Found what happened to my oil... and it's not on the driveway

[ShrinerMonkey]

This happens with all oils. Synths are generally more resistant to shearing. Over on BITOG, its been reported that some of the popular 5w-30's shear to ~20w in less than 2,000 miles in N/A engines....turbo's must murder those oils.

 

The lower the spread between the low and high #'s on the oil, generally the more shear-stable the oil is. When there is a large spread, the polymers used to create that spread break down, = shearing.

 

When I had my LGT I never used a 5w-anything, and always used 10w-30 synthetics. They flow so much better in the cold and won't coke and choke in the heat.

Actually a 10w would flow LESS in the cold than a 5W. Most engine wear happens at startup, that is why I always use an oil with a low temp pour point like a 0w or 5w. There is no reason to use a 10w unless you live in a very warm climate: From this site - http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm

"5W30 versus 10W30

Virtually all new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. use either 5W30 or 10W30 oil. The difference between the two is that the 5W30 flows better when cold, so if you live in a cold climate or operate your vehicle in a cold climate during the winter months, you should use 5W30 if it is the preferred oil for your vehicle. If you live in a sub-tropical climate and don't operate your vehicle in cold climates, then 10W30 is acceptable as long as the manufacturer specifies that it is permissible to use it."

and

"Older cars may specify 10W30 only. This is because they need a little more viscosity when cold to keep a protective film on the cylinder walls. There have been instances where the larger amount of viscosity modifiers that are present in 5W30 have broken down due to excessive heat and have left carbon deposits on the valves, but this is extremely rare. The proper fix would be to reduce the excessive heat, but the workaround was to use an oil with less viscosity modifiers."

 

I used 0w-40 in my VW 1.8T, many owners also used the GC or other brand 0w-30 with good results. These are oils that are both approved by VW to be used in their turbo charged engines. A 0w-30, 5w-30 and a 10w-30 will be the same viscosity at operating temperature, so there is no reason to use a 10w. You want oil flowing to your engine parts as soon as possible after startup, with a 10w some of the parts will be oil starved longer.

[turbo427]

The best way to determine what’s best for you is to get an Oil Analysis. Put 0w-30 in for 3 month then do analysis, try 5w-30 for 3 month then do analysis, then try 10w-30 for 3 month. As long as the mileage is +-10%, weather is not to different (first sample in summer 90F and last sample -20F) then you should have a good idea of which oil is working for you the best. Then look at Pour Point and Viscosity this should tell you how munch of the original value is left. Particle Count and Any Spectrometric Metals this last one is the big one they will look at some 21 different metals with a spectrum analyzer, your report will have numbers for copper, nickel, brass and what ever else is in the engine. Some metal wear is normal but what you want to look for is which oil is giving you less wear (less wear is lower numbers in the metals category) it will also tell things like water if you have a coolant leak. The oil analysis is between 25 and 100 dollars it’s been 10yrs since I got them for aircraft, so don’t hold me to the price.

[Ed_T]

Actually a 10w would flow LESS in the cold than a 5W. Most engine wear happens at startup, that is why I always use an oil with a low temp pour point like a 0w or 5w. There is no reason to use a 10w unless you live in a very warm climate: From this site - http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm

"5W30 versus 10W30

Virtually all new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. use either 5W30 or 10W30 oil. The difference between the two is that the 5W30 flows better when cold, so if you live in a cold climate or operate your vehicle in a cold climate during the winter months, you should use 5W30 if it is the preferred oil for your vehicle. If you live in a sub-tropical climate and don't operate your vehicle in cold climates, then 10W30 is acceptable as long as the manufacturer specifies that it is permissible to use it."

and

"Older cars may specify 10W30 only. This is because they need a little more viscosity when cold to keep a protective film on the cylinder walls. There have been instances where the larger amount of viscosity modifiers that are present in 5W30 have broken down due to excessive heat and have left carbon deposits on the valves, but this is extremely rare. The proper fix would be to reduce the excessive heat, but the workaround was to use an oil with less viscosity modifiers."

