Anyone seriously not happy with their Hawk pads?

[fishbone]

I was able to get the ABS to chatter today while running a lunch errand.

They feel better but still not as good as stock by a long shot on this car.

Lesson learned. Still debating if I should keep them or not. I'm getting used to them I guess

[iNVAR]

Hrm, I got confused, thought you meant the Legacy... but still. I'll ask my buddy that has a Mini what pads he's running and if he has any experience with Hawk HPS. I'll ask my cousin too, who used to do TONS of autocrossing in his Mini and actually won them... He's tried all sorts of pads.

 

I still strongly believe that on ANY car, the brakes should easily be able to overcome the static friction of the tires, thereby causing ABS to lock up... even if you were riding on slicks, you should still be able to do this from 60 MPH if you slam on the brakes.

[fishbone]

That is what I was thinking. Good or bad tires, a good set of pads should be able to bite with enough force to get the ABS to chatter. I appreciate you checking in with the rest iNVAR although I already suspect what I am going to hear. Carbontec, etc. I figured since Hawks were an improvement on my Legacy and nobody voiced a negative opinion on the Mini boards, why not go with them. Then I drove a Forester and as comparison a Nissan Rogue, both with stock pads, and realized mine were not that much better and what made the most difference in the first place was most likely fresh brake fluid.

One thing someone mentioned was the possibility of air trapped in the ABS module. This is something that the dealer can fix by cycling the ABS valves. One could do this as well by engaging the ABS, which I have done a few times now.

 

Either way, I guess where I was going with this thread is to point out your mileage may vary and despite the rave reviews I am no longer impressed.

[Catalyst]

so with all this anti Hawk going on what pads are people switching to?? Im about to get new pads and rotors. Its a DD but im rather aggressive at times on open back roads. help me out??

 

Stoptech Performance

[AZP Installs]

That is what I was thinking. Good or bad tires, a good set of pads should be able to bite with enough force to get the ABS to chatter. I appreciate you checking in with the rest iNVAR although I already suspect what I am going to hear. Carbontec, etc. I figured since Hawks were an improvement on my Legacy and nobody voiced a negative opinion on the Mini boards, why not go with them. Then I drove a Forester and as comparison a Nissan Rogue, both with stock pads, and realized mine were not that much better and what made the most difference in the first place was most likely fresh brake fluid.

One thing someone mentioned was the possibility of air trapped in the ABS module. This is something that the dealer can fix by cycling the ABS valves. One could do this as well by engaging the ABS, which I have done a few times now.

 

Either way, I guess where I was going with this thread is to point out your mileage may vary and despite the rave reviews I am no longer impressed.

 

 

I think everyone is getting a bit confused on how ABS works...

 

ABS uses a differential of wheel speeds to pulse a particular wheel in a lockup situation. So if you have evenly worn tires, be them good or bad, your ABS won't kick in because the sensors won't see a speed differential between wheels. With new tires you are less likely to see ABS kick in. Similarly you are less likely to see ABS kick in with say Hoosier Race tires on a street car in a braking test.

 

I've been running the Hawks for about 10+ years in subies. On the track and on the street. Lots and lots of our customers have used the HPS compound as an OEM replacement pad and we've gotten very few complaints over the years. For myself I run HP+ on my CTS-V and my Legacy GT year round. They work well for me on the street and on the track even in advanced HPDE groups. Very rarely have I overheated them on the track.

 

I would say we've installed about 80% of the cars we do brake jobs on with HPS pads, and we do about 1-2 brake jobs on subies a week for 10 years. So that's somewhere in the area of 800-1000 sets we've done.

 

The bed-in process and break-in process is key though. As with any upgrade from OEM one should follow the procedures for the part. We bring the car up to about 60mph and brake down to 5mph, repeat this about 7-10x til you can smell the brake pads, then allow them to cool for 20-30 min before driving on them again.

