2016 hopes & wishes but ultimately disappointment thread

[eldrego]

Didn't read the thread, but frankly I'm shocked that folks here thought / hoped that there would be anything in the new Legacy lineup other than a 2.5 N/A and a 3.6 variation. A 4 banger with manual doesn't surprise me, along with the 6 cyl getting auto only.

 

Anyone who was hoping for a turbo / blown option was delusional.

 

And anyone who thought there would be / or will be a performance OEM version of the new car is... frankly, crazy.

 

Sorry, everyone. That ship has sailed.

 

Kinda makes me laugh that when the 06 and 07 Spec B came out, we all slammed anyone who thought it was worth anything. Looking back, it really was the end of an era. (Today, I think the 2007 Spec B was the Pinacle of the LGT, ever).

Subaru gave us a ton of special features in the Spec B that would have cost a ton to reproduce (trust me, I tried) in an OEM package that, like 10 people bought?

 

I have enjoyed my 9 years here very much. I love my 05 wagon in SWP and manual transmission. It's an excellent looker, which hauls ass. And I still love gettign into it every single day- even though It's had issues in the last 6 months that has all loved ones saying "Gire, time for a new car".

 

But the new Legacy will be compared to an Accord 4 or 6, or a Mazda 6 (God help us if they actually bring the wagon and/or diesel here because it will kill all), or a Passat or a Fusion or Genesis, Impala, A4, 328i, etc. Which is, coincidently, what I will be cross shopping as my new Sedan.

 

I love Subaru, but if there is no Turbo Legacy option, with tunability to make it a honkin' fast car, I will buy one of the above instead. Snow tires can do a lot of a FWD car to make it almost as great as SOA's AWD standard.

 

Oh, that's right!

I should buy a WRX if I wanted the above. Too bad I'm pressing 40 and not in my late 20's anymore (when I bought my LGT).

 

Buh-bye?

 

Obvious troll is obvious

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[dgoodhue]

What are you talking about? Auto sales were BOOMING up until the 2007 slow down and the bad years didn't happen until the financial collapse in 2008.

 

Subaru didn't share in any of the success that the other Japanese companies did during this time period.

Subaru's 2006 record was set on the back of EXTREME incentive spending. Subaru repositioned pricing on all of its models in 2007 and cut incentive spending drastically. That caused Subaru to recoil. The record setting 2008 Impreza debuted that year to help mitigate the declining BL sales. 2008's resurgence was due to the 2009 Forester's March debut.

2009 saw almost all of Subaru's remaining model year 2009 Legacy and Outback inventory wiped out during cash for clunkers and lead to an early release of the BM in August

 

The facts don't lie... These numbers are FHI's fiscal year end numbers (2008 would be sales ending March 2008)

The BL generation Legacy and Outback was a complete and utter failure. They sold worse than the preceding models which didn't have turbos and premium aspirations.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/xGwI8kn.png

 

Perhaps you should read through FHI's financials. They are available on FHI's site. FHI's operating profit was in sharp decline. FHI was unprofitable. FHI was unable to afford SIA's expenses with no Isuzu and selling far below the 250,000 needed to make the plant viable as a solo operation. On top of not selling enough cars, Subaru was spending through the nose on incentives. The JDM market was eroding fast. Subaru barely had a piece of the passenger car market and that was eroding as customers were switching to kei cars (which Subaru had even less market share of and were considerably less profitable than passenger cars). Subaru's global sales were down, the cost of raw materials like aluminum skyrocketed. The Yen was appreciating meaning less money was making it back to Japan. The dollar was depreciating meaning a double whammy. GM dropped its 20% investment and Toyota only picked up 8.4%. Subaru bought back almost all the rest for over $400 million... ouch!

 

 

Look at industry sales 2004-2009.5. Now look at industry sales 2009.5 through 2013... You are completely backwards on the market conditions. Every single year the BM was on sale was during a MUCH smaller industry than the BL... and it sold in record numbers, with reduced incentives, in the middle of a recession. It's a sad fact, but the BL IS Subaru's biggest failure since the 1990 Legacy.