 

I used 0w-40 in my VW 1.8T, many owners also used the GC or other brand 0w-30 with good results. These are oils that are both approved by VW to be used in their turbo charged engines. A 0w-30, 5w-30 and a 10w-30 will be the same viscosity at operating temperature, so there is no reason to use a 10w. You want oil flowing to your engine parts as soon as possible after startup, with a 10w some of the parts will be oil starved longer.

 

A quality synth 10w- has no problems flowing in the cold. M1 is a prime example. Flows better than dino 5w- .

[stewartg]

the thread that will never die. unsubscribed.

[turbo427]

Ed_T

 

Yes and No 10w is fine in your average winter is above 32 degrees, but if your average is below 0 than you would want to go 5w or 0w when they set the “w” factor thats a standard SAE test (kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C), so dino and synth would be the same. but synth uses less viscosity modifiers or additive to bring the oil down to 5w or 0w this is also better these viscosity modifiers break down over time.

[turbo427]

My bad just check some of my old notes. The first number (the "5" in 5w30) is only a relative number which basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over" at low temperatures. It is NOT a viscosity reference. In other words, a 10w30 is NOT a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures.

[turbo427]

Note from Mechanic ASE classes sorry about length:

 

So, if a multi-grade oil, when heated to 100 degrees C, falls within a certain kinematic viscosity it is classified as a certain SAE grade (the last number - like the "30" in 5w30). In other words, the kinematic viscosity of a 5w30 multi-viscosity oil falls within the same range at 100 degrees C as a monograde SAE 30 weight oil does. A multi-viscosity oil also has to meet a "High Temperature/High Shear" requirement, but I'll talk about

that in a minute. The first number (the "5" in 5w30) is only a relative number which basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over" at low temperatures. It is NOT a viscosity reference. In other words, a 10w30 is NOT a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures. In fact, since SAE viscosity classifications only apply to an oil at 100 degrees C, it doesn't even make sense to label it as a certain SAE viscosity at any temperature other than 100 degrees C. Besides, if you thought about it for a second, it wouldn't make sense for a 10w30 oil to be a 10 weight oil in the cold and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures. What liquid do you know of that gets "thicker" as its temperature increases or "thinner" as the temperature decreases?I would venture to say you probably can't come up with one. This holds true for motor oil as well. If a 10w30 was a 30 weight oil at 100 degrees C and a 10 weight oil at cold temperatures, that would mean it "thinned out" as the temperature dropped. That just doesn't make any sense considering what we know about liquids. It just doesn't happen like that. The fact is that a 5w30 motor oil is thicker in cold temperatures than in warm temperatures. However, a 5w30 motor oil will be thinner than a 10w30 motor oil when subjected to the same low temperature conditions - because the "W" number is lower. This is an indication of better cold weather performance. In other words, a 5w30 flows better in cold weather than a 10w30 motor oil will. Think of the "W" as a

"winter" classification instead of a "weight" classification. Results from the Cold Crank Simulator (CCS) and Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV) tests are used to determine the oil's "W" grade. The better the engine "startability" of the oil at low temperature, the lower

the W classification. Each W grade must meet certain "startability" requirements at a specified temperature. For instance, a 0W grade oil must have a maximum CCS centipoise (cP) value of 3250 @ -30 degrees C as well as a maximum MRV cP of 60,000 @ -40 degrees C. A 5W grade oil must have a maximum CCS cP value of 3500 @ -25 degree C and a maximum MRV cP of 60,000 @ -30 degrees C. The

lower the cP value for both specifications, the better. Notice that the 0W grade oil is tested at a lower temperature on both tests AND must still have a lower CCS cP value than a 5W oil which is tested at a higher temperature. As a result, a 0w30 will allow your

vehicle to start easier on a cold morning than a 5w30 will. Likewise, a 5w30 oil will pump easier in cold temperatures than a 10w30 oil will. Nevertheless, at 100 degrees C, they all fall within the same kinematic viscosity range. Therefore, they are all classified as SAE 30 weight oils at 100 degrees C. In other words, after your engine has warmed

up, a 0w30 and 10w30 motor oil are basically the same thickness (within a certain SAE specified range). Of course, although this is true when the oil comes out of the bottle, we'll see in the next section that, with petroleum oils at least, the viscosity that comes out of the bottle may not necessarily be the viscosity that you find within your engine after a short period of driving.