 

Can't say how they work on a Mini application but since this is a Subie site I can give my perspective of them on Subies.

 

-mike

[AZP Installs]

Oh and on the fluid, in any car you should be flushing the brake fluid every 2-3 years or more if you do a lot of spirited driving, brake fluid is hydroscopic and tends to absorb moisture. This leads to poor pedal feel especially in emergency/performance driving where the fluid temps rise enough to cause the absorbed moisture to evaporate creating air pockets in the lines.

 

Pedal feel is also a by-product of the system used. For instance, the pedal feel in a lot of sub-compact cars is great, especially something like a Chevy Cavalier. This hair-trigger pedal feel does not translate into better braking.

 

-mike

[Fossil2k2]

So if you have evenly worn tires, be them good or bad, your ABS won't kick in because the sensors won't see a speed differential between wheels.

 

I have a different understanding of how ABS works...

 

The systems vary slightly from vehicle to vehicle, but I believe most cars have a 4 wheel ABS system. When a wheel is about to lock up the rotation of the wheel slows dramatically. The speed sensors in each wheel identify that the rotational speed of a given wheel is slowing abnormally fast, at which point the ABS is activated for that wheel.

 

I don't think it has to do with one wheel slowing faster than another wheel.

 

If you have a tire with good contact patch and coefficient of friction it seems logical that you're tires would have a much higher threshold of holding on before the speed sensors in your ABS system think they're about to lock up.

 

Maybe your (fishbone) pads are completely inadequate in getting your tires to slow to limits of your tires, and that's why you can't get the ABS to engage. Beats me. I haven't driven your cars.

 

Personally, If I'm going 60+ down the highway on a dry, flat surface I'd rather have a combination of super sticky tires and good brakes, than have my ABS kick in. Completely different story if the road is covered in water or snow.

[bradlgt21]

Not a fan of hawk pads either, Running them right now and after a couple years I can be 100% sure now they are worse then stock. And every once in a while I convince myself that I have to break them in again, I do the whole burn in procedure and they go back to crap after a day.

[cypher0117]

Personally, If I'm going 60+ down the highway on a dry, flat surface I'd rather have a combination of super sticky tires and good brakes, than have my ABS kick in. Completely different story if the road is covered in water or snow.

 

+1

 

ABS modulation is too slow and doesn't keep your car at threshold braking levels, which will actually increase the distance it takes you to stop

[fishbone]

The only reason I mentioned ABS was due to the reasoning there should be enough braking force to at least bring the tires to the brink of it chattering.

Right now the pads feel like blocks of wood but they have improved lately.

[iNVAR]

I have a different understanding of how ABS works...

 

The systems vary slightly from vehicle to vehicle, but I believe most cars have a 4 wheel ABS system. When a wheel is about to lock up the rotation of the wheel slows dramatically. The speed sensors in each wheel identify that the rotational speed of a given wheel is slowing abnormally fast, at which point the ABS is activated for that wheel.

 

I don't think it has to do with one wheel slowing faster than another wheel.

 

If you have a tire with good contact patch and coefficient of friction it seems logical that you're tires would have a much higher threshold of holding on before the speed sensors in your ABS system think they're about to lock up.

That's my understanding too. Mike, are you sure about what you said?

 

+1

 

ABS modulation is too slow and doesn't keep your car at threshold braking levels, which will actually increase the distance it takes you to stop

I agree. ABS is meant to help you maintain steering control of your vehicle during a panic stop... NOT minimize braking distance.

 

I had this argument with someone about 9 years ago on a gaming forum. I had noticed that on my parents' 94 BMW 525i which had ABS that braking distance appeared to increase when ABS engaged and that I felt that often times it engaged prematurely, as opposed to my own car, a 1990 Volv0 740 with no ABS which I was able to bring right to the limit.

