Anyone seriously not happy with their Hawk pads?

[fishbone]

Temps here dip in the single digits during winter, that's why I said none of tha warming up crap anymore

[T-Rexky]

I have curiously visited this thread and read many of the posts. I don't mean to start a flame war, but I get a feeling that there are many people here that secretly wanted a mythical BBK like the Brembo. Somehow this BBK would be absolutely perfect in all respects, but instead people invested in the HPS pads and perhaps having unreasonably high expectations are now disappointed.

 

What's my story? I never found the stock brakes on my '08 Spec.B bad. They had a vague pedal feel and not the greatest modulation, but they could stop the car reasonably well when requested. What I did not like about stock is the deposits that the pads were dumping on the rotors that required rotor changes every 12 to 18 months in order to eliminate the steering wheel vibration. I also didn't like the insane initial bite from the brakes when the rotors were wet from rain. Fast forward to today.

 

Getting tired of all the rotor replacements I bought a set of DBA 4000 rotors and HPS pads about a year ago. At the same time I replaced the factory brake fluid with Motul 5.1. In my opinion, the result is a definite improvement, but I did not expect a biblical transformation of my brake system into an STI class Brembo setup. The pedal feel is much improved, the modulation is very much improved and the subjective (ie. not measured in a controlled way) braking capability is definitely better. As I mentioned elsewhere on the forums I can quite easily have the ABS come on at 50 mph with a decent set of tires on the car. So my opinion is that the DBA plus HPS is a good improvement.

 

Some other observations on my setup are, in no particular order:

• There is no brake noise, except occasional squeak when wet.
  
• There is virtually no visible dusting on my medium gray rims.
  
• So far no vibration after almost a year - fingers crossed.
  
• The pads get definitely better when warmed up - on cold days the initial stop is just okay, then it improves notably as some heat goes into the brakes.
  
• The brakes can be scary in winter when driving long distance in heavy snow/slush on the highway. Sometimes the first half a second of brake application results in no real braking effort, but then it rapidly builds up to normal performance in perhaps another half a second. This is not an issue for me since I always leave a safe distance in front of me and under these conditions there is limited traction to begin with.
  
• The HPS pads take a considerable amount of time to settle down on the rotors. The bed-in procedure is just a start, then they gradually improve over perhaps 500 to 1000 miles (mostly country driving - may be faster in the city). I switch between two cars all the time, and it becomes very obvious how the brakes evolve - they have gone from "not quite as good" as the other car (Focus SVT with very good brakes) just after the bedding process to "definitely better" than the other car.
  

 

When I got this setup I was undecided between the HPS and the Bobcats. This time I picked the HPS, but the next time I will likely get the Bobcats to see how much difference there is. Ultimately I am pleased with the outcome and I feel that it is a worthwhile improvement over stock.

 

TR

[fishbone]

but instead people invested in the HPS pads and perhaps

I don't think wanting a pad that performs a least at OEM level when cold is an unreasonable expectation.

[T-Rexky]

I don't think wanting a pad that performs a least at OEM level when cold is an unreasonable expectation.

 

I completely agree with you. However, I am perplexed by the conflicting opinions regarding this aspect.

 

Where I live, the temperature drops to around -30 Fahrenheit for a few days every year. My Spec.B has been on the HPS pads with DBA rotors for almost a year and the SVT Focus has been on the HPS pads with Centric Premium rotors for over two years. We have never had any issues with the setup even on the coldest winter days. Both cars ride on ultra high performance winter rubber between November and April, and the rubber is the limiting factor on both.

 

So it is either the expectations, or there is a missing variable in this equation, such as production quality scatter.

 

TR

[CL21376]

I don't think wanting a pad that performs a least at OEM level when cold is an unreasonable expectation.

 

In the Car and Driver tech article I posted the HPS pads out stopped the factory Miata pads on the first cycle of the test (eg cold).

 

How are you measuring your pads cold performance?