 

Industry Sales

1999 16,958,568

2000 17,410,320

2001 17,177,445

2002 16,848,180

2003 16,675,648

2004 16,913,361

2005 16,997,203

2006 16,560,989

2007 16,154,064

2008 13,245,718

2009 10,431,510

2010 11,589,844

2011 12,778,885

2012 14,492,398

2012 14,492,398

2013 15,582,136

 

This pretty much sums it up. It is interesting to note that Subaru performance offering peaked between 2005-2008 and sales didn't respond. As they have dropped the FXT MT, OBXT, Spec.b & LGT. Sales have gone up. I guess that doesn't bode well for enthusiast.

 

Another note is that 2013 industry sales were up 7.5%. Mazda's 2.5% is well below the industry average. If the cx5 and 6 sales were up so much they must have had some real stinkers in the line up if they only averaged 2.5%.

[StoplightAssassin]

And here's the same old half truths.

 

This pretty much sums it up. It is interesting to note that Subaru performance offering peaked between 2005-2008 and sales didn't respond. As they have dropped the FXT MT, OBXT, Spec.b & LGT. Sales have gone up. I guess that doesn't bode well for enthusiast.

 

Oh 2005 - 2008? You mean Subaru's performance cars weren't selling well right in the middle of the energy crisis and then there was the whole economic turndown immediately following that?

 

What bothers me is that Subaru now has the capacity to make fuel efficient turbo charged models, but again they can't objectively look at ALL of the data. It's like their economists only look at their sales numbers, and not the outside influences of those sales.

[The B4]

And here's the same old half truths.

 

 

 

Oh 2005 - 2008? You mean Subaru's performance cars weren't selling well right in the middle of the energy crisis and then there was the whole economic turndown immediately following that?

 

What bothers me is that Subaru now has the capacity to make fuel efficient turbo charged models, but again they can't objectively look at ALL of the data. It's like their economists only look at their sales numbers, and not the outside influences of those sales.

 

do you not pay attention? 2004 through 2007 were good years. By 2007, 4 model years of BL had gone on sale. The BL was also introduced internationally a year before it came to the US and was global flop as well. The industry was over 16 million units. There was no energy crisis and economic downturn those years. BL sales peaked in 2004 and tanked after (chart is misleading because it is in fiscal years). Also Subaru has ALWAYS been resilient to recessions. The industry was MUCH, MUCH worse during the introduction of the BM and Subaru took off like a light and left the rest of the industry in the dust. Even 2008, Subaru was on track for a sales record DURING the gas crunch until the bank collapse. 2009 was the bleakest year on record for the Automotive Industry in decades and Subaru set a record.

 

2004-2008 were good years for performance cars. The HP war was in full swing and many a popular and not so popular hi po car was introduced... everything from the Mustang, GTO, Cobalt SS, 300C, Magnum SRT8, New M3, Audi RS4, so on and so forth debuted during that time. The 300 and Mustang were the 2nd coming of Jesus in the press.

[Viber]

And here's the same old half truths.

 

 

 

Oh 2005 - 2008? You mean Subaru's performance cars weren't selling well right in the middle of the energy crisis and then there was the whole economic turndown immediately following that?

 

What bothers me is that Subaru now has the capacity to make fuel efficient turbo charged models, but again they can't objectively look at ALL of the data. It's like their economists only look at their sales numbers, and not the outside influences of those sales.

 

Exactly.

 

do you not pay attention? 2004 through 2007 were good years. By 2007, 4 model years of BL had gone on sale. The BL was also introduced internationally a year before it came to the US and was global flop as well. The industry was over 16 million units. There was no energy crisis and economic downturn those years. BL sales peaked in 2004 and tanked after (chart is misleading because it is in fiscal years). Also Subaru has ALWAYS been resilient to recessions. The industry was MUCH, MUCH worse during the introduction of the BM and Subaru took off like a light and left the rest of the industry in the dust. Even 2008, Subaru was on track for a sales record DURING the gas crunch until the bank collapse. 2009 was the bleakest year on record for the Automotive Industry in decades and Subaru set a record.