 

He insisted that what I observed was merely psychological and that it would take an professional race car driver to bring it to threshold levels consistently without causing full lock up, and that ABS greatly reduced braking distance except in gravel, snow, sand, where the material tends to pile up in front of the locked up wheel.

 

We politely agreed to disagree.

[AZP Installs]

Perhaps the early ABS systems worked off the rate of deceleration?

 

As far as I know almost all ABS systems work off the delta of the speed sensors, not the rate at which you are slowing down. Otherwise you would have ABS kicking in anytime you do a big-brake kit combined with Race tires on a street car.

 

For instance if it was the rate of deceleration or "abrupt" deceleration, then if you put on in an extreme example 335mm tires combined with Hawk Blue Race Pads and a BBK with an upgraded master cylinder, and tried to stop from say 150mph at the end of a front straight on a road course the ABS would kick in, which it doesn't. In fact using R compound tires reduces the amount of ABS kick-in that you get.

 

However let's examine when you are driving down a straight road, sand on the right side, clen on the left. If you slam on your brakes the ABS will kick in for the 2 wheels on the sand because their wheel speeds are significantly different than the left side ones and the ABS computer is assuming they are locking up.

 

That's how it was explained to me during my track training. Another myth that was debunked during my training was also the engine braking myth. There is no advantage to engine braking other than to help your local clutch installer/trans rebuilder make $

 

As for the ABS v. No-ABS arguement, on-track ABS is usually viewed as a positive thing for street cars and race cars alike. As long as the driver understands how to manipulate it/use it.

 

-mike

[Fossil2k2]

Perhaps the early ABS systems worked off the rate of deceleration?

 

As far as I know almost all ABS systems work off the delta of the speed sensors, not the rate at which you are slowing down. Otherwise you would have ABS kicking in anytime you do a big-brake kit combined with Race tires on a street car.

 

For instance if it was the rate of deceleration or "abrupt" deceleration, then if you put on in an extreme example 335mm tires combined with Hawk Blue Race Pads and a BBK with an upgraded master cylinder, and tried to stop from say 150mph at the end of a front straight on a road course the ABS would kick in, which it doesn't. In fact using R compound tires reduces the amount of ABS kick-in that you get.

 

Mike I think we're almost on the same page, except I'm thinking in fractions of a second, and much much more drastic changes in wheel rational speed.

 

The ABS "computer" monitors each wheel's speed sensor. When the driver applies the brakes the ABS computer begins to watch the speed sensor readings. The computer knows that a car going 60mph will slow down in several full seconds to come to a stop. The ABS computer is watching each wheel speed in fractions of a second and looking for decreases in speed that are irregular.

 

For example, if you have a wheel just spinning on a hub w/o the weight of a car behind it wouldn't take much to stop it from rotating very quickly. The ABS computer knows that if a wheel is spinning at a certain RPM and then a fraction of a second later it's spinning at 1/2 that RPM the wheel is about to lock up, so it triggers the ABS.

 

No tire and BBK combo will stop your wheels from spinning in a fraction of a second, which is why the ABS won't kick in.

 

However let's examine when you are driving down a straight road, sand on the right side, clen on the left. If you slam on your brakes the ABS will kick in for the 2 wheels on the sand because their wheel speeds are significantly different than the left side ones and the ABS computer is assuming they are locking up.

 

Also, I agree that in your example the wheels in the sand will activate the ABS, but I don't agree that it's beacuse of the different rate of rotation. You hit the brakes, all four corners of the car brake evenly, except the wheels in the sand will loose traction and start skidding on the sand and lock up before the wheels on the pavement. Sand, ice, snow, water and pavement all will provide different coefficient's of friction for braking. The lower the coefficient of friction the quicker the wheel will lock up under the same breaking pressure.