[fishbone]

CL: I am measuring cold performance by how much better they feel/work when they are warm. In my humble, non-racer opinion, there shouldn't be a difference. Or rather, the difference shouldn't be that significant for a street-rated pad.

 

T-Rexky: you are comparing Spec.B brakes and/or aftermarket rotors to a bone stock plain-Jane GT brake set-up. Who knows, maybe the HPS work better with the aftermarket rotors.

[N.sane]

I've had my LGT brake swap with Hawk HPS with DBA 4000 slotted rotors for 2 years now, no complaints. They get the job done in daily driving and always had adequate power during hard/emergency braking. No vibrations either. The only noise they make is a slight squeal when they're cold.

 

I've got Carbotech Bobcats on order so we'll see how they compare once I get them installed.

[fishbone]

Please do come back with opinions since I'm considering Carbotechs myself.

[iNVAR]

I'm telling you... we need to get a bunch of LGTs together that are running different brakes, with owners that have different opinions, and just drive them and see how they feel. This is waaaaay too subjective... sigh.

[AZP Installs]

CL: I am measuring cold performance by how much better they feel/work when they are warm. In my humble, non-racer opinion, there shouldn't be a difference. Or rather, the difference shouldn't be that significant for a street-rated pad.

 

T-Rexky: you are comparing Spec.B brakes and/or aftermarket rotors to a bone stock plain-Jane GT brake set-up. Who knows, maybe the HPS work better with the aftermarket rotors.

 

Spec B brakes are the same as Legacy GT brakes.

 

-mike

 

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg

AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | T-1 Certified Amsoil Dealer

"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[fishbone]

But not with DBA rotors.

[iNVAR]

It's not a difference of rotors because I have stock blank rotors and so do many other people, and they feel differently about their Hawks than you and others do. It has to be a matter of subjective bias, possibly by both parties.

[fishbone]

It has to be a matter of subjective bias

Or quality control.

If you can spot me the mistakes in the little Mini experiment, I'm all ears because I thought that was pretty conclusive. Back to stock and the car stops much better. There is nothing subjective about stopping like crap.

I'm telling you... we need to get a bunch of LGTs together that are running different brakes, with owners that have different opinions, and just drive them and see how they feel. This is waaaaay too subjective... sigh.

Let me explain this again since apparently I wasn't clear enough the last 20 times since we're still talking about subjective here.

The first stop out of the garage at 40mph in the Mini with full braking force the car would drag to a stop all the while with a feeling as if the rotors were greasy. I have done nothing else except swap the pads and if I squeeze the pedal now with the same force my wife takes a bite out of the dash. I had a tech look at the HPS. They are not glazed, just like I thought. They look normal.

We don't need to get a bunch of anything together. Just accept the fact that there are a few of us out there with a shared experience that tells the same story.

I've got no dog in this fight. I simply bought my first ever in my life Hawk anything and put them on the Legacy since I've read good things about them here. Then not knowing better I tried them on the Mini and they downright sucked. So I figured I'd bring my experience to light and see what others say.

I'm not doubting what you and others write. You like them, I am happy for you. Clearly you got the good batch.

[fishbone]

My HPS pads are fairly dust, on the stock rims. Are your rims aftermarket and perhaps darker

See, we can't even agree on whether or not they are dusty. My rims are clean after weeks of use.

[fahr_side]

See, we can't even agree on whether or not they are dusty. My rims are clean after weeks of use.

Hmm. Could be that they don't dust because they don't work! I usually wash my car once a week whether it needs it or not, and if I have been driving the car hard there is a bit of dust on the rims. Not a lot by any means, but it's there.

 

I am kind of siding with you in thinking the Mini might just not have enough mass to warm the brakes up in a reasonable time. I'm in a WRX and I live at the top of a hill, so no matter what the weather the brakes are warm by the time I get to the bottom.

[fishbone]

Clearly, I need to move. The first stop is actually at the top of a hill

[iNVAR]

Maybe you just don't understand what subjective means.

 

1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective).

