to come on, that means it's time for pads. Also you should be flushing 1x every 3 years. (It's part of the 30k mile service). For fluids, we like ATE Superblue (and if anyone needs it feel free to contact us as we sell it as well). We've used Valvoline when we first started to track our cars about 10 years ago and it was good stuff. Since then we found the ATE to be a bit of an improvement while not costing an arm and a leg. We have also tested out the Amsoil Race Brake Fluid and it wasn't as good as the ATE. I haven't tried the Motul but may give it a shot when I do my Lines on my STi next week. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Let me give you my real life example that actually happened to me. I leave work in the winter it cold probably about 10 degrees outside. I pull out of the parking lot onto the main street. I turn left on a green arrow and never need to stop, turn right at another light and my first stop happens to be when the SUV in front of me swerves around someone stopped in the road trying to turn left. Couldn't see around the SUV to realize a car was stopped, a car is next to me so I can't swerve so I stand on the brakes and I don't even get thrown against my seat belt. I feel like the car should have stopped by now since I was only going about 35. Car never stops I end up going into the rear of the infinity trying to turn. I follow him into the lot we exchange info but luckily my plastic plate frame took all the damage and the car barely has a scratch. The car is a rental so he says if they mention anything he will call me and contact the insurance. Luckily I never get a call but I am sure stock brakes would have stopped me in time. I am switching to a OEM style setup this weekend the pads are in the garage. And this was with HPS pads? I find it hard to believe. Maybe with HP+ pads but definitely not with HPS. With my HP+ I would just make a few stops in the lot as soon as I pull out of the spot at 5mph and have never had a problem, even in sub-zero weather. I stand on the brakes and I don't even get thrown against my seat belt. I feel like the car should have stopped by now since I was only going about 35. If you STOOD on the brakes and they didn't grip, there is definitely something wrong and I don't think it is 100% due to your pads. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 The bottom line is if you don't feel confident with your pads there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. I know I've gotten that way with particular sets of tires myself. -mike http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Dealer "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 You shouldn't be topping off your fluid. Once the fluid gets low enough for the light to come on, that means it's time for pads. Also you should be flushing 1x every 3 years. (It's part of the 30k mile service). I do my service myself... but I'm anal about the brakes. I even clean out the gunk that builds up in there with q-tips and what not. I had an old chrysler that used to have bad brakes so it's an OCD habit for me. My first set of hawk hps went fast in the rear so after that I don't mind topping it off. I inspect my brakes every 10k anyway... pop the pads out etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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