[maniaxzero]

I too dislike hawk pads. I replaced my pads with hawk hps 10k miles ago on my oem rotors. The best way to describe the pads is that they LACK initial bite. Their braking performance is mediocre at best. Now after 10k miles, the front pads are almost done. I dont think longevity is their strong suit either. Overall, I'm sure much better pads can be bought for the price of hawks. I too was convinced by the raving reviews of hawk pads on the forum, but after running them for 10k miles, I'm ready to switch to something more confidence inspiring

[SpecBGuy]

My OEM pads blew chunks almost literally. Maybe that just made me blow chunks. After repeatedly leaving material on the rotors requiring turning, uneven performance at different temperatures under NORMAL driving conditions with an OEM car led me to Hawk HPS.

 

At 200whp on OEM all weather tires HPS felt like a major upgrade (8 out of 10)

At 260whp on OEM size 300+ treadwear summer tires I had no real complains (7 out of 10)

At 300whp on roasted tires, the tires were the major issue. ?/10

At 360whp with full suspension on super sticky KDW2 245/35/18 with 'spensive fluid, SS lines and DBA4000 rotors they do not do the job anymore. (I managed to overheat my HPS going UP a mountain). (5 out of 10, they function okay but are a weak point in my car)

 

Starting to wonder if I should have listened to LegacyMUN from the start and gone with ProjectMu. (In my case a BBK is probably called for)

if your going BBK later on ill take your dba off your hands..

[lieutenantcolumbo]

I too dislike hawk pads. I replaced my pads with hawk hps 10k miles ago on my oem rotors. The best way to describe the pads is that they LACK initial bite. Their braking performance is mediocre at best. Now after 10k miles, the front pads are almost done. I dont think longevity is their strong suit either. Overall, I'm sure much better pads can be bought for the price of hawks. I too was convinced by the raving reviews of hawk pads on the forum, but after running them for 10k miles, I'm ready to switch to something more confidence inspiring

 

Those are exactly the kind of comments that scared me away from either of the Hawks, and there are a lot of them out there. Had some Z rated pads on my Camaro and the first couple stops were always an adventure.

Couldn't find Axxis Ultimates for f/r on the LGT so based on advice from brakewarehouse.com went with the StopTech Street Performance, SS Lines, and OEM Rotors. Occasionally I think you need to do a couple hard stops to re-bed them / clean them. If you get them soaked in the car wash they loose a little grip until you heat them up. No complaints, but I would prefer less dust.

[iNVAR]

mike i think we're almost on the same page, except i'm thinking in fractions of a second, and much much more drastic changes in wheel rational speed.

 

The abs "computer" monitors each wheel's speed sensor. When the driver applies the brakes the abs computer begins to watch the speed sensor readings. The computer knows that a car going 60mph will slow down in several full seconds to come to a stop. The abs computer is watching each wheel speed in fractions of a second and looking for decreases in speed that are irregular.

 

For example, if you have a wheel just spinning on a hub w/o the weight of a car behind it wouldn't take much to stop it from rotating very quickly. The abs computer knows that if a wheel is spinning at a certain rpm and then a fraction of a second later it's spinning at 1/2 that rpm the wheel is about to lock up, so it triggers the abs.

 

no tire and bbk combo will stop your wheels from spinning in a fraction of a second, which is why the abs won't kick in.

+1

[iNVAR]

I too dislike hawk pads. I replaced my pads with hawk hps 10k miles ago on my oem rotors. The best way to describe the pads is that they LACK initial bite. Their braking performance is mediocre at best. Now after 10k miles, the front pads are almost done. I dont think longevity is their strong suit either. Overall, I'm sure much better pads can be bought for the price of hawks. I too was convinced by the raving reviews of hawk pads on the forum, but after running them for 10k miles, I'm ready to switch to something more confidence inspiring

You're free to disagree, but I strongly believe that initial bite is not a good way to gauge a pad's quality. Some pads may have a very good initial bite, but may fade quickly under aggressive braking. Others might have bad initial bite but hold up excellently under heavy braking.

