eVoMotion Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 :whore:please It might be a help to others on this board if you could post your letter so we could see how you made your arguement for reimbursement so successfully. After all they had turned you down once so I suspect you wrote a really good letter to get them to change their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Good idea...I've posted it below. My general suggestions for these types of letters (you may disagree - I'm no expert) are: 1)Keep it short so someone will read the entire thing (<1 printed page) 2)Explain the point of the letter in the first sentence 3)Express your disappointment with the brand, and how the event could jeopardize your brand loyalty (even if you don't have any, make it sound like you do) 4)Support your position with whatever evidence you've got To Whom It May Concern, I am writing to express my discontent regarding a recently denied warranty claim (SRA 1-XXXXXXXXX). At issue is replacement of a failed turbocharger, which occurred at ~68,000 miles, and is covered for my vehicle under the 7 year/70,000 mile California emission control system warranty (as I independently learned, despite being told otherwise from more than one Subaru representative). After owning my first Subaru (a second hand 2006 Outback XT LTD) for just a few weeks, it is an understatement to say I was shocked when a complete and abrupt failure of the turbocharger left my family stuck on the highway waiting for a tow truck. I was further shocked that Subaru denied my warranty claim on the grounds that the car was improperly maintained, which I know to be false. The previous owner took outstanding care of the car, performing frequent oil changes (every 3000 miles) despite using it for a highway commute (i.e. not “harsh driving conditions”). The car is otherwise in terrific condition. Oil change records do not exist since the previous owner did them independently, but this proof is not required for warranty work ("Subaru of America, Inc. cannot deny warranty solely for the lack of receipts or for your failure to ensure the performance of all scheduled maintenance"). Independent research supports the claim that my problem was not an isolated incident due to poor maintenance, but rather the result of sub-par engineering which has caused widespread turbo failure due to oil starvation problems (see attached EDIR and TSB, and http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83047). Failure rates as high as 4.5% in only 3 years are indicative of a bad design, and as an engineer I’m forced to wonder about the logic behind the banjo mesh screen, which often causes abrupt turbo failure without a low oil warning as a result of doing its intended task (i.e. blocking particles). It’s hard to imagine that bad oil going to the turbo is worse than no oil going to the turbo. Another oil pressure sensor after the banjo screen could have saved many turbos (mine included). Following this unexpected and costly failure (~$2000 - receipts attached) from what I thought would be an ideal family car and my subsequent denial of warranty, I am tempted to write off Subaru as a brand to avoid in the future. Perhaps if Subaru is willing to reconsider my warranty claim then I will reconsider Subaru as well. I’d prefer not to have to file this complaint with the Massachusetts Attorney General’s office. I anxiously await your written response. It might be a help to others on this board if you could post your letter so we could see how you made your arguement for reimbursement so successfully. After all they had turned you down once so I suspect you wrote a really good letter to get them to change their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vineee Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 do all subarus fall under the "calfiornia emissions control warranty" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjr Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 As an owner of a 2008 GT and looking over the majority of these pages, I can't help but to notice that most if not all of the failures reported here are from 2005 models, I think I saw one 2006 Outback. Now I am a new owner and member to this board, but I believe I read that the turbo design has changed over the years. It would seem to me that maybe this turbo in those years is prone to failure and should be recalled immediately. Also I am of the opinion that the filter needs to be removed from the banjo bolt. Bad oil is better then no oil at all IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYtoVT Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 halvorka, thanks for this info! I'm presently going through the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eVoMotion Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 :whore::whore: YOU ROCK! halvorka, thanks for this info! I'm presently going through the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halvorka Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 This is surprisingly difficult to get information about, but there are a handful of states that have adopted the california emissions standard, which includes special warranties independent of car manufacturer (which is also why the car dealership is unlikely to bring this mandated warranty to your attention). I'm not sure of all the states covered, but I know it includes California, Massachusetts, and Vermont. Check your warranty manual for more info. If you call subaru of america and ask them specifically if your vehicle is covered by the california emissions control warranty, they should tell you. The two dealers I dealt with wrongly told me it didn't apply to my situation, even after one "looked into it" for me and called back later. Ken do all subarus fall under the "calfiornia emissions control warranty" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 car dealerships should have lawsuits against them for falsely having customers paying for work that legally is covered. OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vineee Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 UPDATE!!! spoke to the service manager a little while ago and he informed me that they dropped the pan and in his opinion the oil dident look bad but said the final decision rested with the subaru rep who would give his opinion tomorrow. trying not to get ahead of myself but i would think that the if the service managers opinion is that the oil looked "not bad" this should work out ... i will let ya know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g davis Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 2005 legacy gt limited 85,000 miles k&n intake sunday evening shop says turbo is