What did you do to your 4th gen. Legacy today? Vol - 10

[xt2005bonbon]

m sprank, aren't you missing driving a Subie? You must be!

[Underdog]

2 hours ago, Enlight said:

Just want to share how much love @Underdog's car is getting over at Reddit. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

Not at all - definitely feeling the love! Unfortunately for some here I am being steadily talked into keeping the car though.

@m sprank Beautiful build. Looks like a ton of fun to put together and drive!

 

[xt2005bonbon]

Underdog, there's no question. Just keep it! You want a BRZ? buy that too.

Edited January 31, 2023 by xt2005bonbon

[Underdog]

6 hours ago, cheeseenlo said:

The 1.5XTR pulled hard but wasn't reaching full boost until near 4000-4100 on the 5-speed. Where have you seen these turbos reach full boost?

In the one dyno chart of my 1.5xtr it hits max (20.1 PSI) right around 3800rpm. The twinscroll hot side is effectively a bit smaller than 10cm^2 so it’s not apples to apples. That said it’s still making over 10PSI at 3000rpm. 

[Underdog]

1 minute ago, xt2005bonbon said:

Underdog, there's no question. Just keep it! You want a BRZ? buy that too.

Believe me I’m trying! We just went from 4 vehicles to 3 (sold my beater 05 Tacoma) and my wife is very reluctant to any idea that increases the overall number. Gotta say though - the BRZ would look great next to the Legacy in the garage. 

[xt2005bonbon]

Good! Then don't give up!

[NORULZleggy]

21 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Believe me I’m trying! We just went from 4 vehicles to 3 (sold my beater 05 Tacoma) and my wife is very reluctant to any idea that increases the overall number. Gotta say though - the BRZ would look great next to the Legacy in the garage. 

Gross man, don't go BRZ. I am just not a fan and they are meeehhh. 

[Underdog]

22 minutes ago, NORULZleggy said:

Gross man, don't go BRZ. I am just not a fan and they are meeehhh. 

Yeah you think so? I never really cared for the first gen but the new one has caught my eye. I like the back-to-basics approach and would enjoy a clean slate. I was going to start throwing go-parts at my Accord but I might just keep it stock - it’s a great car and has a lot of what I always wanted in the Legacy, but FWD and automatic just don’t inspire the same thrill. 

[m sprank]

3 hours ago, xt2005bonbon said:

m sprank, aren't you missing driving a Subie? You must be!

There are definitely days. 

[m sprank]

1 hour ago, Underdog said:

In the one dyno chart of my 1.5xtr it hits max (20.1 PSI) right around 3800rpm. The twinscroll hot side is effectively a bit smaller than 10cm^2 so it’s not apples to apples. That said it’s still making over 10PSI at 3000rpm. 

8cm hotside and you can hit 21psi at around 3300rpm.  But you give up top end.  I actually prefer the 8cm hotside personally.   I am less about pulling from freeway speeds and more about the raw g-force rush of playing stop light assassin.  Race track, well give me the deeper hotside as I will be keeping the engine in the upper rpm band all day already.  On the street I want to shit and git. 

 

I am sure I have graphs of an 8cm hotside too.  Problem is the naming of the graphs does not tell me and many of the mods lists became very short as the database grew.  I have thousands of graphs.  I have a very good memory and when I was operating the shop I could tell you the mods on almost every car we ever worked on.  I did not need extensive notes to pull dyno charts.  Now that its been a few years (and 50 is right around the corner)...

[snow05gtRI]

4 hours ago, Enlight said:

Just want to share how much love @Underdog's car is getting over at Reddit. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

Argh stop ittttt..... i'm having a hard enough time resisting buying that local beast

[BoozeRS05]

I was gonna say, Underdog’s just holding onto it for me when I’m ready to buy it guys! No worries

[Underdog]

32 minutes ago, m sprank said:

8cm hotside and you can hit 21psi at around 3300rpm.  But you give up top end.  I actually prefer the 8cm hotside personally.   I am less about pulling from freeway speeds and more about the raw g-force rush of playing stop light assassin.  Race track, well give me the deeper hotside as I will be keeping the engine in the upper rpm band all day already.  On the street I want to shit and git. 