 

I drive in NYC, and under mixed spirited driving, highway, and traffic conditions, the pads have lasted about...20-25K miles. That was one of the first things I did when I bought the car used years back in 2008.

[fishbone]

Ok, so let me put it this way then.

On the same tires and with 3 year old brake fluid, the OEM MINI pads outstopped, on their way out I might add, the Hawk HPS with brand new brake fluid. And no, I don't have air in the system or any other excuse. The OEMs were better able to overcome static friction between the tires and the road and get the ABS to protest. They had superior initial bite and cold performance. Better in every aspect except possibly life and dust.

 

And I agree iNVAR that the initial bite is not a good way to gauge performance.

[iNVAR]

What are the stock pads on a Mini? ATE?

 

Also, I know I sound like a broken record, but there really is no way that the HPS pads are incapable of causing ABS to engage when you slam on the pedal while doing 60, UNLESS the HPS are fading immediately.

 

I've been reading your posts on the other forum:

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/tires-wheels-and-brakes/211736-what-is-up-with-hawk-hps-pads-on-the-mini-3.html

 

I will say this to you:

1) You left out on your OP here on LGT that your pedal hit the floor when you stood on it trying to engage ABS. As someone on NAM pointed out, that's not because of your pads.

 

2) You said your brakes were smoking which caused concern at a light when you were stopped. YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE STOPPED AND HAVE SMOKING BRAKES. You messed up the bedding procedure. Do it over.

 

"I can get the ABS to engage. I got brake fade obviously so on a couple of hard emergency stops I got the pedal to the floor and no ABS motions."

3) You boiled your fluid. You need to flush again. If your pedal hits the floor, you either have air in the fluid, or you boiled the fluid (which has the same effect as getting air in your fluid since it turns to gas.) Once fluid boils, its future boiling point is reduced which makes it more likely to boil next time.

 

4) You had Meineke do your stuff. Meineke!! Find an indy shop. But this is just my opinion. I don't trust those big name chain stores like Meineke, Firestone, AAMCO, etc.

 

5) And lastly, plenty of people participated in your thread saying the HPS pads worked well for them. None of them +1ed your experience with being unable to engage ABS and one person even pointed out the same thing I did.

 

Honestly, I basically have not driven a car made after the early 70's where I couldn't drive the brakes to lock up with just steady hard pedal pressure. Your description sounds like the pads are glazed over or oily or something; the prior info about the pedal hitting the floor really sounded like a hydraulic problem (usually master cylinder), unless you boiled the fluid with lots of spirited braking first.

[fishbone]

At this moment I don't have time to post a more elaborate response but I will say that I am getting the distinct impression you like getting on my case, for reasons unknown. First in tuning, now here. The bed-in procedure was followed as hawk recommended it. The last bed-in did NOT cause smoking.

The pedal never hits the floor, not anymore at least at operating temperature. When cold, the pedal does travel lower than I am comfortable. This also happens on the LGT. The shop in place I trust. It comes recommended from the same quoted boards, by the local Mini club, they have experience with these cars and good techs. We have several with JCW Coopers having done service there and were more than happy. I did not pick them willy-nilly.

And really, the system has been checked already. Everything checks out. Except the pads.

But you go ahead and continue to be in denial.

[iNVAR]

Sigh.

 

To be honest, I don't like getting on your case but you draw attention to yourself. What I dislike is misinformation, partial facts, unproven statements, and a reluctance for someone to admit s/he is wrong or made a mistake.

 

Admittedly, I probably am biased against you because my first encounter with you was over 2 years ago on YouTube when you claimed your stock LGT 5EAT was pulling 0-60 in under 6 without brake boosting. That doesn't happen. There were a whole slew of other threads where you got under my skin (not on purpose, of course) because of what you were claiming (HID lights and hot spots, not having trouble with your car in 2 years) or what you did (hijacking the sticky thread about knock for your own use).