blown. while normal driving on the highway, just stopped working. no winning, grinding or noise at all. car lost power warrantee expired oil in turbo and engine seemed good and full with no metal shavings any suggestions? where can i get a vf52? how much? would a fuel pump and tune be sufficient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g davis Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 would the turbo stop working for another reason? could it not be blown? there was no noise or grinding, just a significant lack of power but my shop said it's shot. are they trying to stick it to me? thank you all for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatesGr8 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 The easiest way to find out if the turbo is damaged would be to drop the downpipe and check out the hot side of the turbo. This can be done in under an hour with a few jack stands and some simple tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vineee Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Aaahh!! just head from service manager all was cleared with subaru im good to go.. thanks for all the input it was a great deal of help... vinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vineee Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 p.s.any questions u can find me in the honda forums from now on!!!!!haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__raj Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Aaahh!! just head from service manager all was cleared with subaru im good to go.. thanks for all the input it was a great deal of help... vinny Sounds like a standard warranty claim, ask for oil receipts and dealer checks with rep if more $$$$. Sorry about your misinformed dealership. Nothing out of the ordinary here. Glad it worked out fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitehe9 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 ARRRGH. I have an 05 GT ltd. wagon manual w/67,000 miles and the turbo bearings blew this week. My mechanic said it killed my turbo & intercooler due to shredded bits of turbo that went into the cooler. I'll be watching this thread closely but I don't really think Subaru will do anything about it as I'm out of the subaru warranty. I need to find a turbo. Wondering if I should go aftermarket or if that will force me into a bunch of intake/exhaust upgrades. Any suggestions? I need my car back so I must act in the next week or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3L1onz Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 ARRRGH. I have an 05 GT ltd. wagon manual w/67,000 miles and the turbo bearings blew this week. My mechanic said it killed my turbo & intercooler due to shredded bits of turbo that went into the cooler. I'll be watching this thread closely but I don't really think Subaru will do anything about it as I'm out of the subaru warranty. I need to find a turbo. Wondering if I should go aftermarket or if that will force me into a bunch of intake/exhaust upgrades. Any suggestions? I need my car back so I must act in the next week or 2. I had to do the same and managed to pick up a used VF46 from someone on the forum. Think I got lucky as I didn't get any other responses on my WTB post yet. But this is a great place to find stuff. I also registered at junkyarddog.com and received a couple of calls within minutes. I went for the VF46 (MY07) so that I didn't get another VF40 which could blow. Anyway they have a used VF46 for $700 shipped at this junkyard - thoroughbred auto parts customerservice@thoroughbredautoparts.com (866) 551-2818 Otherwise try to hit up MOMSWAGON - I think he may have had a used VF40 going cheap. Good luck man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxn123 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Name: Rob Make: '05 LGT Mileage: 46360 Time Out Of Use: 4 days and counting. Problem And Likely Cause: Turbocharger oil seals, bearings, unknown cause Modifications: None Submitted For Warranty Work (Yes/No): Yes Reason Given For Denial (if applicable): Your Story: Driving on country road when car started making marble/grinding noises from turbo. Towed to dealer where I had to prove all oil changes since I purchased the car two years ago and 18k miles. Covered under warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datrumole Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Does anyone recommend a turbo timer? Does this really prolong the life of my turbo? I'm curious, because its a cheap enough part vs the cost of a turbo if it will actually be useful. another question, does the subi gt have a water line to the turbo? if so, then i guess this wouldnt be needed as the water would circulate even when the car is off, letting the turbo to cool down....thoughts?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitehe9 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Thanks for the advice. Picked up a 10,000mi VF46 on ebay for 300+ship. can't wait. my mechanic says he knows how to fix the problem permanently by rerouting the oil lines etc. i'll post after I have it installed and let people know what he did. BTW, anyone with blown turbo & problems with SOA, refer to the following website http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=Info_SubaruOil and tell them you learned of the two bulletins at the bottom of the screen. This sparked my dealership and SOA's interest when I spoke with them on the phone. I'm still going to pursure SOA for the work but at least I now have a cheap backup plan. ALSO ANYONE WITH THIS PROBLEM SHOULD REPORT IMMEDIATELY TO NSHTA. Lets see if the Feds require SOA fix this problem before it happens to 1000s of other GT owners. $10 fix for potential $2000 repair. what a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitehe9 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 EvoMotion (intercooler) my mechanic is a and is top notch trustworthy import mechanic. I don't use the Stealers unless I'm covered under warranty. I'm not sure how he figure out the intercooler was fried but he said based on the look of my turbo, things definately traveled downstream. I've also read on this forum that if you check the oil pan for metal shards, it tells you the turbo guts went through your engine too. I'll have him pull that to inspect. Not sure what the ramifications of sending metal shreds through your engine are but they can't be good. SOA has a lot of explaining to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3L1onz Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Well I got the VF46 installed and it's great to have the car and the boost back. Shame about all the oil in the engine bay, smokin and stinkin up the place. But hopefully