poll: What oil are you using and what change interval?

[thatwouldbegreat]

wahh! you guys know so much about oils!! Too many professional jargon...

Thatwouldbegreat, do u work for oil company??

 

Anyhow, so the higher the group number the better the oil it is! =)

Where do i find the group classification on the box?

 

I don't work for an oil company...I'm just an idiot when it comes to cars!

 

Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com if you want to join the cult, and www.autopia.org if you want to become Wax OCD.

 

The group number of the basestock is rarely obvious on American oil packages, in some European countries the name of the oil will tell you if it is a true synthetic Group IV and / or Group V...or a Hydrocracked Synthetic made from petroleum , Group II and /or group III.

 

Soon, we will also have the Gas To Liquid basestocks...to further complicate making the right choice!

[Always Dirty]

I had Mobil1 in my engine for about 2k miles before my shithead dealer (Clay Subaru) changed it out without checking it first. Now I have the dinojuice. Is this going to be a problem?

[thatwouldbegreat]

I had Mobil1 in my engine for about 2k miles before my shithead dealer (Clay Subaru) changed it out without checking it first. Now I have the dinojuice. Is this going to be a problem?

 

Other than the wasted value of a great syn oil? No problem.

 

You can switch between dino and syn, back and forth without concern.

 

But, I still believe in picking an oil and staying with it. Maybe I'm a bit too fussy, but I try to be consistent. If the dealer had drained my mobil 1, I'd probably ask him to replace it.

 

BTW, you can even mix oil types...but then the oil change interval is altered , usually its shortened greatly, at least IMHO.

 

If I had dino oil and discovered I was a quart low, then I might add a quart of synthetic oil [ if that was all I had ] and consider the oil interval as being at least as good as it was.

 

If I had synthetic and discovered I was a quart low [ unlikely ], and only had a quart of dino....I'd think it was better to add the oil rather than drive very far before I topped up. But now I would think the oil interval was no longer 7K to 12K.

 

I'd assume that I should change the oil within a 1000 miles or so.

 

That's why it never a bad idea to keep an extra quart in the trunk of whatever oil is in the engine.

[SBT]

Subaru OEM Filter, 5W-30W Valvoline Dino @ 3500 miles (winter) 10W-40W Valvoline @ 3500 miles (Summer).

 

SBT

[AMBIVALENCE]

what does dino means?

I cant find it in the bob's glossary.. =(

[SBT]

Dino refers to geologically produced, human-refined crude oil... reference to dinosaurs and millions and billions of years beneath the ground compared to highly refined, completely synthetic oil.

 

HTH

 

SBT

[thatwouldbegreat]

Here's some info from an article aimed at selecting oil for off road machinery like bulldozers, logging trucks etc.

Group I, II, and III are 'dino oil' or refined crude oil. The newer hydrocracked basestocks have fewer contaminants, like sulfur and waxes. Hydrocracked oils are much more like Group IV and group V synthetics in terms of viscosity index and more nearly uniform longer chain molecules.

Group III is less expensive that true synthetics, by 50% or more typically, yet provides many of the benefits.

The problem is that some companies sell Group II and Group III blends for under $2.00/qt [ ex. Motorcraft, Troparctic 5W-20 and 5w-30 ] or $3.00/ or more for pure Group III oils [ ex. Shell Rotella 5W-40] while other companies sell Group III as 'synthetic' oil for $5.00 /qt [ cough cough Castrol Syntec cough ]. This is why I like German Castrol Syntec 0W-30 and not the other Castrol Syntec.

Other 'true' synthetic oils like Mobil 1, Amsoil, Motul, Redline, Pennzoil Platinum use various mixes of Group IV PAO and Group V Esters. Redline and Motul use primarily Group V or 100% Group V.

 

 

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=311&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication

 

 

 

Lubricant Characteristics

Engine oils have changed considerably over the last ten years. A major advance is greater availability of new, more highly refined base-stocks that significantly enhance lubricant performance under more demanding operating requirements. The American Petroleum Institute (API) identified five base oil categories (Table 1) that are used with the API Base Oil Interchange Guidelines to help assure that engine oil performance is not affected adversely when one basestock is substituted for another in a finished oil formulation.

Historically, refiners made basestock by solvent refining and dewaxing selected crude oil fractions (Group I). With the development of hydrotreating and hydrocracking technology, refiners introduced highly refined, low aromatics, low wax basestocks with improved oxidation stability in large volume (Group II).

