cww516 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I know being oversprung will cause (or exacerbate) wheel bounce, so you're probably moving closer to the sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 OOYY VEYY!! i don't need to race a shit ton to be a good driver 1. No, but without some sort of evidence that your experience is reliable and repeatable, your story is just that. off ramp turns in traffic is not a controled scenario. i don't need to crash off the road to reach the limit of grip 2. you obviously dont know what the term "limit" means. By definition, the limit of grip is when you lose control. Having some slip angle does not mean you were on the limit. your tires are not the only thing that can increase road grip 3 Oh i see, so you found a way to magically make tires stick to the road better without changing compound or adding aero. Give me your Phone# and ill pass it on to the Ferrari or McLaren F1 teams. your a freak ass 4. *you're.....And shall I link this to the Butthurt thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 and btw i did get 80 out of that turn but it was a 4 wheel drift and i was talking about before tire's breaking free as obviously tires are the only thing that matter to you Anecdotal....and i was only using the number 80 becaue it was higher than what you said. Shall make it 90? Bottom line is a pro driver will be faster than what you think is the limit. And that bar you added only reduce the theoretical maximum grip limit. dont think tires are #1 when it comes to suspension? dont take my word for it. read this - http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets4.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) No, but without some sort of evidence that your experience is reliable and repeatable, your story is just that. off ramp turns in traffic is not a controled scenario. you obviously dont know what the term "limit" means. By definition, the limit of grip is when you lose control. Having some slip angle does not mean you were on the limit. Oh i see, so you found a way to magically make tires stick to the road better without changing compound or adding aero. Give me your Phone# and ill pass it on to the Ferrari or McLaren F1 teams. *you're.....And shall I link this to the Butthurt thread? first i was not in traffic, i did it in the middle of the night same like any sane person would do their pulls and controlled the scenario as much as i could by putting my inside tires just off the inside line giving me a nice aim point to keep my turn radius consistent. second limit is a relative term if you said the crane can lift a thousand pounds but it'll be bent afterward you could say it didn't reach it limit because it didn't break. i set the limit at something that is actually repeatable rather than just seeing how fast i could get through the turn like you suggest which would take way more repetitions and at least a few more measurements than i could take myself while also driving to get any kind of repeatable result. third if you think tires are the only thing that make grip go throw your stickiest set of shit onto a muscle car and you'll see that suspension geometry has A LOT to do with it. that's why Hotchkis has so much business Anecdotal....and i was only using the number 80 becaue it was higher than what you said. Shall make it 90? Bottom line is a pro driver will be faster than what you think is the limit. And that bar you added only reduce the theoretical maximum grip limit. dont think tires are #1 when it comes to suspension? dont take my word for it. read this - http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets4.html forth just because I lowered the THEORETICAL limit of grip by reducing body roll doesn't mean i lowered the actual grip in a real world scenario. in the real world we have these things called bumps (you probably never see those tho being race car driver and just spending all of your time at the track being a better driver than everyone else) and when you hit one of those bumps while dragging side skirt through a turn its going to upset the car a lot more than if you'RE at half the body angle. fifth i know for a fact the tires are not number 1 when it comes to suspension because they are not part of the suspension and what i initially said was that it was the best $/MPH through a corner upgrade. if you think you can buy me THAT NICE of a set of tires for only $250 after tax that are that much better then my stock tires please point me in the direction (because I'm in the market for new tires) and sixth you'RE such a typical jersey ass I'm so glad i have left that state Edited July 21, 2015 by ripstik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 first i was not in traffic, i did it in the middle of the night same like any sane person would do their pulls and controlled the scenario as much as i could by putting my inside tires just off the inside line giving me a nice aim point to keep my turn radius consistent. driving on the limit of grip is not the same as doing a pull on an abandoned street. For someone who has never done a track day or performance driving on a closed circuit at all, as far as anyone knows, there is no credibility to what you say other than it being anecdotal. If you had come in here and said id did back to back laps on a track and the bar got me this, id believe you more. all you can do is tell us how the car feels, nothing more. second limit is a relative term if you said the crane can lift a thousand pounds but it'll be bent afterward you could say it didn't reach it limit because it didn't break. i set the limit at something that is actually repeatable rather than just seeing how fast i could get through the turn like you suggest which would take way more repetitions and at least a few more measurements than i could take myself while also driving to get any kind of repeatable result. third if you think tires are the only thing that make grip go throw your stickiest set of shit onto a muscle car and you'll see that suspension geometry has A LOT to do with it. that's why Hotchkis has so much business Again you don't understand what "limit" means. yes suspension design will maximize the giving adhesion a tire has, but it will not increase the theoretical maximum grip a tire can achieve. The point of which the tire can no longer grip, and car car slides off the road is the LIMIT. if your car is