 

With respect to this thread, I just came across it because I have Hawk HPS pads and I find them to be good pads. And also because I think what you're saying about being unable to engage ABS can't be due to the pads but I was willing to admit I was wrong. Brake pads aren't the same for all cars after all, even if its the same brand and line of pads. Maybe it's true...the Hawk HPS do absolutely suck on the Mini to the point where they can't cause ABS to engage. I don't know and I wanted to find out.

 

I emailed both my cousin and friend. Still waiting to hear back from my cousin but here's what my friend said:

I'm still on my original oem pads but I'm going to be replacing everything in the next week or two. I already have all the parts and I went with EBC reds as a recommendation from a vendor on our forums. They're good for the street and can handle a little bit extra heat for an occasional track day. Choosing pads was really a tough decision cuz there are just too many choices. In the Mini community the overall best recommendation was Carbotech using the Bobcats for the street. However I do really want to get to a track day and Bobcats cannot do track time at all. So I went with EBC's instead. But it seems Carbotech's Bobcat line really are great on the street. Look into them and see what you think

So I went searching for stuff on Google like "mini cooper hawk hps" to see what others were experiencing because I honestly wanted to help and learn for myself... WHY you would be experiencing the bad braking? That's when I came across your thread on NAM which had lots more information than what you've been giving us here and seemingly several things that you appeared to have done wrong.

 

You said the pedal hit the floor. That's not normal, for any car, with a properly working brake system. And now that I point it out, you're revising what you said and are saying it doesn't hit the floor. So you exaggerated? I'd like for you to try something. Stomp on your brake pedal while the car is on and parked. Does the pedal sink really low? Is it still close to the floor? If so, it's not your pad. It also still sounds like you boiled your fluid. What I said doesn't change. Boil your fluid = you better replace your fluid.

 

You said your brakes were smoking when you stopped at a light, but now that I point out that you should never do that during break in, you're backpeddling.

 

I'm not stalking you... I just have a really good memory, honest to god. I'm not trying to catch you in a "Haha, I caught you, you're lying!" or "You're wrong!" moment or something ridiculous like that.

 

I'm posting because if someone's going to spread information, it should be the right information. And if someone's looking for help, he should be reporting the facts as they are, not bits and pieces and half-truths. And if someone makes a mistake, he should admit it and not be stubborn.

 

So yes, I'm skeptical of things you say. I'm sorry if I come across as brash and it seems like I'm looking for your posts just to be a pain in your a55. I'm not targeting you but I guess your posts just bother me.

[ShadowImg]

I'll trust Hawk pads when they start listing friction coefficients and temperature ranges. Until then, I'm sticking with my Carbotech Bobcats. They list a steady ~.45 for the entire range and temperatures from 0-900F. I've found them to be quite reliable. My dad did Hawk HPS on his Legacy with Brembo OE blanks. I wasn't a fan, as I found the braking to be too unpredictable.

[fishbone]

iNVAR, if you were curious about that thread you could have just asked me for the link, I am not trying to hide anything. I wanted to keep the discussion about the Mini to a minimum since this was about the Hawks on the Legacy, on a Legacy board. But, since you brought up that thread, let's quote the other side of the coin as well. Here are some statements.

 

-same experience, drive hard in the canyons, will bleed and report.

 

-We've seen the Hawks not have good cold bite several times, heck one car wouldn't even get the ABS to activate so we don't recommend them. (this came from Way Motor Works btw)

 

-Hated my HPS pads and replaced them with the Cool Carbon pads from Bavarian Auto and love them. Best daily driver pad I have ever had. Same reason the OP and Way have mentioned......lousy performance. Real quick to fade, lousy when cold, very poor initial bite when they did warm up.

-We have the same pads on a G35, and as the members have previously mentioned above, they suck arse. I would not recommend them on any car. We are switching back to OEM, when they wear out.