 

I am sure I have graphs of an 8cm hotside too.  Problem is the naming of the graphs does not tell me and many of the mods lists became very short as the database grew.  I have thousands of graphs.  I have a very good memory and when I was operating the shop I could tell you the mods on almost every car we ever worked on.  I did not need extensive notes to pull dyno charts.  Now that its been a few years (and 50 is right around the corner)...

Is the TS officially 8cm? I always heard it was somewhere in between but never bothered to check because there was only one option anyways. Either way good to know your expectation of 21psi @ 3300rpm in case I end up putting it back on a dyno at some point for a revision.

[Underdog]

3 minutes ago, BoozeRS05 said:

I was gonna say, Underdog’s just holding onto it for me when I’m ready to buy it guys! No worries

Would you believe that someone offered me a deposit for first right of refusal?

(I said no thanks - didn’t feel right.)

[m sprank]

28 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Is the TS officially 8cm? I always heard it was somewhere in between but never bothered to check because there was only one option anyways. Either way good to know your expectation of 21psi @ 3300rpm in case I end up putting it back on a dyno at some point for a revision.

You got me on that one.  It was officially a "BPT Twin Scroll Turbine housing" and they did not advertise the hotside depth.  There is a newer version available now that has a 10cm2 hotside.  I know you have had yours for a few years now.  My guess would be 8cm2.

 

The 3300rpm is with a 6MT.  An 18g XTR hits in that range too, maybe a hair earlier.  So does an FP68HTA - 7cm hotside.  Not the worlds biggest FP fan, but I must admit I had WAY TOO MUCH FUN with my 68hta 7cm hotside and e85 (circa 2010).  Giving potential customers rides in that set up made more than a few sales. 

[Code]

I’m still running an ancient AVO380 that I had refreshed around 2015 for my original stage 3 build. Since the addition of e85 I often find myself wondering about my build with a more modern turbo. 

[cheeseenlo]

7 hours ago, m sprank said:

Mods list is off the top of my head, but it was a "package" we liked.  Car was an STi.  I specifically remember the customer coming back the day after picking up the car (it was our Toys for Tots drive).  He brought lots of toys.  I warned him to be careful on the drive home as he would need to get used to the power and delivery especially with the new tires (we did suspensions and power on the car all at once while the customer was deployed on a "pack").  He did not heed my warning and pulled a 6-4 downshift on the way home.  All 4 tires lit up and he did the Hokey Pokey as he turned himself around, but avoided the K rails and straightened her out.   

 

25psi on e69 - boost and power limited for stock block.  409whp, 414wtq on my Mustang.  Tune by Bill Knose.

Stock block

1.5xtr 10cm hotside with internal gate

KS Tech 73mm intake

AVO inlet tube

ETS FMIC

Turbosmart BPV

ID1000cc injectors

DW300c pump

Delicious Flex Fuel kit

KillerB Holy Headers/up pipe

Cobb Catted DP

Cobb CBE

Holy heart breaker dyno.

That's quite a large delta in numbers. It's not apples to apples considering my car has ID1300s vs 1000 and EWG vs IWG. This STI also has a FMIC which I don't have, but that's still a 70hp difference. I'll post up numbers when the car finally gets re-tuned with the 6MT. 

@NORULZleggyI was on the fence about retuning the car when I did my 6MT swap. I had mixed feedback from different tuners, but ultimately Prime who did my first tune said it was necessary. Based on JR's tuning strategy, he tunes wastegate duty parameters to mimic boost by gear  or gear logic. Additionally, like I mentioned earlier there's a difference in how the 5MT vs 6MT loads if you're dyno tuning. I'm assuming some minor tweaks would be necessary. I didn't question it further since I was chasing my 6MT NSS issue so I immediately thought it was a tuning issue associated with the 6MT swap. If your tuner says its all good between the swap, I would trust them. 