still on the road, you have not passed that limit. Only someone with a death wish would test that limit on the street. forth just because I lowered the THEORETICAL limit of grip by reducing body roll doesn't mean i lowered the actual grip in a real world scenario. in the real world we have these things called bumps (you probably never see those tho being race car driver and just spending all of your time at the track being a better driver than everyone else) and when you hit one of those bumps while dragging side skirt through a turn its going to upset the car a lot more than if you'RE at half the body angle. It actually does mean you lowered it in the real world. A bigger bar makes the suspension less independent, and therefore reduced performance over bumps. There is a reason why lots of race cars and some super cars don't run bars at all. The swaybar was always a stop-gap measure to control body roll on a softly sprung car. The right way to do it is just with springs and no bars at all, keeping the suspension fully independent. fifth i know for a fact the tires are not number 1 when it comes to suspension because they are not part of the suspension and what i initially said was that it was the best $/MPH through a corner upgrade. if you think you can buy me THAT NICE of a set of tires for only $250 after tax that are that much better then my stock tires please point me in the direction (because I'm in the market for new tires) you got to pay to play. if you havent been on a good set of extreme performance summers, you are no position to be objective about it. Buy a set of bridgestone RE-71Rs and then tell me how great your bar was. Just a classic case of "I did it so i must be right" logic. and sixth you'RE such a typical jersey ass I'm so glad i have left that state I fail to see where i have insulted you like this. Rather i have argued in a civilized manner. Clearly what i'm saying is bothering you on a deeper level. I'm sorry you cant keep your composure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCrash Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Wheres my popcorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisCrash Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 For someone who has never done a track day or performance driving on a closed circuit at all, as far as anyone knows, there is no credibility to what you say other than it being anecdotal. If you had come in here and said id did back to back laps on a track and the bar got me this, id believe you more. all you can do is tell us how the car feels, nothing more. I can actually say I have seen Ripstik autoX. I have pictures too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ^thats good to know. autox is a great place to test suspension/tire upgrades. in my 10 years of autox experience, along with being an instructor and competing on a national level, is that a stock car with good tires will always be faster than a car with suspension upgrades and crap tires, assuming that same person is driving. the amount of time people put in to tire testing at events is further proof of this. Sway bars are an afterthought, only played with when adjusting final car balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 driving on the limit of grip is not the same as doing a pull on an abandoned street. For someone who has never done a track day or performance driving on a closed circuit at all, as far as anyone knows, there is no credibility to what you say other than it being anecdotal. If you had come in here and said id did back to back laps on a track and the bar got me this, id believe you more. all you can do is tell us how the car feels, nothing more. so because i take my laps around the street my testing is not viable? i have not done any track days because i don't have the time, money, or anyone to race with, i have however done a few autocross events and didn't do half bad considering how much of an advantage all the STi's i was up against had over me with there lighter weight better suspension and shorter wheel base. my time was 12th overall at WBM this year and all of my laps were within a few tenths excluding my first lap, which I'm sure you'll say is dog shit and doesn't make a difference. the fact of the matter is you can do testing without being a professional test driver and having a closed track to do it on. and its also a fact that i can't even buy 2 good tires for how much the RSB cost me (actually the potenza re050a stockers are more per tire) which is what i was saying in the first place if you took a second to read my comment rather than spewing out a bunch of shit about how it's impossible for me to record any sort of useable data. it was meant to be taken with a grain of salt which is why i said "FWIW" not "This information is god and take it to be all that is fact" the fact that are saying ON A ROAD CAR that i should run with no bar and just stiffer springs and shocks tells me how pompous you really are to think that anyone in there right mind would do that to their daily. do you see where i live? have you heard of frost heaves? pot holes? wash boarded dirt roads? we'll see how your stiffly sprung car without a sway bar does when you hit wash boards half way through a turn and how your back feel after one commute to work where you need to pick your line perfectly to only hit 1000 potholes rather than 30000. you also clearly don't realize that limit is not an absolute term and even if the limit was set to when you go crashing off the road as a racer you should know its not only about how much speed you can hold its about how much speed you can hold while holding a certain line which is what i was testing, if you finish your turn and you'RE all the way on the outside but now you have corner in the other direction you'RE screwed you'll lay on the breaks go wide and someone will come right through on the inside. but no, you'RE right, i'll lay out $1000 on tires and $4k on suspension so i can throw out that stupid useless swaybar that cost me 1/20th that and everyone has backed so greatly. I'm sure whiteline has no clue what they are doing when it comes to setting up a car or they wouldn't run them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Ripstik, a track day is not a place to "race". Did you notice that you're the only one arguing? GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 so because i take my laps around