GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 strut tower brace is useless. what are you swapping, and what have you done so far? A spring/shock upgrade will get most of the roll away, and i would actually do a front bar first before the rear since theses cars have the weight up front and need most of the roll control there first. If you have done all this, then a rear bar may be prudent, but most people misinterpret front roll as rear roll. if you get the front to corner flatter, the rear wont roll as much. he's bagged. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) You're on bags, right? Any way to adjust pressure on those without affecting ride height? You'd probably want a higher "spring rate" to do things right, but if you have the stock RSB in there, the 20mm WRX bar may be a good band-aid. Less roll on smooth pavement, anyway. I know even less about air suspension than I do about regular spring suspension, so take that for what it's worth. Edit: hooray, crappy cell signal... Edited July 21, 2015 by cww516 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 You're on bags, right? Any way to adjust pressure on those without affecting ride height? You'd probably want a higher "spring rate" to do things right, but if you have the stock RSB in there, the 20mm WRX bar may be a good band-aid. Less roll on smooth pavement, anyway. I know even less about air suspension than I do about regular spring suspension, so take that for what it's worth. wow! someone is not following the conversation . DC_Titus is on bags, not ripstik. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 he's bagged. You're on bags, right? Any way to adjust pressure on those without affecting ride height? You'd probably want a higher "spring rate" to do things right, but if you have the stock RSB in there, the 20mm WRX bar may be a good band-aid. Less roll on smooth pavement, anyway. I know even less about air suspension than I do about regular spring suspension, so take that for what it's worth. i know little about bagged suspension as well, but what i highlighted sounds right. Maybe you could also lower the lower bag perch so you would need more PSI(spring force) to attain the current ride height, giving you more stiffnes and roll resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Correct. Although you may "feel" a little difference with one installed, you will be hard pressed to quantify any real "performance" gains without having a fully modified suspension set up with track spec coilovers, really wide sticky tires, and hard bushing all the way around. the thing you would feel is the added weight slowing the car down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 wow! someone is not following the conversation . DC_Titus is on bags, not ripstik. I thought I was. Decided to live dangerously and reply to DC_Titus' comment without quoting it, since he had just posted, but I neglected to remember that my cell signal is suck. Kinda surprised that post made it through, I would have thought Chrome would have given up after 13 minutes. I guess a more accurate word might be "trailing" rather than "following"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Titus Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Yes, I am bagged. I thought about moving the perches down but the pressure I drive at is actually pretty stiff as it is. So far I have a front strut tower brace, rear LCAs, toe arms, and endlinks. I'm putting in new sub frame bushings, diff bushings, new swaybar bushings, new bushings on pretty much every control arm, and replacing every nut and bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ok, so if you don't want to lower the perch and run more pressure, than all you have left is bars. However, if you are concerned with ride quality after adding more pressure, you may want to look at shocks. what shocks are running with the bags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripstik Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 No you wont. The bar doesn't keep you off the stops. Your spring does. The amount of force a sway bar makes is only enough to change the car balance. Its no where close enough to support the weight of the car(keep the car off the stops). so a sway bar doesn't help both sides of the suspension travel more similar distances? And when you compress one side of your suspension and extend the other one this puts absolutely no force on the sway bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Titus Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 They are airlift performance strut assemblies. It's not a BOC air setup. They're right out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 so a sway bar doesn't help both sides of the suspension travel more similar distances? And when you compress one side of your suspension and extend the other one this puts absolutely no force on the sway bar? thats not what i said. what i said was that the bar is not what keeps the car off the bump stops. what you said here is correct but has nothing to do with the car being on the stops or not. the spring is what holds the car up and the added force from a sway bar present during cornering is not what is keeping thcar off the stops. And if you arent cornering or driving on uneven surfaces, the bar is not doing any work at all. the amount of force the bar generates under full cornering is only supplemental compared to the springs. This is why a modest spring rate increase, properly damped, will do more to control body roll than a bar. That way your suspension stays more independent, more comfortable, and the car has less front to rear pitch too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Yes, I am bagged. I thought about moving the perches down but the pressure I drive at is actually pretty stiff as it is. So far I have a front strut tower brace, rear LCAs, toe arms, and endlinks. I'm putting in new sub frame bushings, diff bushings, new swaybar bushings, new bushings on pretty much every control arm, and replacing every nut and bolt. Having looked at your build thread, i can say now that its your shocks that are the problem. not sure what damper tech those units are using but f they cant be that good. Some good valving will go along way towards making it more comfy and allowing you to run more PSI and lower the perch to get