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Backup/200203/LubSelecTab1.gif

 

 

More recently, higher viscosity index basestocks made by high severity hydrocracking of petroleum fractions have become available (Group III). Group III stocks differ from Group II products in the structure of the lube oil molecules that impart the higher viscosity index. Group III basestocks are limited to lower viscosities, typically, 4 to 7 cSt at 100°C.

API identified polyalphaolefins (PAOs) as a special class of basestock. PAOs are made by a chemical process and have the characteristics of uniform composition, very high oxidation stability, high viscosity index and no waxy molecules. By adjusting the manufacturing process, PAOs can be made in a wide range of viscosities, commonly from 4 cSt to 100 cSt at 100°C. For many years, PAOs and esters (Group V) were the only available premium basestocks for engine lubricants operating under extreme temperature and conditions.

Most synthetic engine oils made with PAO now contain a small amount of ester to give the basestock the same solvency power as typical mineral oils. This helps to assure that the synthetic lubricant will have the same seal swell characteristics as conventional oils.

Table 2 lists some typical properties of Group I through Group IV basestocks with similar viscosities at 100°C.

 

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Backup/200203/LubSelecTab2&3.gif

 

Critical base oil properties improve from Group I to Group IV. Also, less viscosity index improver (polymer) is required in multigrade engine oils with the higher VI basestocks. This leads to improved shear stability (Stay-In-Grade) and fewer deposits from polymer degradation.

Basestocks that have been severely hydrogenated to remove almost all aromatics (Group II and III) and chemically manufactured, 100 percent paraffinic PAOs (Group IV) have an added advantage in boosting the performance of dispersants in the additive package of fully formulated oils to hold soot in finely divided suspension in the oil. Soot forms in engine lubricating oil when fuel is not completely burned. If the soot is not properly dispersed, viscosity increase due to soot thickening can shorten the useful life of the oil. Also, soot particles can clump together and form deposits in critical parts of the engine. 1

The main barrier to using better performing Group III and Group IV basestocks is cost, Table 3. Group IV (PAO) basestocks used in conjunction with esters (Group V) are more expensive than other basestocks derived from crude oil. The decision to use engine oils made with PAO/ester blends has to be based on a cost/benefit analysis to justify the higher price of the lubricant against the anticipated benefits.

 

 

Definition of Synthetic Lubricants - Buyer Beware

For many years, PAOs and other chemically synthesized basestocks were the only lubricant products that could be advertised as synthetic. The National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau broadened the definition of synthetic lubricants to include products made with Group III basestocks in a 1999 ruling. This created confusion in the marketplace as to what the customer was actually buying when he specified “synthetic motor oil.” 2

Some lubricant marketers also promote semisynthetic engine oils that are a blend of synthetic basestock and conventional mineral oils. Semisynthetic engine oils could have as little as 10 to 20 percent synthetic in the formulation. These products can be purchased at a lower cost than full synthetics. Performance features, especially with respect to low temperature flow, high temperature evaporative loss and oxidation stability, are generally inferior to full synthetics, although they may be perfectly adequate for many applications. There is no requirement for oil marketers to specify the amount of synthetic basestock in finished semisynthetic oil, or to state whether the synthetic component is a Group III or Group IV base oil.

The point here is to be sure that the performance features are understood when purchasing a synthetic engine oil. Ask the oil marketer for product data sheets, test results, especially data that shows lubricant performance under stressed conditions, and field test reports in equipment that is relevant for your operations.

 

Why Use Synthetics (PAO/Ester) in Off-Highway Crankcase Applications?

Synthetic crankcase lubricants (PAO/ester) offer the following potential advantages over mineral oil-based products:

1. Problem solvers for difficult environments
   • Faster oil flow at low temperatures
     • Less equipment warm-up time, more productive up-time
       
     • Less engine idling saves fuel and lowers excessive engine deposits

[*]Less wear during low-temperature startups

• Lower evaporative losses at high ambient and engine operating temperatures - less makeup oil required

[*]Potential for extended service life

• Better oxidation stability
  
• Lower evaporative loss - less makeup oil
  
• Better viscosity control

[*]Potential to extend equipment life and increase time to overhaul

[*]Potential for operating cost reductions

• Fewer change-outs
  
• Less downtime
  
• Lower labor costs
  
• Lower waste oil disposal costs
  
• Lower maintenance and replacement costs
  
• Reduced energy/fuel consumption

Decision Considerations

Maintenance engineers are concerned with protecting the investment in equipment and keeping it running economically. Synthetics offer an opportunity of extended drain intervals and longer time to overhaul, both of which may lead to lower maintenance costs. Balanced against this are the higher cost of oil, and possibly air and oil filters.