the street my testing is not viable? i have not done any track days because i don't have the time, money, or anyone to race with, You should probably read up on what a HPDE/track day actually is. If you go in the Motorsports sub-forum, there is some info about it there. i have however done a few autocross events and didn't do half bad considering how much of an advantage all the STi's i was up against had over me with there lighter weight better suspension and shorter wheel base. my time was 12th overall at WBM this year and all of my laps were within a few tenths excluding my first lap, which I'm sure you'll say is dog shit and doesn't make a difference. the fact of the matter is you can do testing without being a professional test driver and having a closed track to do it on. good. i hope you had fun. Next time you do one, have an instructor take you out. And if you really want to test things out. disconnect the rear bar be for you have him drive it and watch him go faster than you. and its also a fact that i can't even buy 2 good tires for how much the RSB cost me (actually the potenza re050a stockers are more per tire) which is what i was saying in the first place if you took a second to read my comment rather than spewing out a bunch of shit about how it's impossible for me to record any sort of useable data. if arbitrary $/fun or $/mph is how you are judging things. tires still win. its just they require a larger initial investment. Like i said, you got to pay to play. if you havent done it yet, you cant say im wrong. it was meant to be taken with a grain of salt which is why i said "FWIW" not "This information is god and take it to be all that is fact" You have your opinion and you voiced it. My experience has lead me to have a conflicting opinion, which by the way is shared with the motorsports community. Im just voicing how large that grain of salt is. the fact that are saying ON A ROAD CAR that i should run with no bar and just stiffer springs and shocks tells me how pompous you really are to think that anyone in there right mind would do that to their daily. do you see where i live? have you heard of frost heaves? pot holes? wash boarded dirt roads? we'll see how your stiffly sprung car without a sway bar does when you hit wash boards half way through a turn and how your back feel after one commute to work where you need to pick your line perfectly to only hit 1000 potholes rather than 30000. I was talking about theory in a perfect world, when i spoke about no bars. But then again, the folks at McLaren seem to take the "no sway bar" theory pretty seriously. you also clearly don't realize that limit is not an absolute term and even if the limit was set to when you go crashing off the road as a racer you should know its not only about how much speed you can hold its about how much speed you can hold while holding a certain line which is what i was testing, if you finish your turn and you'RE all the way on the outside but now you have corner in the other direction you'RE screwed you'll lay on the breaks go wide and someone will come right through on the inside. In the motor sports world, the limit is an absolute term, referring to the point at which the tire can no longer maintain grip and the car loses the ability to corner. lthe line you take is how you manage that grip limit and maximize it for speed. but no, you'RE right, i'll lay out $1000 on tires and $4k on suspension so i can throw out that stupid useless swaybar that cost me 1/20th that and everyone has backed so greatly. I'm sure whiteline has no clue what they are doing when it comes to setting up a car or they wouldn't run them. I never said sway bars are bad, just that tires make much more of a difference. Did you read the article i posted earlier? Sway bars are cheap and easy to make so of course lot of people have them as the first suspension upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 good. i hope you had fun. Next time you do one, have an instructor take you out. And if you really want to test things out. disconnect the rear bar be for you have him drive it and watch him go faster than you. I had an instructor with me on 2 runs he said i was "good and smooth". and if you removed the sway bar on these cars you'll be resting on the bump stop through every corner, see what that does to your theoretical grip. you're right mclaren does do pretty well without a sway bar. now lets see them chase me up the app gap. ill bet they blow a tire and rupture a few disks before they reach the top where i will be waiting eating my lunch. your suggestions don't really make sense man, anyone can say "spend more money" or "set your car up like an F1 team" but I operate in the real world with little money to throw around and even if i had plenty of money to toss at the car I'll never go so stiff that i wouldn't need a sway bar because its a daily not a track car. so i went with the cheaper upgrade that doesn't wear out in a few years or less depending on how sticky you go and guess what I'll still have that sway bar when i upgrade my tires and my intact spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesedil Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No one is criticizing you for upgrading your sway bar on a family sedan ("because racecar" is really a joke, right?). It's just being pointed out that there are other upgrades that have a larger effect on the amount of grip (both more and less) your car has access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I had an instructor with me on 2 runs he said i was "good and smooth". and if you removed the sway bar on these cars you'll be resting on the bump stop through every corner, see what that does to your theoretical grip. you're right mclaren does do pretty well without a sway bar. now lets see them chase me up the app gap. ill bet they blow a tire and rupture a few disks before they reach the top where i will be waiting eating my lunch. your suggestions don't really make sense man, anyone can say "spend more money" or "set your car up like an F1 team" but I operate in the real world with little money to throw around and even if i had plenty of money to toss at the car I'll never go so stiff that i wouldn't need a sway bar because its a daily not a track car. so i went with the cheaper upgrade that doesn't wear out in a few years or less depending on how sticky you go and guess what I'll still