2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.

 

3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

Or quality control.

If you can spot me the mistakes in the little Mini experiment, I'm all ears because I thought that was pretty conclusive. Back to stock and the car stops much better. There is nothing subjective about stopping like crap.

 

Let me explain this again since apparently I wasn't clear enough the last 20 times since we're still talking about subjective here.

Subjective is the part where you come in. You're the one that presents your opinion on how it feels. Whether or not you can be impartial, I have no idea. I'm assuming that you are trying your best to be as objective about it as possible.

 

The mind is a curious thing and can play tricks on you. Should you find it insulting that I would suggest that? No. Does that make you stupid? No. It makes you human, just like me. I'm certain I'm being biased too. I like the HPS pads, and I feel that I'm "right" so naturally I'm going to defend them. But what's more important is the different expectation you and I may have from the pads. Maybe I just have really low standards. Maybe you have high standards. Maybe I have a strong leg. Maybe you have a weak leg. The point is, I don't know, and we won't know unless a bunch of us switch cars around just to see.

 

I understand that to you, all that matters is what you perceive/experience/feel/whatever but it's more than that for me. There's a concrete and definitive answer and we haven't found it yet...whether it be a quality control issue like you suggested, or if we all just have different expectations.

 

The first stop out of the garage at 40mph in the Mini with full braking force the car would drag to a stop all the while with a feeling as if the rotors were greasy. I have done nothing else except swap the pads and if I squeeze the pedal now with the same force my wife takes a bite out of the dash. I had a tech look at the HPS. They are not glazed, just like I thought. They look normal.

That's all well and good. I'm not disputing that your stock pads are better. I have no idea what your stock pads are actually like nor do I have a basis for comparison.

 

We don't need to get a bunch of anything together. Just accept the fact that there are a few of us out there with a shared experience that tells the same story.

 

I've got no dog in this fight. I simply bought my first ever in my life Hawk anything and put them on the Legacy since I've read good things about them here. Then not knowing better I tried them on the Mini and they downright sucked. So I figured I'd bring my experience to light and see what others say.

I'm not doubting what you and others write. You like them, I am happy for you. Clearly you got the good batch.

 

You're content with not having an actual answer for such varied experience with Hawk HPS pads. I'm not. I actually want to know why there's such wide variation. You're running Hawk HPS on your LGT and say it sucks. I say they don't. There are plenty of people on both sides. The only real way to tell if it's all in our heads (i.e. bias or just different levels of expectations) is to actually drive each others' cars.

[fahr_side]

I'm not disputing that your stock pads are better. I have no idea what your stock pads are actually like nor do I have a basis for comparison.

I've driven a Mini or two and literally hundreds of BMWs. They all have very simple brake systems with one or two-piston sliding calipers and modestly sized solid disks... nothing fancy at all. Despite the simplicity they all stop with zero fuss, surprise, or noise, and they do this is in every driving condition you can imagine. Yes, you can overdrive them, but you can overdrive any brake system on the market. For OEM, they are amazingly good, and considering the modest specifications one can only conclude that the parts used, while boring to look at, are very well made indeed. The only thing I'd ever think to complain about would be dust, and that would be extremely picky.

 

If Bendix or whoever makes their pads would put out a product for the Subaru I'd certainly give them a try.

[matt]

I have curiously visited this thread and read many of the posts. I don't mean to start a flame war, but I get a feeling that there are many people here that secretly wanted a mythical BBK like the Brembo. Somehow this BBK would be absolutely perfect in all respects, but instead people invested in the HPS pads and perhaps having unreasonably high expectations are now disappointed.

 

<snipped>

 

I have a bad impression of the HPS but I think most of what you said is spot on. Especially:

 

A) Uneven deposits from the stock LGT pads drove me NUTS. My mom's Forester is even worse. I think stock Subaru pads just blow when it comes to deposits (STI aside).