 

2004-2008 were good years for performance cars. The HP war was in full swing and many a popular and not so popular hi po car was introduced... everything from the Mustang, GTO, Cobalt SS, 300C, Magnum SRT8, New M3, Audi RS4, so on and so forth debuted during that time. The 300 and Mustang were the 2nd coming of Jesus in the press.

 

Still causation without correlation.

 

Industry wide, in the USA and globally there was a sales downward trend that began in 2004.

 

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/wholesale_retail_trade/motor_vehicle_sales.html

 

http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/non-make/carnews/carnews_919122_600.jpg

 

http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/non-make/carnews/carnews_91912_600.jpg

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fxxXZhbaMpk/TyoBRuBx5ZI/AAAAAAAAQzU/4k9NpydTZS0/s1600/cars.jpg

 

If you notice, Subaru actually BEAT the market trends for a short time until 07 and 08 when the crash was in full swing. Subaru proving to be resilient until the worst of the worst is a testament to the strength of the product line, not an illustration of the 4th gen dragging the company down. Subaru actually grew their market share in 08 when everyone else was blowing up.

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-00Hgsjddhs4/Ul7d8jgCW3I/AAAAAAAAiLY/fEILKPT73NM/s1600/Subaru_USA-annual-market-share-chart.jpg

[The B4]

Exactly.

 

except not.

[eckseleven]

So...about that 2016 Legacy....

[StoplightAssassin]

do you not pay attention? 2004 through 2007 were good years. By 2007, 4 model years of BL had gone on sale. The BL was also introduced internationally a year before it came to the US and was global flop as well. The industry was over 16 million units. There was no energy crisis and economic downturn those years. BL sales peaked in 2004 and tanked after (chart is misleading because it is in fiscal years). Also Subaru has ALWAYS been resilient to recessions. The industry was MUCH, MUCH worse during the introduction of the BM and Subaru took off like a light and left the rest of the industry in the dust. Even 2008, Subaru was on track for a sales record DURING the gas crunch until the bank collapse. 2009 was the bleakest year on record for the Automotive Industry in decades and Subaru set a record.

 

2004-2008 were good years for performance cars. The HP war was in full swing and many a popular and not so popular hi po car was introduced... everything from the Mustang, GTO, Cobalt SS, 300C, Magnum SRT8, New M3, Audi RS4, so on and so forth debuted during that time. The 300 and Mustang were the 2nd coming of Jesus in the press.

 

There was no energy crisis back then? 2003 saw gas rise over $30 a barrel and it kept rising until it peaked in late 2008 at nearly $150 a barrel. I'm not sure why you wanted to quote all those other numbers. I thought we were talking strictly the performance cars for the moment.

 

Let's look at those high HP cars you're talking about.

 

You can immediately throw out the M3 and RS4 since buyers of those cars could easily afford the gas.

 

The GTO was a flop. The Magnum was a flop. Both of those cars sat on dealer lots for the longest time.

 

The 300 and Mustang are both powered by V6s in the base models, which are by far then and now the big sellers. The 300 was the toast of the town because it was an affordable Bentley clone. The Mustang is a Mustang. People would buy them if all they had left is a gallon of gas.

[Viber]

Another note is that 2013 industry sales were up 7.5%. Mazda's 2.5% is well below the industry average. If the cx5 and 6 sales were up so much they must have had some real stinkers in the line up if they only averaged 2.5%.

 

Dragged down by platforms that are between 6 and 9 years old, and the late intro of the new Mazda 3 in 2013, which instantly met supply issues. Same for the CX-5 and Mazda-6. Both had growth slowed by demand exceeding supply.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/short-supply-issues-hamper-mazda-sales-growth/

 

Mazda 2

2012: 19,315

2013: 11,757

 

Mazda 3

2012: 123,361

2013: 104,713

 

Mazda 5

2012: 14,640

2013: 13,884

 

Mazda 6

2012: 33,756

2013: 43,638

 

CX5

2012: 43,319

2013: 79,544

 

CX9

2012: 24,442

2013: 24,628

 

Miata

2012: 6305

2013: 5780

[gimpydingo]

Lowered, shorter, 6 speed, twin turbo, 2 door?