the ride height you want. do they offer shock rebuilds or upgrades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I'm gonna go ahead and find a different, slower-moving thread to post in for now, pretty sure molasses in winter is faster than my internets are right now. Edited July 21, 2015 by cww516 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Something I would like to add to this conversation is that in lower traction scenarios, less lateral grip can be achieved, far less suspension loading occurs when cornering, and when combined with uneven surfaces, softer suspension is required to keeps the wheels on the ground at all. So, from a "spirited crappy-street driving" perspective, a stiffer rear sway bar helps neutralize the car, even if it is at the expense of rear grip. Rear grip isn't worth much if you understeer right through a turn. Here is an example to illustrate what I mean: I have never pushed my car to the limit on dry asphalt. I simply do not know what/where that limit is: I speak not about that. However, on a snowy/icy road in the winter, I drive near the limit all the time and regularly tempt/push that limit to find out where it is. In fact, I make a point of it as part of safe winter driving to know what the limit is, so I can adjust my driving accordingly. In my city they simply don't plow the roads half the time, and in some places, never, and I mean that seriously. As a result, understeer can be very scarey.. just snow-plowing tangentially through a corner (literally and figuratively) straight towards a curb, pole, or worse is terrifying (My Rav4 is brutal for that). A stiffer rear bar has corrected that by helping the back to come around in a mild and controlled way, which gets me through the corner, and much much faster than if I had to slow down enough to avoid the understeer. And we may be talking about speeds of 20 - 40 MPH. Now, with that said, I fully recognize that the better way to address that would be to swap my rear diff for a 1.5 LSD unit, then RSB be damned it would come around on demand no matter what using my right foot. And when we are talking about winter-land, I have what one would call "excellent performance tires", and I buy nothing short of the best. So in this case, I am showcasing how tire capability is already maxed out, and changes to bars helps neutralize things. My point is, there are always trade-offs. The key is knowing what those are and adjusting your setup to meet your handling desires (and budget) as best you can for the surface conditions you face. I have no problem sacrificing limit grip in ideal conditions in favour of drastic improvements in poor conditions, but that's because 50% of the year the roads would qualify as "poor conditions". I also have no problem dropping whatever it costs for the absolute best winter tires, because ultimately, tires are what holds you to the ground. Whitetiger has provided a lot of great information here that I find very helpful in evaluating those trade-offs, and frankly has reinforced some of the decisions I have come to on my own setup. My $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ^you are doing the right way. winter driving is a great way to test the limit since the speeds are much slower. the thing about understeer though, is that you can deal with it in one of 2 ways. 1.increase front grip 2.decrease rear grip. It is always better to increase front grip, but its easier to decrease rear grip in a pinch with a bar. Increasing front grip though will make you faster, and be safer in the winter, and on dry warm tarmac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Agreed. But is there any way to increase front grip in winter beyond high quality dampers, a bit of negative camber (-1 to -1.4) in the front, great tires, optimized tire pressures, and the odd Scandinavian flick? Because frick do I hate winter understeer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 A front diff upgrade will help. Ask me how i know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Wouldn't limited slip in the front actually cause the front to break free easier than the rear, making understeer under power worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) It depends on the diff. A torsen/helical diff will bias tq to the gripping wheel and pull the front through a turn. now of course this wont help you under braking or if you are going in too fast, but once you make the apex, and apply power, a front diff is a beautiful thing. you can only compensate for driver skill to a point with parts. Edited July 22, 2015 by whitetiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandon.mol Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Well.. I sure put a damper on that discussion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zee199969 Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Well.. I sure put a damper on that discussion.... Hey when did this turn into the bad pun thread? Lol My "Build" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LagIsForePlay Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Narrowed suspension upgrades to three: RCE Tarmac Zeros, Bilsteins/ Blacks, BC Coils. I am leaning more towards the Bilsteins for more of a set it and forget setup. The car is purely on the road and will never be tracked, but I am looking for a little firmer feel. I am just trying to prevent any buyer's remorse not spending a little more for coils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 In the set it and forget it realm there is always Koni/H&R combo. Or Koni/Black. I dialed mine in and left it there for almost 2 years and 27k miles now. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LagIsForePlay Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 In the set it and forget it realm there is always Koni/H&R combo. Or Koni/Black. I dialed mine in and left it there for almost 2 years and 27k miles now. Sorry, I meant to say I do not want to do inserts, at all so I was looking for alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Sorry, I meant to say I do not want to do inserts, at all so I was looking for alternatives. And you don't want inserts why? They are hands down the BEST shock option for anywhere close to the money. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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