[NORULZleggy]

10 hours ago, cheeseenlo said:

Holy heart breaker dyno.

That's quite a large delta in numbers. It's not apples to apples considering my car has ID1300s vs 1000 and EWG vs IWG. This STI also has a FMIC which I don't have, but that's still a 70hp difference. I'll post up numbers when the car finally gets re-tuned with the 6MT. 

@NORULZleggyI was on the fence about retuning the car when I did my 6MT swap. I had mixed feedback from different tuners, but ultimately Prime who did my first tune said it was necessary. Based on JR's tuning strategy, he tunes wastegate duty parameters to mimic boost by gear  or gear logic. Additionally, like I mentioned earlier there's a difference in how the 5MT vs 6MT loads if you're dyno tuning. I'm assuming some minor tweaks would be necessary. I didn't question it further since I was chasing my 6MT NSS issue so I immediately thought it was a tuning issue associated with the 6MT swap. If your tuner says its all good between the swap, I would trust them. 

Oh I trust them, I plan on going all in with DCCD for my swap. I know it will cost, but oh well. So how do you like the 6MT swap? I plan on it when my 5MT dies but i drive it like a granny so it runs fine.

[bobglaub]

I had a 2022 BRZ.  Bought it in Dec 2021.  Drove it for 7 months then sold it for more than what I paid for it since the market was absurd.  I loved that car.  Don't knock 'em until you drive one for a while and get to play around with one.  I miss it, but at the end of the day, my LGT Wagon has my heart and I'll never let that thing go.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by bobglaub
spelling

[cheeseenlo]

14 hours ago, m sprank said:

You got me on that one.  It was officially a "BPT Twin Scroll Turbine housing" and they did not advertise the hotside depth.  There is a newer version available now that has a 10cm2 hotside.  I know you have had yours for a few years now.  My guess would be 8cm2.

 

The 3300rpm is with a 6MT.  An 18g XTR hits in that range too, maybe a hair earlier.  So does an FP68HTA - 7cm hotside.  Not the worlds biggest FP fan, but I must admit I had WAY TOO MUCH FUN with my 68hta 7cm hotside and e85 (circa 2010).  Giving potential customers rides in that set up made more than a few sales. 

  Wow! 3300rpm on a 6MT must be really fun. I would've loved to take a ride in a setup like this. I dug up a log from a few months ago. On the 5MT w/ pump 93, the car hit target boost (21psi) at 4139rpm in 3rd gear. IIRC, with E85 it did bring the power in a bit earlier. If I can get near 3500 rpms while sacrificing a bit of top end, I'd be happy. Attached log for those who are interested in see a datalog of a 1.5XTR.

1 hour ago, NORULZleggy said:

Oh I trust them, I plan on going all in with DCCD for my swap. I know it will cost, but oh well. So how do you like the 6MT swap? I plan on it when my 5MT dies but i drive it like a granny so it runs fine.

Nice! My 6MT is from a S402, nothing extraordinary since it has SpecB ratios which is what I really wanted. I added a STi FLSD without DCCD. I wanted to keep things simple for now but may add it in the future. 

As for the swap, I only put about 50 miles on the car so far. The clutch is a sprung twin-plate organic so it does require re-learning to make things smoother. Engagement is getting better with time and it still allows some slip especially getting into 1st or reverse so it's easy to maneuver the car in tight parking spaces or the garage. I wish I could provide more feedback but would like more seat time before really saying anything. Gear changes have been smooth. 1st and 2nd is super short and will surprise you.  I'm not used to the throw distance since I came from a KB STS on the 5MT. I already have Cobb's 6MT double adjustable STS waiting to be installed. I'll install it likely this summer when the weather is nicer out. 

datalog39 (1).csv

Edited February 1, 2023 by cheeseenlo
Added datalog

[xt2005bonbon]

Just looked at your log. Peak of 3.72 g/rev for your calculated load. That's pretty high. I reach about 3.2 max on a good day (cool intake temps) with the VF52 JMP. Some of your AF learned fuel trims were quite positive (i.e. running lean). Were you running ethanol at the time? Maybe not, since I see 'ethanol final' content of 13%. That means ~E10 or pump gas no?