[PtPixel]

You want an H12 in it too?

[feelander]

Legacy turbo sport next year?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/freshly-unveiled-2015-subaru-legacy-new-turbo-sport-model-downsized-six-cylinder-in-the-works

[gimpydingo]

You want an H12 in it too?

 

Then we'll just go with:

 

700 hp, fully electric.

 

H12 would work as well.

[laufu]

Legacy turbo sport next year?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/freshly-unveiled-2015-subaru-legacy-new-turbo-sport-model-downsized-six-cylinder-in-the-works

 

Tough choices in the future. A more powerful but smaller H6 or the 2.0DIT.

I hope the later means there could be a new Spec B.

 

http://wot.motortrend.com/1402_2015_subaru_legacy_looks_better_on_chicago_show_floor_than_in_photos.html

 

Quote from Motortrend about a higher performance Legacy.

"While previous-generation Legacy models have offered high-performance versions, the hottest this Legacy will probably get is with the 2015 Legacy 3.6R's 256-hp 3.6-liter F-6. That's right, neither the Legacy 2.5GT nor the Japan-only Legacy STI are likely to be revived stateside. Why? Well, because no one really bought the old one. A source tells me that while Subaru of America has interest in bringing a high-performance Legacy to the U.S. as a sort-of bigger version of the WRX, it won't even bother unless Subaru of Japan allows it to meaningfully upgrade the suspension, brakes, wheels, and tires. As is, the 2015 Legacy may be on the boring side, but we can certainly respect Subaru's decision to hold off on a performance model until it can do it right."

[PtPixel]

Tough choices in the future. A more powerful but smaller H6 or the 2.0DIT.

I hope the later means there could be a new Spec B.

 

Read the thread title... I'm not expecting much.

[StoplightAssassin]

Legacy turbo sport next year?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/freshly-unveiled-2015-subaru-legacy-new-turbo-sport-model-downsized-six-cylinder-in-the-works

 

That's C&D's version of this thread

[Viber]

Legacy turbo sport next year?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/freshly-unveiled-2015-subaru-legacy-new-turbo-sport-model-downsized-six-cylinder-in-the-works

 

This is a move that would actually make sense.

 

The 3.6L H6 has no place in the new Legacy at all.

 

Especially when Subaru has the 2.0L H4 Turbo in the Forester. This engine is begging for a new sports sedan to flog.

[fredrik94087]

Legacy turbo sport next year?

 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/freshly-unveiled-2015-subaru-legacy-new-turbo-sport-model-downsized-six-cylinder-in-the-works

 

Very interesting. Did you tell Subaru of America that we need a manual to go with it?

[AWD_Rules3830]

I really hope that Subaru takes heed and puts a Turbo/manual in the 2016 car.

 

My 05 LGT is getting a bit old lol.

[The B4]

There was no energy crisis back then? 2003 saw gas rise over $30 a barrel and it kept rising until it peaked in late 2008 at nearly $150 a barrel. I'm not sure why you wanted to quote all those other numbers. I thought we were talking strictly the performance cars for the moment.

 

Let's look at those high HP cars you're talking about.

 

You can immediately throw out the M3 and RS4 since buyers of those cars could easily afford the gas.

 

The GTO was a flop. The Magnum was a flop. Both of those cars sat on dealer lots for the longest time.

 

The 300 and Mustang are both powered by V6s in the base models, which are by far then and now the big sellers. The 300 was the toast of the town because it was an affordable Bentley clone. The Mustang is a Mustang. People would buy them if all they had left is a gallon of gas.

 

Gas prices did not affect car sales until 2008. Gas got more expensive all the while, but SUVs were still very much all the rage and more and more performance cars and conventional cars with big engines debuted, flop or not. The bloom didn't fall of the rose on SUVs until 2008 and that's when the shift happened from SUVs to CUVs. Car sales boomed all the while even if artificially bolstered by huge incentives by the domestics.

 

Also, the boom time was exceptionally good for the Japanese... even in 2007. They were still darlings of the industry. Subaru didn't enjoy any of their success.