Under extreme temperature conditions, synthetics (PAO/ester) offer the only practical choice of lubricant because of the superior low temperature flow properties and low evaporative loss at high temperatures. If mineral oils are used in extremely cold weather climates, engines need to run continuously or heat must be applied to engines and oil sumps prior to startup. If equipment is operating in remote, relatively inaccessible locations, where the cost of equipment repairs is extremely high, synthetics provide a measure of insurance even if normal drain intervals, established with mineral oils, are maintained.

But for most equipment operators, the decision to switch to synthetic lubricants is based on straightforward economics. To offset the higher lubricant cost, operators need to see reduced maintenance costs that come from longer drain intervals or documented evidence that time to overhaul is extended. A simple calculation provides a first pass target to determine drain intervals with synthetic lubricants that give equivalent lubricant life cost with mineral oils (Figure 1).

For example, assume a sump size of 50 gallons, 2 gallons makeup oil, 4 hours downtime for maintenance, $50 per hour for maintenance, $100 per hour gross profit on the equipment, 50 gallons waste oil, $0.25 per gallon disposal cost, and a 1000 hour drain interval for mineral oil. Assume also that mineral oil costs $3.50 per gallon and synthetic lubricant costs $12.00 per gallon. The target drain interval for break-even economics with the synthetic lubricant is shown in Figure 2.

If maintenance is conducted on off-shifts, when equipment is not normally operated, lost operating profit on the equipment for maintenance downtime is zero, and the calculated break-even drain interval for the synthetic oil increases to 2120 hours.

Also, if oil consumption is high from leaks through auxiliary equipment or past the rings and valve guides into the combustion zone, the break-even calculated drain interval for synthetic lubricants increases relative to the drain interval for mineral oil.

[Always Dirty]

Thanks for the reassurance, thatwouldbegreat. One less thing to worry about.

[05garnet_ltd_gt]

Mobile1 10W30 7500mile synthetic with Mobile1 oil filter, changed about every 6k-7k miles.

 

Also, dang those M1 filters are expensive!

[sexylegacy]

Redline 5W-30, Subaru factory filter (Now made in Japan). Every 3K. If I don't change at 3K, I end up not quite a quart low on oil. I also read some of you guys run a 10W-40 in the summer. Is this a good thing to do? Should I switch to that now that summer is upon us? BTW, thatwouldbegreat, that is a great article. I didn't know THAT much about oils. I love this site. Thanks.

[Garandman]

BTW, who do you use for oil analysis? We currently use National Tribology (www.natri.com) but some other outfits seem less expensive.

 

//You can switch between dino and syn, back and forth without concern.

 

Although SOA says not to do so....

[MDW25gt]

Castrol GTX 10-W30, ever 3500 mi. +/-500mi. Purolator or Wix filter.

[psucaptainkickass]

Just switched to German Castrol....13k miles here, so excited to try this stuff out!

[thatwouldbegreat]

BTW, who do you use for oil analysis? We currently use National Tribology (www.natri.com) but some other outfits seem less expensive.

 

 

 

Although SOA says not to do so....

 

Blackstone Labs.

 

I think SOA needs to catch up on oil technology.

 

Many cars have Oil Life Monitors which are quite accurate , and many manufacturers have very useful and specific oil specs, approvals, and extended oil service intervals. Example up to 20K for some Porsche models with 0W-40 synthetic, 15K on BMW with a BMW LL-01 approved oils usually synthetic 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40, 15K on Saab with 0W-40 synthetic, etc. etc.

 

 

I think Redline 5W-30 should be fine for the Subaru year round. Maybe Redline 5W-40 for extreme heat and / or driving.

 

I use Redline 10W-40 in our 1986 BMW 325es which has 476,000 miles on a great running original engine, using mostly Redline at 7K to 8K intervals.

 

But 10W-40 Redline in a modern Subie? That might be just for people living in Las Vegas

 

10W

[f1anatic]

Mobil 1 Synthetic 15w-50 every 3000 miles

[psucaptainkickass]

1986 BMW 325es which has 476,000 miles

[Garandman]

Blackstone Labs.

