krzyss Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 if I recall EPA letter claimed 1.6% failure rate (at the date it was written). It is probably higher now. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyT Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 subscribed. 63K....no problems yet....and I hope never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBlue96 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 if I recall EPA letter claimed 1.6% failure rate (at the date it was written). It is probably higher now. Krzys The 05 Legacy/Outback 2.5 turbo shows 4.55% failure. Almost 1 out of 20 have blown their turbos as of August 08. They refer to unscreened warranty claims, and I'm not completely sure what that means, but 1 out of 20 seems insanely high for a critical component on a modern car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 ^ Yup, this is dismal, and it's only beginning. More of these cars will fail over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConeEluder Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 After reading this thread, I am now somewhat concerned. I recently purchased a used 2005 LGT with around 51k miles on it - which is right around when a lot of people in this thread had turbo failures. After reading about the oil banjo filter screen, I am now considering a) taking it to Subaru and having them check/replace the filter, or b) just removing the filter myself. What, if any, are the negatives to not running a filter screen? I bought this used and therefore have no maintenance records, so I would never be able to get it warranted from the looks of others experiences if the worse does in fact happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LGT-Hank Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 The banjo bolt and screen can be replaced easily enough, and it can't hurt to have a clean one. Preferably you'd have the dealership do it after an oil change to make sure both were done properly and you have a record of it for future reference. What you may want to do, which is what I should have done, is also check the turbocharger center housing rotating assembly freeplay. There are two ways the CHRA will wear, radially (wobbling motion), and axially (in/out motion). You can check it yourself if you want by simply poking the inlet wheel with the piping removed, though you may not feel anything. A very small amount of play is enough to cause moderate damage. Though if you have other factors, such as rapidly decreasing oil levels, it would be the first place to go. On my failed turbo, the radial play was only one millimeter, however the axial play was twenty, way outside of specs. At any rate, if you are going to have the bolt and screen replaced, it would be a good idea for someone (you, the tech) to check the freeplay while they're in there. It's a very good indicator for how your turbo is doing health-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'd like to ask what could be a really dumb question. The turbo is blown in my 2006 outback and the mechanic where it is currently stuck at quoted $2950 for parts and labor. Is it an option to not replace the turbo at all and essentially downgrade to the non-turbocharged engine? How involved would that be? Considering the cost of replacement and the potential future cost of replacement again (as some on this board have posted), I'd almost prefer to not have the turbo at all... Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I'd like to ask what could be a really dumb question. The turbo is blown in my 2006 outback and the mechanic where it is currently stuck at quoted $2950 for parts and labor. Is it an option to not replace the turbo at all and essentially downgrade to the non-turbocharged engine? How involved would that be? Considering the cost of replacement and the potential future cost of replacement again (as some on this board have posted), I'd almost prefer to not have the turbo at all... Ken You are being hosed. The turbo costs ~$900 at a dealer and the labor is like 2-3 hours. You can pick used turbo for like $150-250 here and replace yourself. Gaskets will cost like $50-60. Definately find different mechanic, you're dealing with a crook. No, you CANNOT downgrade to non-turbo engine. It would total dog due to low compression turbo engine. Plus there is much work involved, fabrication, tuning, etc.... just forget it please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 You are being hosed. The turbo costs ~$900 at a dealer and the labor is like 2-3 hours. You can pick used turbo for like $150-250 here and replace yourself. Gaskets will cost like $50-60. Definately find different mechanic, you're dealing with a crook. No, you CANNOT downgrade to non-turbo engine. It would total dog due to low compression turbo engine. Plus there is much work involved, fabrication, tuning, etc.... just forget it please. Thank you, that is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm getting other quotes now, so far $1600 is the lowest. It's too easy to get taken advantage of... Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Don't forget you need to find out why the turbo failed. Low on oil? Neglected oil change? Search about banjo filter that could be clogged and restricted oil flow to the turbo. If that's not checked new turbo will die as well. If you were low on oil or the banjo was clogged there is a very good chance your engine is hurt as well. Drop the oil pan to inspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Don't forget you need to find out why the turbo failed. Low on oil? Neglected oil change? Search about banjo filter that could be clogged and restricted oil flow to the turbo. If that's not checked new turbo will die as well. If you were low on oil or the banjo was clogged there is a very good chance your engine is hurt as well. Drop the oil pan to inspect. Well I know first hand that the car was not low on oil, because I checked it myself a few hours before the breakdown and it was full. However, the mechanic tells me that the turbo failure was due to low oil, which implies that oil flow was restricted to the turbo. I'm still waiting on the oil test (with fingers crossed). Synthetic blend oil was used and it was changed regularly (~3k miles). Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well, if all guys, claiming that they changed oil within new recommended OCI (3750) and still getting turbo failure, are telling the truth then SOA will need to either reduce OCI (again) or specify different oil (finally). How does: "Change oil daily" sound? Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well I know first hand that the car was not low on oil, because I checked it myself a few hours before the breakdown and it was full. However, the mechanic tells me that the turbo failure was due to low oil, which implies that oil flow was restricted to the turbo. I'm still waiting on the oil test (with fingers crossed). Synthetic blend oil was used and it was changed regularly (~3k miles). Ken If it was restricted at the banjo filter, the oil was not only restricted at the turbo but also at passenger's side head. There is a line fed from the same source that supplies oil to cam sprocket (for variable timing) and front camshaft journal. You could have damage there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well I know first hand that the car was not low on oil, because I checked it myself a few hours before the breakdown and it was full. However, the mechanic tells me that the turbo failure was due to low oil, which implies that oil flow was restricted to the turbo. I'm still waiting on the oil test (with fingers crossed). Synthetic blend oil was used and it was changed regularly (~3k miles). Ken Oil was clean...phew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyT Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is getting really scarey. I feel like I'm driving a time bomb! After following this and the banjo filter thread it seems that the common thread is the use of full synthetic or synthetic blend oils. It would also be interesting to see if a cracked oil pickup tube accompanies the blown turbo. Cross referencing oil-type, brand and if the pickup tube is cracked could be valuable info. What do you folks think? Or is it a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is getting really scarey. I feel like I'm driving a time bomb! After following this and the banjo filter thread it seems that the common thread is the use of full synthetic or synthetic blend oils. It would also be interesting to see if a cracked oil pickup tube accompanies the blown turbo. Cross referencing oil-type, brand and if the pickup tube is cracked could be valuable info. What do you folks think? Or is it a waste of time. The funny thing is that I've had two mechanics (one subaru "expert" and one official subaru mechanic from a dealer) tell me explicitly that subaru turbo engines should never use synthetic oil. One mechanic suggested I switch to non-synthetic oil. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 ^ They are idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have had the same thing told to me by over 5 subaru master techs from different dealers as well as the district area manager for southern california so I wouldn't say they are "idiots" OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I have had the same thing told to me by over 5 subaru master techs from different dealers as well as the district area manager for southern california so I wouldn't say they are "idiots" Yes, sadly, they are. I also heard about "master techs" with "30 years of experience" repeating that nonsense. These people have no clue. They don't understand that the lines between synthetic and non-synthetic are very blurred. Most "full synthetics" are really highly refined mineral oils (group III), many other are blends. Heck, some dino oils are in fact blends with group III base and are not advertised as synthetics. Base oils is not the end. Then there are additive packages. Many advanced dinos have strong additive packages that rival or exceed "synthetic" oils. Bottom line is these people are wrench turners and have no clue what's inside the oil chemistry. Their anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. I noticed the older the mechanics are the more stuck in urban legends originating in 1970s they seem to be. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Name: Ken Halvorsen Make: 2006 Outback XT LTD Mileage: ~68000 Time Out Of Use: 1 week so far Problem And Likely Cause: turbo failure due to low oil Modifications: none Submitted For Warranty Work (Yes/No): Yes Reason Given For Denial (if applicable): None yet Your Story: I bought the car used only a few weeks ago from a private party sale with ~66,000 miles on it. Last week I took off on a short trip with the family and started hearing a whirring/whistling sound on the highway - it almost sounded like really high winds. The car started losing acceleration and eventually I had to pull over and get towed to the nearest subaru mechanic (which is not that fun when you're away from home with a toddler and infant in the car). A couple of days later I find out that the turbo is blown due to low oil (bone dry was his exact phrasing I think), and the mechanic quotes $2950 for replacement. Luckily, the damage seems to be limited to the turbo, as the engine oil had no