rc0032 Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Yes, I have the luxury of a chassis dyno. Although, I usually tune the Intake Calibration in the highest gear, 5th in your case. We have the ability to do this in a safe environment and we highly suggest you perform the intake calibration tuning on a load-based chassis dyno. If you tune the intake calibration table in lower gears you will see more variance in your fuel trims and this can be frustrating. I suggest you provide as stable of an environment for tuning this table...which I have found to be the tallest gear. Take care, Christian. Hum...good to know, might be my new weekend adventure. Thoughts on this? V Also you need to take into account the outside air temperature. There are a few basemap tables (WGDC Air Temp Comp A, B, WGDC Bara. Comp A, B), that take this into account. I don’t fully understand how these work but they are a multiplier of sort that takes into account the air temperature and reduces WGDC to help prevent over boosting in the extreme cold or heat. Christian can you explain these more? For my purposes I have just left them alone. Also thank you for repeatedly visiting this thread!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Also you need to take into account the outside air temperature. There are a few basemap tables (WGDC Air Temp Comp A, B, WGDC Bara. Comp A, B), that take this into account. I don’t fully understand how these work but they are a multiplier of sort that takes into account the air temperature and reduces WGDC to help prevent over boosting in the extreme cold or heat. Christian can you explain these more? For my purposes I have just left them alone. Also thank you for repeatedly visiting this thread!! These tables are used to compensate for how the EBCS reacts to ambient temperatures since the device is located in the engine bay. Ex; lower temperatures mean higher resistance on electronic components, wastegates tend to run higher boost due to the stiffer mechanisms inside the housing (from the cooler weather), etc. You should not need to modify these tables if you are using a stock EBCS since the settings have been optimized by a team of engineers (that are much more intelligent than myself). Take care, Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 What if i'm running the prodrive? Do they need adjusting then? The stock EBCS couldn't keep up with my turbo upgrade. So I have a Prodrive and a .025" pill (stock was .04") and my WGDC are in the mid 80's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 What if i'm running the prodrive? Do they need adjusting then? The stock EBCS couldn't keep up with my turbo upgrade. So I have a Prodrive and a .025" pill (stock was .04") and my WGDC are in the mid 80's I am not bashing, although, I have used the stock EBCS for every turbo under the sun, 16G, VF39, FPGreen, FPRed, GT30, GT35R, internal WG, external WG, etc. and it works perfectly fine. You just have to make sure the system is set-up in the proper mechanical fashion. I would suggest you do not use the restrictor pill with the ProDrive unit, that system already has a integral orifice machined into it. The restrictor pills should only be used on the stock EBCS, not with any aftermarket EBCS. As far as modifying those tables for the ProDrive unit, you would have to test and see if those calibrations need to be modified. The ProDrive unit is a better match to the stock system as compared to the GM unit. Being at mid 80 WGDC is fine, you should only be concerned about the WGDC when you exceed ~95%. You do not want to overheat and lock up the solenoid. Take care, Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 And that was my issue/ nightmare for 6+ weeks. With a stock EBCS, the stock pill and a 15 psi spring @ 95% WGDC I was getting 17psi. With the Prodrive, stock pill and 15 psi spring I was getting 18.5 psi @ 95% WGDC. At this point we looked the car over for leaks and came up empty handed. If you cap the system I would hit 20+ psi or 15 (spring only depending on what was capped) instantly. I then went with the smaller pill + Prodrive and regained complete control over boost. I am also sure I have the Prodrive installed properly (per the tuning guide). I have had the system apart several times and it was working in correct mechanical fashion ( stock T form). I would love to know where it went wrong and saved myself a lot of $$ and hear aches. But this why we do it ourselves in the first place right Here are my WGDC tables and boost achieved (it still needs a lot of work in this log it over boost then over corrects, but it was the last log I have). 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 65.00 70.50 88.02 90.52 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 65.00 70.50 87.52 87.52 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 89.03 89.03 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 89.03 89.03 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 83.00 80.01 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 78.52 80.02 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 79.02 79.04 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 78.52 77.53 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 67.50 73.00 79.53 88.03 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 65.00 70.50 79.02 87.53 10.00 40.00 65.00 65.00 65.00 70.50 78.52 87.03 RPM boost WGDC 3916 13.2 80.39 3982 16.1 79.22 3982 16.1 79.22 4104 19.14 78.82 4215 21.18 76.08 4215 21.18 76.08 4297 21.76 72.55 4297 21.76 72.55 4397 21.18 72.55 4397 21.18 72.55 4482 20.45 74.9 4578 19.87 77.25 4578 19.87 77.25 4645 19.58 76.86 4645 19.58 76.86 4766 19.44 76.86 4766 19.44 76.86 4848 19.29 76.47 4905 19 76.08 4905 19 76.08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 wow high WGDC in the upper RPM range!! mine is around 66 I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share Posted March 31, 2007 He needs to bleed off a lot of air - that is (was) the problem. That's why you can adjust it Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 rclark0032, what turbo are you running? Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted March 31, 2007 Author Share Posted March 31, 2007 TD06-20g. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 Thanks rao also thanks for all your help with getting me to where I am today. Christian it is a medium turbo at best, paired with a Perrin TMIC, AEM intake, Cobb up, catted Cobb DP and a little water injection for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 I'm going to post this to keep this thread current, then duck out of sight My choice of tuning path has been influenced by everyone who has posted on the subject, plus the data off Cobb's website. Edmund has been my guiding light. But my own path, as I read, has some unique differences. As time goes on I'll know the value of those differences. Each setup is a combination of variances from stock with our individual choices in mods, thus each slightly different from the other. Our paths also diverge as each pursues individual expectations from our steeds. Personally, I am emphasizing my driving experience while balancing my absolute numbers oriented wishes. A car that performs, yes, but a car that is a joy to drive is foremost. It is out of these considerations my map(s) have evolved. I look forward to our collective collaboration so that I may learn and improve. And if enough of us participate maybe Tide will grant us our own forum. It is past time IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Hi Christian, I was wondering if there's any way we can get access to the cold start tables? I have a bit of a hickup on cold start with 740cc injectors. The car will fire up pretty quickly, then bog (rich I'm guessing) for a few tenths of a second then ramp up to the normal cold idle speed. I've adjusted the scale and latency values at 14volts and again at 11.5 volts (actually reduced the electrical system voltage and got the value there). Since my fuel trims are within a percent or two of zero (and my idle is smooth) I'm pretty sure there isn't an error in my scale or latency values. If the cold start enrichment can't be adjusted, is there any other way to fudge the values? I was thinking of messing with the maf calibration but haven't gotten around to logging maf during cranking (I'm not even sure if our cars use the maf during cranking, or if the cranking maf voltage will be lower than idle) any insight would be appreciated thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I get the same exact thing. It does not really bother me, as the car starts right up... but there is a very quick bog that occurs. I think I know the answer to this one.... but how does one properly tune for partial throttle??? Right now, when I am slowly rolling in 2nd gear then start pushing the pedal down slowly.... I get major hesitation, not a smooth acceleration, etc. I am sure this is the toughest to tune, but at this point I am not even close. what causes this hesitation? is it maf calibration, requested AFR for the low RPM / low load condition, TPS tuning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugblatterbeast Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 sounds like your tip in table is off. you can load the tip-in values from the map I sent you since we are using the same injectors. you will still need to tune a bit but the values should be close. you will need to do a base map flash for the values to take effect. once you have the data loaded, can you log tps delta, fuel trim learned, fuel trim immediate and AFR. 7-10 samples a second should do. you will need to drive in a really jerky way ie; keep getting on and off of the throttle. 20 mins worth of logs should do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I get the same exact thing. It does not really bother me, as the car starts right up... but there is a very quick bog that occurs. I think I know the answer to this one.... but how does one properly tune for partial throttle??? Right now, when I am slowly rolling in 2nd gear then start pushing the pedal down slowly.... I get major hesitation, not a smooth acceleration, etc. I am sure this is the toughest to tune, but at this point I am not even close. what causes this hesitation? is it maf calibration, requested AFR for the low RPM / low load condition, TPS tuning? I found adjusting the Closed loop delays A,B,C to 100 helped with this. rao posted about this a while back and it worked, makes the transition from closed to open loop a lot smoother and takes away a lot of the famous “stutter” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 I found adjusting the Closed loop delays A,B,C to 100 helped with this. rao posted about this a while back and it worked, makes the transition from closed to open loop a lot smoother and takes away a lot of the famous “stutter” thanks!! good tip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 We