BlackGT Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 might want to add a WBO2 trace to the log. The stock sensor trace is saturated so there's no telling exactly how rich the car is running You are so right, I will have access to a wideband this weekend, so I hope to get some traces done with that, but this is interesting: I modified the primary fuel tables to add less and less fuel, the idea being if I made small changes and logged it each time at lower rpm's, I could tell when the AFR started to lean out above the 11:1. But I've gone all the way to 12.22:1 in the map, and the logs still say 11:1, so something is WAY out of whack. I'm getting more fuel in the engine than the ECU is asking for. Me thinks it is my injectors. I have the DW 650cc's. I set the fuel injector scale using the process from COBB, watching the fuel trims at idle, but this only really scales the lower ranges of the injectors, what if they do not follow the same scale up through the duty cycle range.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackGT Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Copy and past your DA table. Log Turbo Dynamics Also whats the question? DA table is all COBB stage 2 Here is a log from last night, 4th gear from 200-6200 rpm. It is not happy up top, do I have too much ignition advance for the boost and IAT I am running?4th_gear_pull_long.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 You are so right, I will have access to a wideband this weekend, so I hope to get some traces done with that, but this is interesting: I modified the primary fuel tables to add less and less fuel, the idea being if I made small changes and logged it each time at lower rpm's, I could tell when the AFR started to lean out above the 11:1. But I've gone all the way to 12.22:1 in the map, and the logs still say 11:1, so something is WAY out of whack. I'm getting more fuel in the engine than the ECU is asking for. Me thinks it is my injectors. I have the DW 650cc's. I set the fuel injector scale using the process from COBB, watching the fuel trims at idle, but this only really scales the lower ranges of the injectors, what if they do not follow the same scale up through the duty cycle range.... the stock O2 is reacts to the partial pressure of CO in the exhaust to get an AFR estimate. Because it is placed before the turbo, it will also react to exhaust gas pressure. for a given (rich) AFR, it will read richer if the pressure is higher. you need to becareful if you are using its reading as a leaner mix will show up richer than it really is if the exhaust manifold pressure is high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackGT Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 the stock O2 is reacts to the partial pressure of CO in the exhaust to get an AFR estimate. Because it is placed before the turbo, it will also react to exhaust gas pressure. for a given (rich) AFR, it will read richer if the pressure is higher. you need to becareful if you are using its reading as a leaner mix will show up richer than it really is if the exhaust manifold pressure is high. Sounds plausible, wow I bet I was running really lean. Good thing I kept the RPM's low. So, why do we log AFR's off the factory O2 anyway if it is useless under boost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 So, why do we log AFR's off the factory O2 anyway if it is useless under boost? Its useless after 11.1 and you don't use it you use a wideband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacy2005 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 its good as a reference point. if you start getting odd readings with the WB then take a look at the factory O2. it will show you if the sensor is way off or if the car is way off. i used the factory O2 to help figure out if my wb sensor was messed up. Work hard. Play even harder. My Garage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 ....part of the reason the WB only gets installed during tuning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 ....part of the reason the WB only gets installed during tuning.... As long as its powered there is no issue running it all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 As long as its powered there is no issue running it all the time. Agreed, the stock 1O2 sensor is a WBO2 that is run all of the time (most production cars are similar). Just make sure that you install your WBO2 sensor properly (MoTeC has a good write-up on this in their PLM Manual) and you should be able to run it all of the time. You can extend your sensor life if you remove it after the tuning is complete. Leaving the sensor in or removing it after tuning is complete comes down to personal preference IMO. Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackGT Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I got the wideband put in last night (Thanks Bayley!) and after some fiddling, here is my 4th gear pull (at 16psi). I was getting some knock on the early runs, so I backed off the timing a few degrees. Comments are welcome. I left it slightly rich as I need to tune the timing curve next.6-14_4th_gear.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Something is not very happy with that setup you have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 As long as its powered there is no issue running it all the time. due to NAFTA the gas we have here often has high levels of MMT (thanks Ethyl corp ). I try to minimize sensor aging by only using it during tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 What is with you folks The sensor used in the widebands is OEM in a bunch of cars and it is not replaced every week. It is fine to leave it in so long as the heater is powered. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignignokt Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 What is with you folks The sensor used in the widebands is OEM in a bunch of cars and it is not replaced every week. It is fine to leave it in so long as the heater is powered. the specs that came with my WB kit (bosch sensor) even state clearly that worst case, located in front of a turbo and exposed to all the high temps and pressures that it shouldn't be, it will still be reliable and accurate for 500 hours of use. Put it behind the turbo, and I agree it isn't worth worrying about, especially when its only $79 for a new one anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 It belongs behind the turbo anyway...Cobb DP is the perfict design for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 What is with you folks The sensor used in the widebands is OEM in a bunch of cars and it is not replaced every week. It is fine to leave it in so long as the heater is powered. If we are going to be picky about the details, both the heater and pump cell need to be closed loop regulated, not just on . I agree that the sensor is OEM in a bunch of other cars. That doesn’t mean it is appropriate to run it full time in our application. When the sensor was designed into a bunch of OEM applications, the engineers went about measuring the operating temperature of the sensor tip under quite a few conditions. They also made sure the sensor was not installed aft of any large dips in the piping. Our application is probably ok but may have issues in the winter because of the large amount of piping hung below the sensor. I’ve already lost one sensor to cracking of the ceramic element. I’m guessing water pooled in the headers. When I started the car, I didn’t fire it up immediately so the sensor tip had a chance to heat before it was nailed by a slug of water. Based on your location, I assume you don’t have MMT laden fuel (has been banned for use in the US for years now…. but not for production and export). We get a lot of O2 sensor failures north of the border because of MMT deposits. WBs are particularly sensitive due to the little metering hole on the ceramic substrate. It only takes me 2 mins to yank the sensor so I’m not averse to doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 Forgive me, but when I said that the heater needs to be powered I meant that the sensor has to be functioning; you will damage it in a few hours if you leave it in place and not "hooked up" If you mount your sensor in an improper location you will have problems; that applies to almost every part on the car. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 I moved my front 02 to be behind the turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted June 15, 2007 Author Share Posted June 15, 2007 I took all of them out - too scary; I pulled the other sensors as well Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Forgive me, but when I said that the heater needs to be powered I meant that the sensor has to be functioning; you will damage it in a few hours if you leave it in place and not "hooked up" If you mount your sensor in an improper location you will have problems; that applies to almost every part on the car. that's the funny thing. I thought I had picked a good spot (top of bellmouth). I think it was just bad luck combined with my attempt to log the startup transient. I figured the water couldn't make it up the up pipe on startup but I was wrong. I think it is safer to simply start the vehicle without letting the sensor heat up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKonBLACK Limited Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 So i got my street tuner software, i was wondering how do i load my PROtune map into the steet tuner software? when you go to load a map it looks for .stb type files and the protune is a .ptr map any way to convert it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 The tuner will have to convert it for you if they are willing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fweasel Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 The tuner will have to convert it for you if they are willing. And my guess is they will not be. ignore him, he'll go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 PDX has done it in the past, TDC wont. My guess is you are correct. But the point of ST is you do it yourself and dont need them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 If you have an AP v1, you can just download the rom with ecuflash, open it with enginuity, and copy iover all the relevant tables to ST. That would get you around the PT/ST locking, but still give you real-time tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now