[mccorry]

Waiting for next section..... good reading.

 

It's nice to see factual information on this site from time to time.

[ShrinerMonkey]

A quality synth 10w- has no problems flowing in the cold. M1 is a prime example. Flows better than dino 5w- .

Excellent. Let's use M1 to prove my point. Someone on BITOG posted a great illustration of the thin oil myth: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=711581&an=0&page=0#Post711581

 

Here is an exerpt....

 

""Why isn't 5w-30 or 0w-30 thin?"

I think a real-life example will help.

 

• Lets compare Mobil1 5w-30 to Mobil1 10w-30.
  
  • First the Hot (100 c) setting
    Straight from Mobil1's datasheet (Looked on April 4, 2006):
    
    • 5w-30 = 11.3 cST
      
    • 10w-30 = 10.0 cST

    Looks like the 5w-30 is thicker! (Notice how both oils are a "30" weight)

  • Now lets look at the cold setting
    Based on the 5w and 10w specifications:
    
    • 
      
    • 5w-30 = 6600 cP or less @ -30c
      
    • 10w-30 = 7000 cp or less @ -25c

    Looks like 5w-30 is thinner than 10w-30!

• We can conclude that:
  
  • 
    
  • 5w-30 is thinner than 10w-30 at -25c.
    
  • 5w-30 is thicker than 10w-30 at 100c."

So, yes it will flow in the cold, but not as well. But, not only are you getting less protection at start up (although negligible), you are also getting a thinner oil at temp. The lesson from all this is that you can't just go by grade because every oil is different. However, after a lot of research I have determined that it makes little sense to use a 10w oil unless it suits your particular situation, of which their are few. I just can't see using a 10w when a 0w or 5w would do just as well if not better. The only advantage I can see is price because 10w tend to be cheaper because they are made out of lower quality base stocks than most of the 5w- oils. Another may be shear stability, but that could only be determined with a UOA.

 

Using a 10w is really no big deal either way, but all things being equal I just can't see using it when 5w or 0w are readily available. I certainly don't see your justification of the added protection since I just showed that you actually get LESS with the 10w.

 

For my situation, I don't drive my car hard and live in a temperate climate (very few days over 100F and few below 0F). Also the NA 2.5i is proven to be a very low wear engine with any oil and is very easy on oil, so I stick with dino juice because synthetic is just not worth the $$ for the limited advantages. The main source of wear for me will be at startup, I want the oil getting to the parts ASAP so I use oils that have a very low cST at low temps. So for me it is 5w-30 dino (dealer changes with Chevron Supreme, an excellent dino oil BTW) with a 5k mile OCI (splitting the dif between SOA's normal and severe schedule.) Turbos are a whole other ball of wax. Some UOAs on BITOG on turbo 2.5s are showing good results with dinos like Castrol GTX but this is with 3k mile changes. Personally, I wouldn't risk putting anything less than a high quality synth blend in a turbo motor.

[turbo427]

ShrinerMonkey

 

If you read my earlier post the w or winter rating is not a measure of thickness or viscosity it Results from the Cold Crank Simulator (CCS) and Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV) tests are used to determine the oil's "W" grade. The better the engine "startability" of the oil at low temperature, the lower

the W classification. Not viscosity or thickness the actual pour point of three 5w oil maybe completely different.