Also, I don't recall seeing AVCS angles set that high (30+deg) under boost. Mine are set to peak at 10 deg. Which heads are you running and remind us the block? Sorry can't remember all the details

[NORULZleggy]

1 hour ago, cheeseenlo said:

  Wow! 3300rpm on a 6MT must be really fun. I would've loved to take a ride in a setup like this. I dug up a log from a few months ago. On the 5MT w/ pump 93, the car hit target boost (21psi) at 4139rpm in 3rd gear. IIRC, with E85 it did bring the power in a bit earlier. If I can get near 3500 rpms while sacrificing a bit of top end, I'd be happy. Attached log for those who are interested in see a datalog of a 1.5XTR.

Nice! My 6MT is from a S402, nothing extraordinary since it has SpecB ratios which is what I really wanted. I added a STi FLSD without DCCD. I wanted to keep things simple for now but may add it in the future. 

As for the swap, I only put about 50 miles on the car so far. The clutch is a sprung twin-plate organic so it does require re-learning to make things smoother. Engagement is getting better with time and it still allows some slip especially getting into 1st or reverse so it's easy to maneuver the car in tight parking spaces or the garage. I wish I could provide more feedback but would like more seat time before really saying anything. Gear changes have been smooth. 1st and 2nd is super short and will surprise you.  I'm not used to the throw distance since I came from a KB STS on the 5MT. I already have Cobb's 6MT double adjustable STS waiting to be installed. I'll install it likely this summer when the weather is nicer out. 

datalog39 (1).csv 6.04 kB · 1 download

I do remember that 1st and 2nd gear are short farts. I had a 04 STI and I miss it every day. It was just a problem child and I did not know about Subies way back when I was young. I remember that 3rd gear was longggggg when I was able ahead of cars.

[m sprank]

Incomplete log.  Would be interesting to see what happens as rpm climbs above 4500.  Stock MAP sensor?  No wideband?  Disclaimer, I am not a professional tuner, but the log looks to me like a tune that at my shop we might refer to as "kill mode". 

I realize that is is almost always better to work with a local tuner than attempt remote tuning on big builds.  Bill Knose performed 90+% of the tunes on my dyno.   Bill would usually be considered a bit reserved when it comes to tunes for street cars.  We share many of the same mindsets when it comes to "playing" with others money.  Bill tunes all types of cars, but specializes in Subarus.  They are what he has driven himself since the late 90's.  You can check out his website here: https://www.delicioustuning.com/

Bills first BIG break into Subaru tuning was with Crawford Performance and Ken Block.  Bill tuned the Gymkhana 1 car for Ken and MANY more BIG name Subies:  https://www.delicioustuning.com/portfolio

I was lucky enough to work with some of the BEST. 

[m sprank]

PIc bomb.  Went looking for logs and got side tracked by pix.  I need to pull my archive drive and dig deeper for OLD LGT shots some pre-shop.

 

@UnderdogRick, I can help with the BRZ, when you finally buy one.  Took care of Abbates car for two seasons working with Bill.  Also built this monster for show.  Parked her next to a RARE complete original Porsche I did some work on as well. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by m sprank

[m sprank]

More pic bomb

 

The wagon was my shops first trip to SEMA.  Did  most of the work in the back yard before having an actual shop.  We won Best of Show at Subiefest 2010 and took the car.  A car built for show that got trailer-ed to shows. 

 

Max "Spider Pig" tearing it up at Adams track.  A car built for show that ended up living on the track.