PtPixel Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Twice as much? Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Good thing Subaru have that back up production plant going unused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNTransplant Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The GM con rod failure rate is no worse than Subaru's blown ringland issue. I'm sure the C&D car was beat on from mile 0. That very well could be, but a company with GM's reputation for poor quality, as well as friends/family members who have had multiple issues with GM products, would make me less inclined to purchase a GM vehicle over a Subaru. At what point do they finally get it right? It's still a "no thanks" from me, as I prefer to give my money to a company with a better overall history of reliability. I would love to have a German make such as Audi or BMW, but won't consider it because of their quality problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNTransplant Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 The real issue being GM's revival is heavily scrutinized for the GM-isms of old, and it's up to them to alleviate concerns about American reliability. This doesn't help. Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD123 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I think some folks will never be happy, irrespective of whatever Subaru does with the Legacy, as it will never meet their perception of the perfect car as they would have designed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think some folks will never be happy, irrespective of whatever Subaru does with the Legacy, as it will never meet their perception of the perfect car as they would have designed it. That's a disingenuous cop-out. The problem is not Subaru. The problem is Subaru of America that decontented the hell out of the 5th gen Legacy GT to the extent that it was phased out after only 2 years. Now there is no LGT at all. And you think people on a site called legacygt.com should shower SOA with praise for their mismanagement. Again there is no Legacy GT. It's dead. Gone. Sayonora. Hyundai manages to move a slew of turbos in the same segment as the Legacy, but Subaru, the once king of Japanese Turbo's has abandoned the platform on their flagship sedan? right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD123 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The problem is not Subaru. The problem is Subaru of America that decontented the hell out of the 5th gen Legacy GT to the extent that it was phased out after only 2 years. though it may have been de-contented compared to what was offered outside the US, it also cost less. And as has already been pointed out, the 5th gen LGT that was offered here outperformed the 4th gen in pretty much every way, plus it had considerably more rear legroom and a larger trunk Now there is no LGT at all.because the car doesn't sell well here. It seems that Subaru considers that the 3.6R adequately fills the gap left by no automatic LGT, and based upon their sales numbers, they appear to be right. ...should shower SOA with praise for their mismanagement.You really are pretty out of touch with reality - Subaru's sales numbers have been breaking records quarter after quarter, and the 5th gen outsold the 4th by a factor of 2 - how in the hell is that mismanagement? They might not be building the car you personally want to buy, but they are kicking ass in the auto industry. At some point you need to come to terms with the concept that what you think the market would respond to and what Subaru thinks it would respond to are different - and based upon how things are moving on the showroom, Subaru looks to be right. Now - could they sell more cars if they offered a LGT with the HTCVT and the FA20DIT? Maybe - but the impact would likely be marginal - neither the 3.6 nor the turbocharged 2.5 were the majority of sales. They know their market segment, and they are giving them what they want. Other manufacturers may be able to sneak more low volume cars into the mix, but keep in mind many of those makers have sales volumes 5 times or more larger than Subaru - even Hyundai sells nearly twice as many cars. As profits go up, the more you can divert to low volume models or experiments here and there. You need to keep some perspective with what a company can and can not do. Priority 1 is sales (profit) - and it always will be. Low volume models will never dominate. Look at Mazda with it's Mazdaspeed models - they are another lower volume manufacturer like Subaru, and they do what they can to provide enthusiast models here and there, but they really only have one dedicated model, the MX-5 (Miata), sort of like Subaru with the WRX. But Subaru still offers performance models here and there - the LGT was an example, and the FXT is another (albeit longer enduring) example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaSniper Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Well lets get things straight, the USDM 5th Gen was decontented, having been able to inspect a JDM 5th Gen inside and out, the USDM variant just lacked so many things (Available in a Wagon