have that sway bar when i upgrade my tires and my intact spine. You really need to stop talking out the side of your *** and quit arguing a moot point. This thread is not the place for it. And FWIW, McLaren is much more than an F1 team, last I heard they make some very sought after road cars. And also FWIW, the McLaren-Honda F1 car HAS SWAYBARS....well, not in the traditional sense, depending on a suspension design, it is usually more of a roll spring or torsion bar. Let's get back on topic. Edited July 21, 2015 by GTEASER GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 the topic was suspension right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I had an instructor with me on 2 runs he said i was "good and smooth". and if you removed the sway bar on these cars you'll be resting on the bump stop through every corner, see what that does to your theoretical grip. no you wont. the bar doesn't keep you off the stops. your spring does. the amount of force a sway bar makes is only enough to change the car balance. its no where close enough to support the weight of the car(keep the car off the stops). you're right mclaren does do pretty well without a sway bar. now lets see them chase me up the app gap. ill bet they blow a tire and rupture a few disks before they reach the top where i will be waiting eating my lunch. your suggestions don't really make sense man, anyone can say "spend more money" or "set your car up like an F1 team" but I operate in the real world with little money to throw around and even if i had plenty of money to toss at the car I'll never go so stiff that i wouldn't need a sway bar because its a daily not a track car. so i went with the cheaper upgrade that doesn't wear out in a few years or less depending on how sticky you go and guess what I'll still have that sway bar when i upgrade my tires and my intact spine. i never said tires aren't a better upgrade just that for the money you spent to upgrade your tires temporarily you could get a permanent upgrade and save most of the money to put toward tires at another time. the people in this thread are talking about spending 1000+ on springs and shocks, so when i say spend it on tires instead, i am operating in the real world. I'm glad you enjoy your bar, but tires will always make a bigger difference. and for those who have the coin, and want to make a larger impact on how the car behaves than just a couple extra mm of bar can do, i make real world suggestions that work on the street. tires and shocks are to be done first, then springs, then bars. with the right shock, you'd be surprised how stiff you can go and still be comfortable. But these things are out of your price range right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No one is criticizing you for upgrading your sway bar on a family sedan ("because racecar" is really a joke, right?). It's just being pointed out that there are other upgrades that have a larger effect on the amount of grip (both more and less) your car has access to. this guy gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 the topic was suspension right? right. The topic is not "pissing match". We are all here to learn from one another and presently, if I think logically, I am learning a lot more from whitetiger than I am from anyone else. I don't need to learn how to insult people or be pig-headed, I already know how to do that. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 indeed. this is what happens when you present information that goes against what is commonly understood. People want to be happy with what they do, and when you say "well actually, did you know that you would have been better off doing....and here is why..." you get what we had here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Titus Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Sooo back to suspension questions. I'm dropping the whole rear sub frame and swapping a bunch of stuff in the process. When driving at speeds and turning relatively hard, I hate how much roll is in the rear end. So would a rear strut tower brace be beneficial or RSB? Not looking for track car performance, just much less roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Because Racecar Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No one is criticizing you for upgrading your sway bar on a family sedan ("because racecar" is really a joke, right?). It's just being pointed out that there are other upgrades that have a larger effect on the amount of grip (both more and less) your car has access to. Excuse me?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zee199969 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Off the top of my head, from previous reading, strut bars have questionable if any performance gains on our cars My "Build" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Sooo back to suspension questions. I'm dropping the whole rear sub frame and swapping a bunch of stuff in the process. When driving at speeds and turning relatively hard, I hate how much roll is in the rear end. So would a rear strut tower brace be beneficial or RSB? Not looking for track car performance, just much less roll. strut tower brace is useless. what are you swapping, and what have you done so far? A spring/shock upgrade will get most of the roll away, and i would actually do a front bar first before the rear since theses cars have the weight up front and need most of the roll control there first. If you have done all this, then a rear bar may be prudent, but most people misinterpret front roll as rear roll. if you get the front to corner flatter, the rear wont roll as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Off the top of my head, from previous reading, strut bars have questionable if any performance gains on our cars Correct. Although you may "feel" a little difference with one installed, you will be hard pressed to quantify any real "performance" gains without having a fully modified suspension set up with track spec coilovers, really wide sticky tires, and hard bushing all the way around. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Off the top of my head, from previous reading, strut bars have questionable if any performance gains on our cars they are essentially useless. Just for show. Though they do look nice, some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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