 

2007:

Mazda up 9.8% (biggest gainer in 2007 of all brands)

Mitsubishi up 8.8% (yeah... even Mitsubishi)

Nissan up 4.5%

Honda up 4.5%

Toyota up 2.9%

Suzuki up 0.6%

Subaru down 7.0%

 

 

You're wrong, dude. Plain and simple. The last generation Outback and Legacy were failures. They didn't fail because of market conditions. They failed due to being too niche to find enough buyers. They were too expensive and too small to be mainstream, and not refined or contented enough to be premium. They failed in Japan. They failed in Europe. They failed in the US. They were a failed strategy that Subaru aborted and was better for it. It's sad, it sucks, but Subaru could have ridden that pony into the sunset and gone the way of Suzuki and Isuzu... and unlike either of those brands, if they pulled out of the US, the wouldn't survive globally.

[MJ in PA]

I can't dispute any of that, but then look at the Ford Fusion - proof that a mainstream (and upsized) sedan can still look sleek and rakish. And the Fusion Titanium can be had with turbo and AWD. So what's Subaru's problem?

[The B4]

I still think the fusion looks like a nice design stretched over a bloated body. It's not for me. I also don't think Subaru will ever compromise their engineering goals (interior volume vs exterior dimensions, safety, visibility, etc.) for styling. It just ain't gonna happen.

[ehsnils]

The 4th gen was the problem.

 

The '08 crisis was the turning point where people started to look around for affordable alternatives (vehicle cost as well as fuel consumption figures) to the thirsty SUVs that were the thing to have before the crisis.

 

I think that part of the success for Subaru was not really a change from their side but that the opportunity ended up in their lap as well as following up with cars suitable for customers demanding more space. It was a lot of luck - having a proven concept ready to sell, but it wasn't the Legacy, it was more the Forester that did attract buyers.

 

If you look at the 5th gen from a distance in a crowd of other cars it don't stand out very much - no cop magnet.

 

And with the new FA/FB engines the fuel consumption is really good.

[The B4]

Subaru went through massive changes to right their sinking ship.

They ousted Fuji president Takenaka (responsible for premium push and the airplane grille)

They ousted several Americans and Japanese at SOA (including VP Fred Adcock)They put a marketing guy at the helm of FHI and brought Tim Mahoney (Marketing guy responsible for Paul Hogan Outback campaign that saved the company and also successfully launched the Cayenne) back from Porsche to head up Marketing and US product development

 

New FHI President Ikuo Mori changed the strategy and killed the premium push. He stated Subaru isn't premium just because it says it is premium. Subaru will be premium when the customers say it is premium.

 

He also stated before that they would build cars and then put them on the market and say that they will sell. In the future they would ask the customers what they wanted and build cars based on the market.

 

After the bloodbath of 2006, Subaru regrouped, dropped prices, and pulled incentives. That set up Subaru to eventually have the lowest incentive spend in the industry by getting transaction prices closer to MSRP as opposed to having higher, wishful prices and having to deeply discount the cars. With less incentives, Subaru was able to greatly improve resale and residual values. Subaru began decontenting the BL Legacy and Outback to get relief from the Yen and raw material escalations.

 

Subaru abolished its disjointed ad strategy and pulled everything together under the "Love" campaign.

 

Mori negotiated the Toyota tie up which gave Subaru some supply chain relief with GM bowing out. Securing the larger investment and the contract to produce the Camry gave FHI huge financial relief.

 

SOA and FHI both went through major restructuring in order be a successful company. It was calculated and necessary to keep both companies afloat. It began in 2007 and gained steam over the years.

 

The product doesn't stand alone. It is an integral part of Subaru's "we gotta turn this thing around" strategy

[MJ in PA]

The "Love" ad campaign is one of the most cringe-worthy of recent memory. It kind of reminds me of Saturn's touchy-feely, non-product focused ads of the late 90's/early 00's. (GM really ruined Saturn, but I still do miss my authentic Spring Hill built 1997 Saturn SL2 - particularly the dent resistant plastic body side panels. 220,000 miles with not a single ugly door or fender ding on the body!)