flavor, Available in Automatic, Memory seats, HID's, Push start, Factory optional Bilstein suspension, SI Drive, Better Nav, Rear A/C, Better front headlights, bumper etc etc) But that, IMO, is not what was the final nail in the coffin for the 5th gen LGT, it was the fact that having it come in manual only (Neatly cutting out 90% of your target market), on top of having to compete with the STI made the market release for the NA Market a failure waiting to happen... But that is my (IMO) reasonable hypothesis, I would like to see someone come up with 4th Gen LGT sales figures broken down with Manual vs Automatic figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 You really are pretty out of touch with reality - Subaru's sales numbers have been breaking records quarter after quarter, and the 5th gen outsold the 4th by a factor of 2 - how in the hell is that mismanagement? If the marketing and packaging of a product is so piss poor that it gets phased out due to lack of consumer interest, that's the very definition of mismanagement. Releasing a decontented, manual only LGT was flat out, one of the worst moves in recent automotive history. It's failure by design, or failure by ineptitude. Either way it's a failure. Beautifully illustrated by the dead and gone LGT for 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldrego Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Lol, okay who has the actual numbers? Cause I'm hearing Subaru sales numbers double every quarter then I'm hearing they didn't do well, which one is it? Can I see where you guys are getting your info? Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Lol, okay who has the actual numbers? Cause I'm hearing Subaru sales numbers double every quarter then I'm hearing they didn't do well, which one is it? Can I see where you guys are getting your info? Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk It is true Subaru sales were up 26% between 2012 and 2013. Not sure of the break down. Despite the myth that Subaru is this very small, quirky and scrappy car maker, nothing could be further from the truth. Subaru did nearly as many cars as a mainstream player like GMC, and more than VW and Chrysler last year. Subaru sold more cars than Audi, and Acura combined. They are not some small timer. They were 1 spot from being top 10 US auto maker last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD123 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Lol, okay who has the actual numbers? Cause I'm hearing Subaru sales numbers double every quarter then I'm hearing they didn't do well, which one is it? Can I see where you guys are getting your info? www.subaru.com - they do news releases every month with sales numbers. Subaru has been, and continues to, break sales records - their most recent release is January 2014 (final sales for 2013 were up 26% over 2012). They've been having record years pretty much 5 years in a row... For 2013, the Forester was the biggest seller (123592), followed by the Outback (118049), then the Impreza (58856), then the XV Crosstrek (53741), then the Legacy (42291), then the WRX (17969), the BRZ (8587), and the Tribeca (1598). The new design really boosted the Forester sales, as the Outback is usually their largest seller (Forester sales were up 62% in 2013 vs. 2012) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD123 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Despite the myth that Subaru is this very small, quirky and scrappy car maker, nothing could be further from the truth. To be fair, Subaru's current position as the 10th largest manufacturer is a recent development to be sure - they have been dramatically increasing year on year sales - in in 2010, they sold 263820 cars, then in 2011 they increased by about 1% to 266989 cars, then increased 26% in 2012, selling 336441 cars, then increasing again by 26% for 2013, selling 424683 cars. While some manufacturers aren't in the top 10 now, Chrysler, as an example, sold 1,085,011 in 2010 - they are on the way up from a spectacular crash. In 2010, VW, Mazda, Mercedes, and BMW were about the same as Subaru (20-30k fewer cars) Subaru has been in the top 10 before - they were 9th in 2010, and up there other years as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 But that is my (IMO) reasonable hypothesis, I would like to see someone come up with 4th Gen LGT sales figures broken down with Manual vs Automatic figures. I did it a long time ago in the original 5th gen thread when this discussion came up. There were only sales figures for the 2005 MY, but these were the results: http://cl.ly/image/1u0V0A1Y3w31/Image%202014-02-10%20at%202.44.44%20PM.png If you don't vote Trump, out, you're a bigot who hates america. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm25rs Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 ...I'm generally not one to beat a dead horse, but there was another awesome Legacy (better than its predecessor in every metric that mattered) available between '10-'12 and you guys passed. All of this wailing and gnashing of teeth seems pretty self inflicted imo. Not to beat a different dead horse, but 5th gen is ugly. The looks have grown on me a bit, but only to the point where I don't recoil in horror when I see one any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PtPixel Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't think 5th gens or 6th gens are ugly - Fiat Multpilas are ugly http://forum.liberty.asn.au/images/smilies/bad.gif - they just seem to have lost the aggression that the 3rd gens had and the simple elegance that 4th gens had. I'd simply describe them as bland, which unfortunately sells, and Subaru know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It is true Subaru sales were up 26% between 2012 and 2013. Not sure of the break down. Despite the myth that Subaru is this very small, quirky and scrappy car maker, nothing could be further from the truth. Subaru did nearly as many cars as a mainstream player like GMC, and more than VW and Chrysler last year. Subaru sold more cars than Audi, and Acura combined. They are not some small timer. They were 1 spot from being top 10 US auto maker last year. Not even 10 years ago, Subaru was 20 something in sales rankings. Subaru's current ranking and success is a very recent occurrence and basically built on the back of a sales and product strategy change following the failure of the 4th gen Legacy/Outback. If the marketing and packaging of a product is so piss poor that it gets phased out due to lack of consumer interest, that's the very definition of mismanagement. Releasing a decontented, manual only LGT was flat out, one of the worst moves in recent automotive history. It's failure by design, or failure by ineptitude. Either way it's a failure. Beautifully illustrated by the dead and gone LGT for 2015. The LGT was dead before the 2010 model. I was surprised to see the USDM LGT come back in 2010 as it was a super slow seller at the end of BL era. Let's not forget the LGT lives on in other markets. Well lets get things straight, the USDM 5th Gen was decontented, having been able to inspect a JDM 5th Gen inside and out, the USDM variant just lacked so many things (Available in a Wagon flavor, Available in Automatic, Memory seats, HID's, Push start, Factory optional Bilstein suspension, SI Drive, Better Nav, Rear A/C, Better front headlights, bumper etc etc) But that, IMO, is not what was the final nail in the coffin for the 5th gen LGT, it was the fact that having it come in manual only (Neatly cutting out 90% of your target market), on top of having to compete with the STI made the market release for the NA Market a failure waiting to happen... But that is my (IMO) reasonable hypothesis, I would like to see someone come up with 4th Gen LGT sales figures broken down with Manual vs Automatic figures. That applies to every USDM Subaru model there ever was or will be. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Not even 10 years ago, Subaru was 20 something in sales rankings. Subaru's current ranking and success is a very recent occurrence and basically built on the back of a sales and product strategy change following the failure of the 4th gen Legacy/Outback. Hate to break it to you, but Subaru was still ranked 11th prior to the 5th gen Legacy/Outback, and the only slump they saw was during the crash of '08 and '09 when the entire industry nose dived. They only saw a sales decline for two years out of the last 10, so no the 4th gen was not some great failure that damaged the company's status. The 4th Gen just got the raw deal based upon the economy failing. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jX_TwjxWVwg/Ul7d8tvAL2I/AAAAAAAAiLI/6Wq2B0LfYJI/s1600/Subaru-USA-annual-sales-chart.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-00Hgsjddhs4/Ul7d8jgCW3I/AAAAAAAAiLY/fEILKPT73NM/s1600/Subaru_USA-annual-market-share-chart.jpg Let's not forget the LGT lives on in other markets. Don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Hate to break it to you, but Subaru was still ranked 11th prior to the 5th gen Legacy/Outback, and the only slump they saw was during the crash of '08 and '09 when the entire industry nose dived. They only saw a sales decline for two years out of the last 10, so no the 4th gen was not some great failure that damaged the company's status. The 4th Gen just got the raw deal based upon the economy failing. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jX_TwjxWVwg/Ul7d8tvAL2I/AAAAAAAAiLI/6Wq2B0LfYJI/s1600/Subaru-USA-annual-sales-chart.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-00Hgsjddhs4/Ul7d8jgCW3I/AAAAAAAAiLY/fEILKPT73NM/s1600/Subaru_USA-annual-market-share-chart.jpg Don't care. Oh really? Subaru ranked: 22 in 2005 First full year of BL 22 in 2006 Hit 200K for the first time but still flat in rank. First unprofitable year for FHI in over 10 years 20 in 2007 Subaru pulled back on incentives, repriced lineup 19 in 2008 New Forester introduced, Gas crunch early in the year, financial crash end of the year, only Mini and Subaru up for the year 13 in 2009 Sales Record, Industry tanked, Cash 4 Clunkers, BM introduced, Only Subaru and Kia up for the year. 11 in 2010 Sales Record, Industry still in toliet 12 in 2011 Sales Record even after tsunami 12 in 2012 Sales Record 11 in 2013 Sales Record Do what now? And the 4th gen WAS the great failure that damaged the company's status. In fact, the BL era was unprofitable to the point where the "B" word wasn't far from being on the table. Subaru forecasted 250,000 in 2005 when the industry sold 16.9 million cars. It cost Subaru a fortune in 2006 to hit 200,000 units by using huge incentives. And this was during the time when the Japanese brands could do no wrong in the eye of the public. Subaru didn't hit 250,000 until 2010 when all traces of the BL were gone and the industry had shrank to 11.5 million in sales. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldrego Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Wow, that's a lot of green Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Todd Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Is it too much to ask for a mid size sedan with a snail? I'd even settle for a diesel! Come on Subaru..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Oh really? Subaru ranked: 22 in 2005 First full year of BL 22 in 2006 Hit 200K for the first time but still flat in rank. First unprofitable year for FHI in over 10 years 20 in 2007 Subaru pulled back on incentives, repriced lineup 19 in 2008 New Forester introduced, Gas crunch early in the year, financial crash end of the year, only Mini and Subaru up for the year 13 in 2009 Sales Record, Industry tanked, Cash 4 Clunkers, BM introduced, Only Subaru and Kia up for the year. 11 in 2010 Sales Record, Industry still in toliet 12 in 2011 Sales Record even after tsunami 12 in 2012 Sales Record 11 in 2013 Sales Record Do what now? And the 4th gen WAS the great failure that damaged the company's status. In fact, the BL era was unprofitable to the point where the "B" word wasn't far from being on the table. Subaru forecasted 250,000 in 2005 when the industry sold 16.9 million cars. It cost Subaru a fortune in 2006 to hit 200,000 units by using huge incentives. And this was during the time when the Japanese brands could do no wrong in the eye of the public. Subaru didn't hit 250,000 until 2010 when all traces of the BL were gone and the industry had shrank to 11.5 million in sales. Sources? Lots of causation without correlation and conjecture. And you still fail to address the 4th gen being around during an era of auto sales that were lowest in 27 years, yet Subaru still made gains expect for two out of ten years when everyone else was crumbling. That's with the 4th gen Legacy/Outback in their stable as their premier product. In fact we are talking a market melt down of global proportions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10) and you think it's about the 4th gen. And in 2006 before the meltdown Subaru moved 200,703 and was up +2.7%, and in Google the words "subaru bankruptcy" don't appear together even once on a news source. The 4th gens biggest issue was the economic crisis, not the caliber of the product. The 5th gen absolutely benefitted from the rising tide of economic recovery, and the outright collapse of the SUV market which boosted outback sales through the roof, and more people got AWD cars to replace their 4x4 SUV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gire Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Didn't read the thread, but frankly I'm shocked that folks here thought / hoped that there would be anything in the new Legacy lineup other than a 2.5 N/A and a 3.6 variation. A 4 banger with manual doesn't surprise me, along with the 6 cyl getting auto only. Anyone who was hoping for a turbo / blown option was delusional. And anyone who thought there would be / or will be a performance OEM version of the new car is... frankly, crazy. Sorry, everyone. That ship has sailed. Kinda makes me laugh that when the 06 and 07 Spec B came out, we all slammed anyone who thought it was worth anything. Looking back, it really was the end of an era. (Today, I think the 2007 Spec B was the Pinacle of the LGT, ever). Subaru gave us a ton of special features in the Spec B that would have cost a ton to reproduce (trust me, I tried) in an OEM package that, like 10 people bought? I have enjoyed my 9 years here very much. I love my 05 wagon in SWP and manual transmission. It's an excellent looker, which hauls ass. And I still love gettign into it every single day- even though It's had issues in the last 6 months that has all loved ones saying "Gire, time for a new car". But the new Legacy will be compared to an Accord 4 or 6, or a Mazda 6 (God help us if they actually bring the wagon and/or diesel here because it will kill all), or a Passat or a Fusion or Genesis, Impala, A4, 328i, etc. Which is, coincidently, what I will be cross shopping as my new Sedan. I love Subaru, but if there is no Turbo Legacy option, with tunability to make it a honkin' fast car, I will buy one of the above instead. Snow tires can do a lot of a FWD car to make it almost as great as SOA's AWD standard. Oh, that's right! I should buy a WRX if I wanted the above. Too bad I'm pressing 40 and not in my late 20's anymore (when I bought my LGT). Buh-bye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 The H6 is the performance option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Sources? Lots