 

B) I experienced fade with the stock pads on the street. Not fluid-boiling-no-brakes fade, but actual pad fade. Granted it was during very high speed driving on a very straight road far from any population centers, but still, it was NOT reassuring.

 

C) Unrealistic expectations. After all the praise for SS lines and fresh DOT4 fluid I saw on here I expected braking nirvana when I did pads+rotors+lines+fluid, and was disappointed when the brakes were still mushy (albeit much better performing). In hindsight it's obvious that rubber lines and DOT3 fluid are not the cause of the LGT's mushiness on the street, but as they say hindsight is 20/20.

 

D) As mentioned I have a bad impression of Hawk HPS, but I 100% believe that they're better than the stock pads. Then again I think I've pooped better pads than the stockers.

 

 

I've driven a Mini or two and literally hundreds of BMWs. They all have very simple brake systems with one or two-piston sliding calipers and modestly sized solid disks... nothing fancy at all. Despite the simplicity they all stop with zero fuss, surprise, or noise, and they do this is in every driving condition you can imagine. Yes, you can overdrive them, but you can overdrive any brake system on the market. For OEM, they are amazingly good, and considering the modest specifications one can only conclude that the parts used, while boring to look at, are very well made indeed. The only thing I'd ever think to complain about would be dust, and that would be extremely picky.

 

I've noticed this too. BMW brakes look quite normal (135i and its 6pot Brembos aside) but still feel and perform better than those in most cars, especially Subarus (STI aside ). I too think the pads deserve much (not all) of that credit.

 

I've also noticed that BMW pads dust a lot for street pads. My STI's OEM pads dust a lot too, and the STI's brakes feel great. I don't think that's a coincidence. (Yes, yes, the Brembos, master cylinder, etc all play a huge role in how they feel too.)

 

I'm guessing it's like tire wear - some tires have a better tradeoff between wear and grip than others but ultimately there is a tradeoff. Lately I've been thinking that even street brake pads are the same way.

 

 

 

Btw autocrossers or anyone wanting lots of cold bite, there are pads designed just for you. Carbotech has the AX6, and I'm sure many other brands have something similar. I've never tried any such pads so I can't speak for their effectiveness or quietness, but they are out there. In fact from what I've read about the HP+ I bet it's a good autocross pad, if you don't mind the noise.

[fishbone]

Maybe you just don't understand what subjective means.

Trust me, I understand that just fine.

You're the one that presents your opinion on how it feels.

I've separated feel from performance. The stockers "feel" better because they bite better than the Hawks. Everyone knows this is not an indication of better stopping. An indication of better stopping is stopping abruptly in a shorter distance vs dragging to a halt. That's what I've experienced.

I find nothing of what you write insulting personally but you're trying to cling to convictions and question my experience.

At this point like you said I could not possibly care less what the issue is with the Hawks. The only thing that I can think remains is simply quality control. The beauty of the market is that I can stop worrying about it and move onto other products and never buy Hawk again. I have better things to worry about.

I understand that to you, all that matters is what you perceive/experience/feel/whatever but it's more than that for me.

And you understand wrong, because I try to be as objective and pragmatic as possible. If I were to be subjective I would have simply dumped the pads from the start and not gone through 2 flushes and several bed-in attempts. How can you dismiss all of that as subjective when I'm telling you this damn car stops better, harder, quicker with no other change except the pads? What is subjective about being able to make it stand on the front two wheels the first time I hit the brakes versus what I was putting up with before.

The Legacy is now vibrating during hard stops which means uneven pad deposit on the rotors. I've never had a car do this before, not even the Legacy itself on the stock pads.

 

That's all well and good. I'm not disputing that your stock pads are better. I have no idea what your stock pads are actually like nor do I have a basis for comparison.

If you want to get an idea what they are like, drive a Nissan sometimes. Kind of an on-off feeling, ZERO spongy feel.

Speaking of spongy feel, that's another great thing the Hawks contributed to the system. How a set of PADS can make a spongy pedal is beyond my understanding of braking systems but like I said, it's all water under the bridge at this point.