that'll go away soon - unlike the damage to my bank account. Cheers to everyone with help and suggestions on getting back on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryD Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Saw everyone's posts, pretty much describe my situation to a T. CEL w/flashing cruise control light, followed by intermittent whooping sounds (turbo going down) and ultimately some grinding, rattling noise from motor (this only started in the parking lot of dealership so I'm hoping motor not damaged). Dealership says no oil is the cause, puzzling to me since I am meticulous about getting oil changed every 3-3.5K and it was right at 3.3K since last. Car has 70,347 and is not under warranty and I am the original owner. Have had all major maintenances (last one at 60K) at the dealership but most oil changes at Jiffy or Valvoline. Do I have a leg to stand on, is it worth haggling the dealership and ultimately SOA if I have to? Any and all advice appreciated. Thanks, Jerry Looks like you answered your own question. Why would you need to haggle or go to SOA? Here's why: Already lawyered up and well down the road of pursuing legal options I decided to follow through with letter writing campaign. The letter (posted below) was sent to 6 different highest-ups in Subaru/ Fuji Heavy Industries; a CSR from the office of Tomohiko Ikeda got back to me quite quickly. The CSR requested only my 30K and 60K major maintenance records (all done at dealer)- no oil change records. I faxed, ~1d later the CSR responded- will cover my repair in full because upon reviewing my service records I am a conscientious car owner and took care of the car (ie. I spent money at the dealer). Note (s): 1) car was at 70K, no warranty 2) the entire time the dealership was telling me I had no leg to stand on- in fact ~20min before the CSR called me to say they would cover in full I received a call from dealership service dept to tell me that they received my letter, SoA rep was just in/discussed my case and I am SoL!? Don't bother with the dealership, they just do as they are told. Anyways, got the check from SoA just over $2K, the exact cost of turbo replacement and labor. Accompanying letter was quite apologetic and sympathetic to my "gasket problem"...!!?? I hope this info and letter (posted below) is useful to you in your quest to recoup damages. -JD Subaru of America, Inc. Subaru Plaza P.O. Box 6000 Cherry Hill, NJ 08034-6000 Attn: Tomohiko Ikeda Mr.Ikeda: My had a good experience purchasing and operating a Subaru from _____ Subaru in _____, MA U.S.A. ____ experience helped me decide to purchase a new 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Limited wagon in November 2005 from the same dealer. The purchase process went well and the car has been a pleasure to drive, particularly on my otherwise aggravating 1 hour commute to/from work, not to mention while transporting my wife and young family. Until just recently I was inclined to make another purchase of a Subaru vehicle when the necessity arose. Tuesday January____, 2009, while operating my vehicle, the check engine light came on, the cruise control light flashed and some abnormal “whooping” noise emitted briefly and intermittently from the front of the car. After contacting _____ Subaru service department and being informed that the symptoms were almost certainly due to a non-emergency, emissions problem (did I “…tighten gas cap?”). However, I requested and then drove the car to the dealership for service. The next day I was informed by _____ Subaru service department that the problem was a destroyed turbocharger, costing ~1900.00$ to fix. The diagnosis was no/insufficient oil in the motor which caused my turbocharger to malfunction. I’ve been vigilant about caring for the car. All of the major maintenances and some oil changes have been performed at ______ Subaru. I have the oil changed, predominantly at Valvoline or Jiffy Lube. Totally at a loss for how there could be no oil in the motor, not to mention a major malfunction, I investigated the issue further. Much to my surprise a plethora of other instances of stock turbochargers malfunctioning on Subarus exists. In fact there is ample and mounting, relevant information from several sources which include but are not limited to: 1. The Legacy Owners Association website: http://www.legacygt.com/? And http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83047 2. Subaru Technical Service Bulletins: TSB 02-103-07 and TSB 02-106-08 3. Environmental Protection Agency Document: EPA-HQ-OAR-2005-0113-1038-1 I could detail the information in these documents here but I won’t because you are aware of the problems surrounding the turbochargers and flawed motor design on these cars. In summary, these information sources demonstrate the culpability of Subaru of America and Fuji Heavy Industries, Inc. with regards to this turbocharger and motor malfunction. I would like to know what Subaru is doing to address the flawed oil supply mechanism to the turbochargers of these motors and how you intend to provide relief to those of us who own the affected cars. Please update with me with any relevant information. I have, in good faith, tried to reason with the _____ Subaru dealership service department and in a call placed to Subaru of America representative _______ on or about 1/15/09. In both cases my inquiries did not lead to any admission of an inherent flaw in the motor design or an offer or reparation. Unfortunately, both Subaru of America and _____ Subaru representatives have made an absolute denial of any such responsibility. I am a busy person with family and professional responsibilities. The last thing I want to do is write this letter. However let me assure you that I am committed to pursuing all possible avenues of recourse to re-gain the cost of my car repair. This letter is but one avenue. I request that you reimburse me in full for the cost ($_____) of repairs to my vehicle as soon as possible. I also expect that Subaru will put in place a safeguard mechanism to deal with additional turbocharger malfunctions later on during the life of the car. Please restore some of my faith in Subaru, I really do like your vehicles. Sincerely, Cc: Subaru of Indiana Automotive, Inc. Fuji Heavy Industries U.S.A., Inc ______ Subaru, ______, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eVoMotion Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Detailed, thorough and effective reply. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniStiGuy Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I like your writing style OEM HID's Rx330 Retro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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