of causation without correlation and conjecture. And you still fail to address the 4th gen being around during an era of auto sales that were lowest in 27 years, yet Subaru still made gains expect for two out of ten years when everyone else was crumbling. That's with the 4th gen Legacy/Outback in their stable as their premier product. In fact we are talking a market melt down of global proportions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10) and you think it's about the 4th gen. And in 2006 before the meltdown Subaru moved 200,703 and was up +2.7%, and in Google the words "subaru bankruptcy" don't appear together even once on a news source. The 4th gens biggest issue was the economic crisis, not the caliber of the product. The 5th gen absolutely benefitted from the rising tide of economic recovery, and the outright collapse of the SUV market which boosted outback sales through the roof, and more people got AWD cars to replace their 4x4 SUV's. What are you talking about? Auto sales were BOOMING up until the 2007 slow down and the bad years didn't happen until the financial collapse in 2008. Subaru didn't share in any of the success that the other Japanese companies did during this time period. Subaru's 2006 record was set on the back of EXTREME incentive spending. Subaru repositioned pricing on all of its models in 2007 and cut incentive spending drastically. That caused Subaru to recoil. The record setting 2008 Impreza debuted that year to help mitigate the declining BL sales. 2008's resurgence was due to the 2009 Forester's March debut. 2009 saw almost all of Subaru's remaining model year 2009 Legacy and Outback inventory wiped out during cash for clunkers and lead to an early release of the BM in August The facts don't lie... These numbers are FHI's fiscal year end numbers (2008 would be sales ending March 2008) The BL generation Legacy and Outback was a complete and utter failure. They sold worse than the preceding models which didn't have turbos and premium aspirations. http://i.imgur.com/xGwI8kn.png Perhaps you should read through FHI's financials. They are available on FHI's site. FHI's operating profit was in sharp decline. FHI was unprofitable. FHI was unable to afford SIA's expenses with no Isuzu and selling far below the 250,000 needed to make the plant viable as a solo operation. On top of not selling enough cars, Subaru was spending through the nose on incentives. The JDM market was eroding fast. Subaru barely had a piece of the passenger car market and that was eroding as customers were switching to kei cars (which Subaru had even less market share of and were considerably less profitable than passenger cars). Subaru's global sales were down, the cost of raw materials like aluminum skyrocketed. The Yen was appreciating meaning less money was making it back to Japan. The dollar was depreciating meaning a double whammy. GM dropped its 20% investment and Toyota only picked up 8.4%. Subaru bought back almost all the rest for over $400 million... ouch! Look at industry sales 2004-2009.5. Now look at industry sales 2009.5 through 2013... You are completely backwards on the market conditions. Every single year the BM was on sale was during a MUCH smaller industry than the BL... and it sold in record numbers, with reduced incentives, in the middle of a recession. It's a sad fact, but the BL IS Subaru's biggest failure since the 1990 Legacy. Industry Sales 1999 16,958,568 2000 17,410,320 2001 17,177,445 2002 16,848,180 2003 16,675,648 2004 16,913,361 2005 16,997,203 2006 16,560,989 2007 16,154,064 2008 13,245,718 2009 10,431,510 2010 11,589,844 2011 12,778,885 2012 14,492,398 2012 14,492,398 2013 15,582,136 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Didn't read the thread, but frankly I'm shocked that folks here thought / hoped that there would be anything in the new Legacy lineup other than a 2.5 N/A and a 3.6 variation. A 4 banger with manual doesn't surprise me, along with the 6 cyl getting auto only. Anyone who was hoping for a turbo / blown option was delusional. I am guess I ended being one of the delusional ones. Before the 2015 rumor thread, I thought it was going to be a low chance of the 2.0DIT. The 2013/2014 and all 10-14 OB were 2.5 / 3.6. The OB being a historic sales leader has a lot of influence on the Legacy. However, my opinion changed as others LGT.com members made good points about the upcoming fuel economy standards. FXT, WRX, JDM Levorg, JDM Legacy all getting the FA20DIT. But what really got my hopes up is the reference by the printed and online media. Every spy shot/rumor column/Concept releases from the media brought about the GT. Obviously looking back, the 2.5 / 3.6 carryover makes sense. However if you use the same logic of 2.5/3.6 making sense, the dropping of the 2.5i 6MT does not. Current production of Subaru sold in the US (BRZ, Impreza, Crosstrek, WRX, Forester, Legacy, & Outback) all has MT available. The only recent exception has been the poor selling Tribeca (which has been discontinued for like 5 or 6 months now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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