The Hawks on the LGT don't suck, they are mediocre at best and I'm just not happy with them anymore. It's on the Mini that they sucked BIG time.

[fishbone]

I've driven a Mini or two and literally hundreds of BMWs. They all have very simple brake systems with one or two-piston sliding calipers and modestly sized solid disks... nothing fancy at all. Despite the simplicity they all stop with zero fuss, surprise, or noise, and they do this is in every driving condition you can imagine. Yes, you can overdrive them, but you can overdrive any brake system on the market. For OEM, they are amazingly good, and considering the modest specifications one can only conclude that the parts used, while boring to look at, are very well made indeed. The only thing I'd ever think to complain about would be dust, and that would be extremely picky.

 

If Bendix or whoever makes their pads would put out a product for the Subaru I'd certainly give them a try.

The Mini is amazingly good in many aspects. Braking is just one of the ingredients in a recipe for a car that is for all intents and purposes a street-legal go-cart. Surgically precise pedals, steering with zero travel or slack and a stiff but unpunishing suspension are the few others. Just writing this for others, since you already know it

And you are right, the braking system on the Mini is amazingly simple and straight-forward. I was able to swap all corners very quickly and beat myself for paying a shop to have it done.

[iNVAR]

And you understand wrong, because I try to be as objective and pragmatic as possible. If I were to be subjective I would have simply dumped the pads from the start and not gone through 2 flushes and several bed-in attempts. How can you dismiss all of that as subjective when I'm telling you this damn car stops better, harder, quicker with no other change except the pads? What is subjective about being able to make it stand on the front two wheels the first time I hit the brakes versus what I was putting up with before.

 

The Legacy is now vibrating during hard stops which means uneven pad deposit on the rotors. I've never had a car do this before, not even the Legacy itself on the stock pads.

You're blurring the two issues. I'm pretty much done talking about your Mini. You ran your experiment, you said stock is better, I'll take your word for it. Not having any basis for comparison, I have no other choice but to take your word that that is in fact your experience. As I said, I know you're trying to be as objective as possible, but the reality of the situation is as long as a human is involved and there's no way to replace you with a machine that brakes with the same exact foot pressure, there's going to be at least a small component of human bias in it. There's no way around it. In other words, you said you're braking with the same braking pressure. And I absolutely believe that you are trying your damndest to do that. Whether or not you're actually doing that and not subconsciously braking harder with the stock pads, I have absolutely no idea. Again, I believe you have nothing but the best of intentions in your experiment, and I appreciate that you went through all the trouble and effort. You got your answer out of it, so I that's good enough for you.

 

For me, the more relevant part of the discussion is performance of HPS pads on the Legacy. You're finding pad deposits. I find no pad deposits. On the contrary, stock pads left deposits on the rotors readily whereas HPS pads don't for me.

 

You say there's no dust. I say there's lots of dust. I'm on a set of stock silver 17" LGT rims. If you'd like, I'll take pictures of the brake dust for everyone to see.

 

 

Speaking of spongy feel, that's another great thing the Hawks contributed to the system. How a set of PADS can make a spongy pedal is beyond my understanding of braking systems but like I said, it's all water under the bridge at this point.

Beats me. I didn't find that to be the case at all. The pedal felt the same, maybe slightly improved, when I went from Stock to HPS.

 

See? These differences are why I would love to meet up with a group of LGT people and just swap cars.

[fishbone]

And what beats me is why would there be such drastic quality control issues if it came to that. Do these guys build the pads in China?

[iNVAR]

The only way I can see pads making the pedal feel spongier in any situation is if it's compressing, whether it be the teflon shims integrated into the backing plate, the backing plate itself, or the friction material. Or the springs on the pads are too strong and pushing the pistons back. Something has to be "giving" in order to cause mushiness. Hmm...

[fishbone]

Nothing that I could find. The pads were installed correctly. I was hoping I'd find something hooked up wrong to at least have someting to blame, but no such luck.