[outahere]

Note from Mechanic ASE classes sorry about length:

 

............ Think of the "W" as a

"winter" classification instead of a "weight" classification. Results from the Cold Crank Simulator (CCS) and Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV) tests are used to determine the oil's "W" grade. The better the engine "startability" of the oil at low temperature, the lower

the W classification. Each W grade must meet certain "startability" requirements at a specified temperature. For instance, a 0W grade oil must have a maximum CCS centipoise (cP) value of 3250 @ -30 degrees C as well as a maximum MRV cP of 60,000 @ -40 degrees C. A 5W grade oil must have a maximum CCS cP value of 3500 @ -25 degree C and a maximum MRV cP of 60,000 @ -30 degrees C. The

lower the cP value for both specifications, the better. Notice that the 0W grade oil is tested at a lower temperature on both tests AND must still have a lower CCS cP value than a 5W oil which is tested at a higher temperature. As a result, a 0w30 will allow your

vehicle to start easier on a cold morning than a 5w30 will. Likewise, a 5w30 oil will pump easier in cold temperatures than a 10w30 oil will. Nevertheless, at 100 degrees C, they all fall within the same kinematic viscosity range. Therefore, they are all classified as SAE 30 weight oils at 100 degrees C............

 

The above needs to be in a FAQ somewhere on this site, and read by every automotive enthusiast. It is one of the best explanations of the "W" classification I have read anywhere.

[ShrinerMonkey]

ShrinerMonkey

 

If you read my earlier post the w or winter rating is not a measure of thickness or viscosity it Results from the Cold Crank Simulator (CCS) and Mini-Rotary Viscometer (MRV) tests are used to determine the oil's "W" grade. The better the engine "startability" of the oil at low temperature, the lower

the W classification. Not viscosity or thickness the actual pour point of three 5w oil maybe completely different.

Right, I never disagreed with that. But the better an oil flows at start (i.e. the startability) the faster and easier it will flow to vital engine components. I think you will be hard pressed to find a 10w that flows better when cold than a 5w or 0w.

[xjoecool85x]

I brought my LGT used from a dealer which I had no idea what kind of oil was in it. I'm guessing it' was SOA's oil so I changed to Mobil 1 5W-30 per what the manual recommends. It runs great and never had any problems only had minor consumption. But my burning question how the hell can German Castrol 0w-30 be better than Mobil 1? Maybe it's the special Euro Blend:lol: I'm guessing since I live in the North and I guess the lower the "W" Number is the oil will get to the engine faster but it won't be good in summer times. So I guess from my thinking is that 5w-30 is a good balance of what you do when you drive in the 4 seasons. I remember I was talking to my father when he was growing up on the farm in the HARSH North Dakota winters. He said that most of the time the old trucks he would put in 5w-30 or 10W-30 for winter. Summer times he puts in some heavy duty shit i have no idea what number but since the winters are cold like -30 below for 3 weeks and just taper off and stay around near freezing and summers can get to 100 for 2 to 3 weeks. So my thinking for turbo engines is that sythenic oils or partly whatever Mobil 1 is made of it's just a good balance. Anyways just my thoughts and I'm a noob on this oil thing. I read 23 friggin pages and none of it makes sense! POST 355 FTW

[ShrinerMonkey]

I brought my LGT used from a dealer which I had no idea what kind of oil was in it. I'm guessing it' was SOA's oil so I changed to Mobil 1 5W-30 per what the manual recommends. It runs great and never had any problems only had minor consumption. But my burning question how the hell can German Castrol 0w-30 be better than Mobil 1? Maybe it's the special Euro Blend:lol: I'm guessing since I live in the North and I guess the lower the "W" Number is the oil will get to the engine faster but it won't be good in summer times. So I guess from my thinking is that 5w-30 is a good balance of what you do when you drive in the 4 seasons. I remember I was talking to my father when he was growing up on the farm in the HARSH North Dakota winters. He said that most of the time the old trucks he would put in 5w-30 or 10W-30 for winter. Summer times he puts in some heavy duty shit i have no idea what number but since the winters are cold like -30 below for 3 weeks and just taper off and stay around near freezing and summers can get to 100 for 2 to 3 weeks. So my thinking for turbo engines is that sythenic oils or partly whatever Mobil 1 is made of it's just a good balance. Anyways just my thoughts and I'm a noob on this oil thing. I read 23 friggin pages and none of it makes sense! POST 355 FTW