 

-Tire Rack recommended them to me and they are terrible. It feels like I have bars of soap for pads. When I complained to Tire Rack they told me it took a while for them to break in but I've had them for some time and they stink. I hadn't realized how bad they are until I drove my wife's Mazdaspeed MX-5 and just tapped the brakes. They actually work!

 

-Oh look, a Subaru owner! I had HPS on my Subaru for a long time (properly bedded) and really did not like them. They were worse than the crappy Subaru stock pads. Poor bite, even worse when it's cold, and yet they still can't take any heat. Basically the worst of all worlds.

 

-Not loving my HPS at all honestly. Wish I would of gone with something else.

 

-I had a wife that I'd let drive a car with Hawk ceramics. I wouldn't let my present wife near them.

Thrown in for some good humor even though he's talking about Ceramics, not HPS. Still, an issue!

 

Alex at Tire Rack writes this

In my personal experiance, I do each step of Hawk's sugested burnish 5 times, rather than 3. It takes about 200 street miles after burnishing to achieve full braking potential.

Do you consider following through a bed-in procedure FIVE TIMES to be normal on an outstanding set of pads? I do not. Not even close.

And people agree with me:

 

-Any thread even remotely like this would send me running for the exits to a different pad/compound.

TireRack, I saw your earlier post, but I really can't see selling product w/ these kinds of real life customer reactions. I read the thread as not isolated to a single car model or user experience, but rather a fair sampling.

 

The performance reports across several posters really aren't even close to acceptable for a street pad, nor should they be finicky like that for so much bedding in. Just not acceptable tradeoffs relative to OEM if the goal is lower dust or some kind of better street performance. And, any car no matter how mundane that has a pedal that sinks to the floor has an issue somewhere--typically air in the system or boiled fluid if subjected to repeated stops, though of course if worn it could possibly be master cylinder. Regardless of the cause, not an acceptable result ever for the most important basic safety system in the car.

 

-Alex also recommended the HPCeramics to me. I agree with you, MP1.6T. I've had many cars, street, semi-race, and beaters and used many different brake pads, mostly stock but some high performance. I've never had problems with brakes before and believe that any brake pad that needs the fussing that Alex recommends for Hawks for street use is a hazard and an inherently defective product.

 

 

I am not backpeddaling on anything. I did not, however, hang on every word when I initially posted these issues because I was not expecting to be put on the defensive so I did choose some poor ones. "Hitting the floor" is a wrong description. In hindsight I can see now how that would be interpreted as the pedal going to the floor like a clutch pedal. There is hydraulic resistance, what I am saying is I can squeeze that mofo down and the pads don't seem to do much.

 

Now, you said I screwed up by getting the pads to smoke. That is one point of view. Another point of view is, not only is this normal, but the CORRECT way to bed pads in, as I was told in that thread

http://www.essexparts.com/learning-center/cat/brake-pads/post/Bed-in?v=2

So, two guys on the internet ... who am I supposed to believe

For the record, I did NOT follow that procedure. I followed Hawk's.

 

I'd like for you to try something. Stomp on your brake pedal while the car is on and parked. Does the pedal sink really low? Is it still close to the floor? If so, it's not your pad

When cold, if I squeeze it, it does, same as on the Legacy. Now, when warm, if I hit it, it sinks in 40% before you have to really start applying force against pressure.

So the difference is: stomping them I can't sink, squeezing them yes.

 

I'm not stalking you... I just have a really good memory, honest to god

No, you don't. You told me in the Tuning section you were frustrated because I opened a bajillion threads when I in fact have one thread open.

I guess your posts just bother

I believe that is the root of the issue. We either got off the wrong foot or there's something else you find abbrasive about what I write. Either way, I think the best thing is to take it to PM and just spill it out.

[fishbone]

The original idea behind this thread was to hear from others what they think after a SECOND car is proving that Hawks gave me mediocre performance at best.

I was basically trying to point out "your mileage may vary" and these things are not a guaranteed success as I was led to believe.