whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 get something like bridgestonre re-71r or dunlop z2 star specs. stop buying summer tires based on tread life. the only important thing is grip for summers. go on tirerack and look under the extreme performance summer category. If your tires dont grip well, how do you expect your suspension to perform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCrash Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 get something like bridgestonre re-71r or dunlop z2 star specs. stop buying summer tires based on tread life. the only important thing is grip for summers. go on tirerack and look under the extreme performance summer category. If your tires dont grip well, how do you expect your suspension to perform? OK dont beat me up, this is why I come here, to learn more. I've only had the car less than a year and I'm the type who will use everything till its last day unless I need it. thanks for the tips, I'll look into some better tires for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I might even go as far as to say, you may be happy with the car with no suspension upgrades at all, and just the correct tires. that is how much of a difference they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I might even go as far as to say, you may be happy with the car with no suspension upgrades at all, and just the correct tires. that is how much of a difference they make. You haven't driven a stock 5th Gen GT. It's scary!!!! GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I , with stock suspension on R-comps. im sure the 5th gen GT is a breeze compared to that. guess how well i did because tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 With all due respect whitetiger, your presence on these boards in the realm vehicle handling and suspension expertise is well respected, and I always take your posts seriously and consider the wisdom with which you speak, however, Subaru seriously dropped the ball with the springs and shocks that they put on the 2010-2012 Legacys, even the GT's. Why else would they stiffen everything 15% for the 2013-2014 model years. There is NO comparision between the handling capabilities of any 4th Gen and the early 5th Gen models. The early 5th Gen springs and shocks SUCKED BALLS!! The best set of tires is not going to fix insufficient rebound dampening or the fact that the springs are too soft for a car with the wheel base and width that the 5th Gen has. I liken it to a 1978 Cadillac Coupe de Ville. Seriously. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Compared to the stock 4th gen outback suspension, i think the 5th gen LGT is probably better. Let me introduce you to body roll Edited July 20, 2015 by whitetiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 And 15% stiffer is meaningless unless tires are equal. Seriously, give me a 2010 gt with the right tires and it will run circles around a 2013 gt with all-seasons. Bottom line is grip must first be maximized before chassis response is improved. when you push the grip limit far beyond what it used to be, you become more confident with existing chassis roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Seriously, give me a 2010 gt with the right tires and it will run circles around a 2013 gt with all-seasons. I would if there was a 2013 GT to give you. Yes, I agree with you. But tire grip won't help you much when you're going 50mph through a sweeper with a nice dip in the middle and the rear end becomes so unsettled from said dip and the resulting oscillating pogo affect (3 cycles) that you can't even maintain your trajectory through the corner. I had a few sphincter pucker experiences at speed that I do not EVER want to experience again. Same corner with same tires and a Koni/H&R combo and I could drive thru it 15mph faster with no pucker. Edited July 20, 2015 by GTEASER GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 touche, f'ing subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCrash Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 This is what I like about this forum, everyones trying to get the best result the right way! Lot of good information right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 FWIW I think the best $/Mph thru corners mod on these cars is a RSB. for the price of 2 good tires my car became a completely different vehicle. even with 215 snow tires it would out perform my 225 summers (stockers, not that they are great) with the stock RSB by leaps and bounds. there was so much body roll before hand any bump mid corner would really toss the car around like Joe said. not to mention how much confidence you gain when you lose 10 degrees of body roll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 FWIW I think the best $/Mph thru corners mod on these cars is a RSB. for the price of 2 good tires my car became a completely different vehicle. even with 215 snow tires it would out perform my 225 summers (stockers, not that they are great) with the stock RSB by leaps and bounds. there was so much body roll before hand any bump mid corner would really toss the car around like Joe said. not to mention how much confidence you gain when you lose 10 degrees of body roll not to knock your experiences, but you have no way to quantify your claims. It not like you were driving on the limit on public roads to do this comparison. If you have never driven on extreme performance summer tires, this is just conjecture. Better tires will always give you more confidence than a few mm more rear roll resistance. It is true though that winter tires often grip better than crappy summer tires. Tirerack.com i think did a test where dunlop winter sport M3 performance winters were only 2 sec off the pace of autox level summer tire on a road course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCrash Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 not to knock your experiences, but you have no way to quantify your claims. It not like you were driving on the limit on public roads to do this comparison. If you have never driven on extreme performance summer tires, this is just conjecture. Better tires will always give you more confidence than a few mm more rear roll resistance. It is true though that winter tires often grip better than crappy summer tires. Tirerack.com i think did a test where dunlop winter sport M3 performance winters were only 2 sec off the pace of autox level summer tire on a road course. I heard that with a 24mm RSB and 26mm FSB I would be able to achieve up to 2 g's of force on hairpin turns with zero understeer. jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 As someone who has never beat on his car (before or after the 20mm RSB went in), I can say that it does make the car feel subjectively "better" or more confident. Doesn't mean it actually performs any better (and with a $600 set of unnecessarily wide summer tires and stock alignment specs, it may well be worse), but for the $100 my folks spent on it for a Christmas present, I'm pretty happy. I'm also trying to figure out how to upgrade the springs and dampers without turning into a snowplow come wintertime. Two sets of suspension sounds like it may suck less than trying to adjust ride height on coils after driving on salty roads, but it still sounds like a pain. Not sure if the stiffer RSB actually makes the lack of damping more noticeable (side-to-side oscillations becoming more up-and-down), or if it's just a gateway drug... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 not to knock your experiences, but you have no way to quantify your claims. It not like you were driving on the limit on public roads to do this comparison. speak for yourself. I like to take the ramp from one highway to another (it's right near wear i do my pulls also) absolutely as fast as i can before either under or oversteer. stock suspension + summer tires i could get around 65 coming out of the tightest section of the turn before i would get understeer. winter tires + 21mm RSB i could easily get 70-72 ( except it ended in a much more fun and controllable oversteer). now with my current set up (summer tire + RSB) i can get around 75-76 before oversteer... but your right you're probably the only person who thinks critically, it's not like that is my job or anything... oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 speak for yourself. I like to take the ramp from one highway to another (it's right near wear i do my pulls also) absolutely as fast as i can before either under or oversteer. stock suspension + summer tires i could get around 65 coming out of the tightest section of the turn before i would get understeer. winter tires + 21mm RSB i could easily get 70-72 ( except it ended in a much more fun and controllable oversteer). now with my current set up (summer tire + RSB) i can get around 75-76 before oversteer... but your right you're probably the only person who thinks critically, it's not like that is my job or anything... oh wait... so you are saying that if you went 77, you would have crashed off the road, because you drive on the absolute grip limit when you take offramps. And you said your summers were just the crappy stockers, not the kind of summer tires im referring to. Plus you have presented no racing experience, so there can be no assumption that your driving is consistent. Just because you have more confidence, does not mean you have increased your grip limit. Only tires can do this. Take the bar out, put a driver with racing experience in that seat and he'll get 80mph on that turn because he has more confidence than you and can push it to the limit. I see this all the time at autox events. anecdotal evidence is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 As someone who has never beat on his car (before or after the 20mm RSB went in), I can say that it does make the car feel subjectively "better" or more confident. Doesn't mean it actually performs any better (and with a $600 set of unnecessarily wide summer tires and stock alignment specs, it may well be worse), but for the $100 my folks spent on it for a Christmas present, I'm pretty happy. Proper tires will always be better even with the stock alignment specs. And im not saying bars are bad, but if maximizing grip is the name of the game(which is its) then bars are the last thing you do, since they reduce grip for the sake of handling characteristics. if under-steer is the issue, then adding front end grip is the proper solution. if you put a rear bar in, you are decreasing rear grip to match the front to balance the car out, which in turn is lowing the overall grip limit of the car. I'm also trying to figure out how to upgrade the springs and dampers without turning into a snowplow come wintertime. Two sets of suspension sounds like it may suck less than trying to adjust ride height on coils after driving on salty roads, but it still sounds like a pain. Not sure if the stiffer RSB actually makes the lack of damping more noticeable (side-to-side oscillations becoming more up-and-down), or if it's just a gateway drug... just do the shocks if you dont want to go too low. if you want 2 set of strut assemblies for the winter/summer, you can go that route, but swapping them in can become tedious if you are lazy. Coils are not really meant to be raised or lowered like that, but you could do it if you wanted to. And yes, because a bar is a torsion spring, adding spring force when the body rolls, it will make the lack of damping more apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 OOYY VEYY!! i don't need to race a shit ton to be a good driver 1. i don't need to crash off the road to reach the limit of grip 2. your tires are not the only thing that can increase road grip 3. your a freak ass 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 and btw i did get 80 out of that turn but it was a 4 wheel drift and i was talking about before tire's breaking free as obviously tires are the only thing that matter to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The tires I went with are taller than the stockers (245/45R18 up from 225/45R18), which is good for making the speedo read more accurately, but they add about .3" to the ride height. Wasn't necessarily looking for moar low on the stock tire size, but the extra height almost looks goofy. I definitely want better damping, and it almost seems like a waste to not do anything about the springs. I could go with '14 springs, as those are a little stiffer, but for the price, I may as well pick up a set of H&Rs or something while I'm at it. Swapping back and forth would be a pain, but if I already have the wheels off to swap to the winter set, I may as well do the struts while I'm in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zee199969 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 ^you'd also have to get it aligned every time you swap out the struts My "Build" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2baru Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Fwiw. I have driven both of my friends STOCK EvoX's on the exact same autoX course. Only difference was one had the stock tires and the other was re760 high performance tire. I literally was 2.2-2.5 faster just from tires. So when talking "grip" I'll take the tire solution over adding parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 ^you'd also have to get it aligned every time you swap out the struts Yeah, that's the other concern. Not a deal-breaker, but I'd have to figure out where I wanted to go for a lifetime alignment package. Not sure if that's generally a per-store thing or a per-chain thing, but that's another consideration. If I'm going to prove that I have more dollars than sense, I may as well go whole-hog, y'know? Also, I feel like the main disconnect in this thread is that whitetiger is speaking in terms of driving at 10/10ths on an autocross circuit, and the rest of us (or at least in the royal "we" sense) are looking to have the car feel planted and confident at 3-4/10ths, which is as much as we (I) see on a regular basis. If all you do on a daily basis is drive to and from work on smooth pavement, a $100 RSB band-aid may be all you need. Throw frost heaves and potholes into the mix, and dampers may become an issue, as you'll effectively be oversprung if you hit a bump with only one side of the car. Increase damping, and you'll end up undersprung, so you gotta do something about that. Tl;dr- can't we all just get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 just do the shocks if you dont want to go too low. Totally agreed. I've very happy with my Bilstein + '14 springs combo. By the way.. last week I softened my whiteline rear bar up from 23mm setting to the 21mm setting and it's made the ride a LOT better. I have no idea what impact it's had at the limits but I don't care really, except winter time when I appreciate easy drifting. It was skipping around a bit in the back on uneven pavement while cornering and that fixed it. Slightly more roll in hard corners but my city is a tic-tac-toe grid so who gives a rat's shyster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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