have updated various StreetTUNER technical documents and I wanted to make sure I let you guys know. All of these updated documents can be found from this link = http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31091 How Subaru's Factory Boost Control System Works v1.06 Updated 04/02/2007 - We have revised this document to v1.06 and we have included some plumbing instructions for external wastegates and 3-port boost control solenoid valves. Updated 04/03/2007 - The AccessTUNER Calibration & Tuning Guide Worksheet for Subarus has been updated to v1.28 and it now includes a spark plug database and we have added some Deatschwerks fuel injector calibrations as well. The Mathematics tab has been updated with some additional formulas for calculating proper calibrations for various sensors. Updated 04/03/2007 - The AccessTUNER Calibration & Tuning Guide for Subarus has been updated to v1.09 and this document now includes more screen shots and graphics, updated instructions, more clear information on fuel injector table settings, and more tuning tips for DBW applications. Take care, Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 404 not found on the injector scaling guide EDIT - fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 I loaded the Deatschwerks 740cc values from the file. I loaded the scaler, the latencies, and the tip-in. I am going to see how this effects things, and compare it to my previous logs. Tip-in and latencies on the map I had were much different. Who knows which ones are best for my setup.... but I will find out here. Next step is intake calibration..... Christian.... you should add STi injectors to the Legacy GT list since we share the same injector style and can both use the same injectors (i.e. the DW 740cc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 Christian.... you should add STi injectors to the Legacy GT list since we share the same injector style and can both use the same injectors (i.e. the DW 740cc). That is the plan, although we have not had the time available for testing. I will try to make this a greater priority. You should be able to follow the tuning guide to establish the proper fuel injector table settings. Please let me know how that goes for you. How did you like the new tuning guide and worksheet? Take care, Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 That is the plan, although we have not had the time available for testing. I will try to make this a greater priority. You should be able to follow the tuning guide to establish the proper fuel injector table settings. Please let me know how that goes for you. How did you like the new tuning guide and worksheet? Take care, Christian. The new worksheet is nice. I am using the sti values for the 740cc, whichever were listed in that thread. How much of a difference do you think there is for the LGT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian. Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 The new worksheet is nice. I am using the sti values for the 740cc, whichever were listed in that thread. How much of a difference do you think there is for the LGT? I don't know, I would have to test. I would suggest you follow the steps in the tuning guide to determine your new scaler value along with your other fuel injector table settings. Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignignokt Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 We have updated various StreetTUNER technical documents and I wanted to make sure I let you guys know. All of these updated documents can be found from this link = http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31091 Thanks for the update! I tuned my car for the PE850 injectors and started back when you only had the advertised latency values listed, so I'm very glad to see I wasn't way off base when I had to bump them up quite a bit to get the scalar value to make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 back to my last map, the injector values for the STi don't quite work well on the LGT. Car pulls hard, but I am still getting used to the spool of this turbo. When I first put the turbo on it was colder out so spool was quick and more stock-like. Now it is getting warmer and spool sucks! Just something to get used to. Maybe that is something to toy around with later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Hey its me again!!!! Question.... When the engine is cold, partial throttle conditions suck. Car stumbles on itself, bucks a little sometimes, and really jerky acceleration during partial throttle. As the engine warms up it gets MUCH better and about the same it normally is I would say. (my partial throttle has never been great but nothing like this) So it all comes down to the tune I guess, I never used to have this before... and now that I am WOT tuning with Street Tuner it seems partial throttle is not so great. I guess I am not sure how the cold engine plays a role. I need educated here. Edmundu gave me his tip-in values, which made it great when I first get on the gas... no matter the condition. But this is different. This is when I first start the car and just drive out of my neighborhood. If I put the pedal down, its not that bad... but when I just want to mosey down the road at 35 and make a few turns, when I slightly tap the gas after the turn the car just acts drunk. Educate the n00b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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