 

I think SOA needs to catch up on oil technology.

 

Many cars have Oil Life Monitors which are quite accurate , and many manufacturers have very useful and specific oil specs, approvals, and extended oil service intervals. Example up to 20K for some Porsche models with 0W-40 synthetic, 15K on BMW with a BMW LL-01 approved oils usually synthetic 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40, 15K on Saab with 0W-40 synthetic, etc. etc.

 

Most GM cars and trucks calculate it. The light first came on for our Chevy Express (4.8L V8) at 8,925. The dealer told me the normal range is between 7K and 11K. Oddly enough, the dealer recommends changes at 3,000 miles....

[andrew_j]

Dealership dino fill (Exxon SuperFlo) every 5k miles. This recipie of dealership dino fill every 5k miles brought over 200k to both our previous Honda's without a single oil related issue.

[thatwouldbegreat]

Most GM cars and trucks calculate it. The light first came on for our Chevy Express (4.8L V8) at 8,925. The dealer told me the normal range is between 7K and 11K. Oddly enough, the dealer recommends changes at 3,000 miles....

 

Our 2005 Chevy Silverado Crew Cab has a Duramax and the OLM typically recommends an oil change near 10K, using 15W-40 HDEO like Shell Rotella or Chevron Delo 400. I normally change with 30% of the oil life remaining.

[Lagacy GT]

You guys are a wasteful lot. Synthetic oil change interval at 3000 miles is a joke. I do mine at around 7000 miles.

[ebpda9]

Mobil 1 Fully synthethic every 5k miles with a bosch filter. need and oil cooler soon

[crossdog]

Started using Mobil 1 at 4,000 miles, plan to change around 5,000 miles

[Ed_T]

You guys are a wasteful lot. Synthetic oil change interval at 3000 miles is a joke. I do mine at around 7000 miles.

 

I gotta agree, and do mine around the same mileage if not a bit longer. Subie's are reputedly very easy on oil (even the turbo models FWICT judging from the appearance of the drain oil). A UOA I did quite awhile back said the M1 could've gone past the 7,500 mile changeout easily. Effin warranty!

[unequal]

thatwouldbegreat

 

My friend uses the GC in his VW and I am planning on using it also(been a Mobil1 person for years). However, I just passed 1,100 on the odo. Since you seem to know quite a bit about "oils", wanted to ask for opinion. I know this question is a much debated topic. Can I use synthetic now..or must I wait till around 10k or so? I asked my shop foreman, says use it now is ok, and that the fact the rings have to "settle" in up to 10k miles makes no sense to him.

Sorry for kinda going off topic

[thatwouldbegreat]

thatwouldbegreat

 

My friend uses the GC in his VW and I am planning on using it also(been a Mobil1 person for years). However, I just passed 1,100 on the odo. Since you seem to know quite a bit about "oils", wanted to ask for opinion. I know this question is a much debated topic. Can I use synthetic now..or must I wait till around 10k or so? I asked my shop foreman, says use it now is ok, and that the fact the rings have to "settle" in up to 10k miles makes no sense to him.

Sorry for kinda going off topic

 

I've read lots of discussions on this subject, and a reasonable argument is that leaving the factory fill in for the first 3000 - 3750 miles is a good practice.

 

I think you could switch to syn at 0 , 1000, 3000, or 10,000 miles and get good results. Just like you can break in a motor with a 'drive it like you stole it', a gradual break in method, or a 'drive it like you normally do' and get good good results.

 

I like the gradual break in method, with some slightl lugging and full vacuum to work the rings, then more and more full power WOT to Redline after 1000 miles and change the factory fill at 3000 miles.

 

Then its time to switch to synthetic.

 

I'm running GC 0W-30, but Mobil 1 5W-30, Redline 5W-30, Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30, and Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30 are all good choices.

 

I'd use the factory oil filter or a Pure One oil filter, and change the oil every 7000 miles.... the 'normal' oil change schedule is 7500 miles.

 

If you worry about sticking to the Subaru 3750 mile 'severe' oil change schedule for warranty purposes; use a 5W-30 like Motorcraft, Castrol GTX, Havoline, or a synthetic blend of your choice... and change at 3000 miles.

 

I have to switch to synthetic at some point.... so I switch to synthetic at 3K and use 7K OCI.