evidence of debris. Interestingly, I had checked the engine oil only a few hours prior to the breakdown and it was full. I'm currently having it towed to the closest subaru dealer for replacement (quoted $1600), which will hopefully be under warranty. Despite much misinformation from several subaru mechanics and dealers, I have finally confirmed that my turbocharger assembly is (in theory) covered by the 7/70,000 California emission warranty (car was sold and used in Mass., which adopted the California standard). So now I'm gearing up for a big warranty fight with Subaru. The previous owner had access to mechanics at his workplace who used synthetic-blend oil and replaced it for him every 3000 miles. I have only owned the car for about 2,000 miles. Unfortunately, no oil change records exist. Hopefully, the evidence on this board coupled with the warranty clause "SOA will not deny a warranty claim solely because you have no record of maintenance" and my persistence will be enough to get coverage. Any additional suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeAldea Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Yes, sadly, they are. I also heard about "master techs" with "30 years of experience" repeating that nonsense. These people have no clue. They don't understand that the lines between synthetic and non-synthetic are very blurred. Most "full synthetics" are really highly refined mineral oils (group III), many other are blends. Heck, some dino oils are in fact blends with group III base and are not advertised as synthetics. Base oils is not the end. Then there are additive packages. Many advanced dinos have strong additive packages that rival or exceed "synthetic" oils. Bottom line is these people are wrench turners and have no clue what's inside the oil chemistry. Their anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. I noticed the older the mechanics are the more stuck in urban legends originating in 1970s they seem to be. Please. The only good reason I've heard for not using synthetic oil is it is a waste of money. If you are changing the oil every 3000 miles, even the cheapest dino oil is not likely to break down. Every shop I've spoken to feels checking the banjo bolt screen is unnecessary if you change your oil often enough that it doesn't get dirty. I'm sure they say that because getting to the banjo bolt is such a pain in the ass for just an inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 The only good reason I've heard for not using synthetic oil is it is a waste of money. If you are changing the oil every 3000 miles, even the cheapest dino oil is not likely to break down. Every shop I've spoken to feels checking the banjo bolt screen is unnecessary if you change your oil often enough that it doesn't get dirty. I'm sure they say that because getting to the banjo bolt is such a pain in the ass for just an inspection. Unfortunately most dinos will break down in our engines. Mobil 5000 5w30 becomes 20 SAE in 200 miles. Really. I found it via UOA. Then there is fuel dilution of the oil, which kills even the best synthetic. The amount of it may vary - depends on the driving conditions, amount of idling, tune, condition of injectors, level of blow by, etc. Bottom line is my recommendation is to run good synthetic oil, preferably on a heavier SAE 30 side or SAE 40 (I had good results with GC 0w30 and Mobil 1 10w30 High Mileage), and change it between 2.5-5k miles, depending on how hard you drive. If my oil sees track it won't stay longer than 1k miles in the engine. It always boggles my mind people balk at added expense of synthetic oils. It's a drop compared to other car expenses.... gas, insurance, repairs (and mods ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad023 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 61000k turbo oil seal failed compressor side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryD Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Just want to get my facts straight when talking with the dealer and SoA. They say lack of/no motor oil hence turbo blows, I/we say constriction of oil flow therefore turbo blows (this explains why no ones oil pressure light comes on). Many of us are sure we had oil in our motors, however the dealer diagnoses and contends that there is insufficient oil or even no oil in our motor hence the turbo blows. So my question is where does the oil go? My simple interpretation is that turbo failure causes the motor to be compromised and the oil to spew out onto the ground. But I've read here various comments about the oil accumulating in the up pipe or other places that it's not supposed to be. I admit my car knowledge is not anywhere close to mechanic level so please do correct my faulty interpretations. In my particular case I'm sure I had oil in the motor but the repair invoice states the cause of my check engine light and turbo failure was not low but "no engine oil". Really?? Thanks for your input. -Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I have had oil consumtion issues for the past 20k miles and the main place oil seems to go is in the pcv system which takes it away from the operation it was intended for in the motor. I've had multiple test done by the dealer and multiple times they have said eveything is fine. Last oil change they had the results from our multiple consumption test which were that I lose 1qt every 1159 miles which is a lot but SOA says 1qt every 1000 miles to them is exessive so sadly to them it's not messed up enough yet to do anything about it. I carry 1qt in my trunk now for those times I have to add oil. OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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