There is a whole section in the BITOG forums dedicated the the "magical" German Castrol (green stuff). There are pictures in the forums of users enormous stockpiles of the stuff that they buy when it is on sale. It's fans are afraid that it will not be sold in the states anymore so they are stocking up. In summation, it is better than M1 because it is make out of group IV (PAO) base stocks, opposed to M1 which has been rumored to include group III base stocks (hydrocracked dino oil), hence GC is a TRUE synthetic. Here is a comparison of base stock performance: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=533

Mobil1 can get away with calling M1 a synthetic because of N. America's more leaniant labeling requirements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

GC is a VERY good oil, but some owners have reported problems with it in their particular engines just like any oil.

 

Apparently you haven't been reading this thread if you don't understand why a 0w-30 can be better than a 5w-30 and I will not repeat what I and others have already said. This makes it fairly clear: http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#5W30%20versus%2010W30

[xjoecool85x]

ok so from my understanding from the readings that u have posted the URL links. It doesn't really matter what kind of oil u use in the engine as long as it's sythenic and its' 5w-30 and 10w-30 to me it looks like there is not much difference right?

[PhilT]

ok so from my understanding from the readings that u have posted the URL links. It doesn't really matter what kind of oil u use in the engine as long as it's sythenic and its' 5w-30 and 10w-30 to me it looks like there is not much difference right?

 

You don't have to use synthetic at all, 115,000kms on dino and going strong.

[direavenger]

ok so from my understanding from the readings that u have posted the URL links. It doesn't really matter what kind of oil u use in the engine as long as it's sythenic and its' 5w-30 and 10w-30 to me it looks like there is not much difference right?

 

In my opinion, the only justification to the increased cost of synthetic is if you go with greater oil change intervals. 5k OCI here and going strong.

[ShrinerMonkey]

ok so from my understanding from the readings that u have posted the URL links. It doesn't really matter what kind of oil u use in the engine as long as it's sythenic and its' 5w-30 and 10w-30 to me it looks like there is not much difference right?

Not exactly. I would not use a 10w because their is no reason to. You don't HAVE to use a synthetic. However, from my experience with turbos and from what I have read, I would not use dino oil in a turbo. If you do, I would highly recommend getting a UOA at 3k miles to check out how it is holding up. The comments from people saying I have X miles/kms on my car and it is still going strong, running fine, etc... are worthless. Like was said before, they have no way of knowing what wear is happening inside their engine... the fact that it is still running is no measure of oil quality. Many VW owners were saying the same thing until their oil lights came on and their engines were sludged beyond repair.

[ShrinerMonkey]

In my opinion, the only justification to the increased cost of synthetic is if you go with greater oil change intervals. 5k OCI here and going strong.

Or for longevity. VW REQUIRED the use of synthetic with a 5k OCI in it's turbo 1.8T. This was after hundreds of sludged up engines. I would say not having a sludged up engine to be a good justification.

[xjoecool85x]

ah screw it lol I'm just gonna stick to Mobil 1 5w-30 it's readily available and I'm not too keen about switching to German Castrol. I'll just stick to Mobil 1. Thanks for all the info ShrinerMonkey

[turbo427]

Or for longevity. VW REQUIRED the use of synthetic with a 5k OCI in it's turbo 1.8T. This was after hundreds of sludged up engines. I would say not having a sludged up engine to be a good justification.

 

 

And you jump in on me for talking about less sludge.

[turbo427]

Right, I never disagreed with that. But the better an oil flows at start (i.e. the startability) the faster and easier it will flow to vital engine components. I think you will be hard pressed to find a 10w that flows better when cold than a 5w or 0w.

 

but to bring a 10w down 5w or 0w means adding more viscosity madifiers these brake down "helping" cause sludge "not" causing, because when it brake down the moelcule are still there but not doing any good.

[direavenger]

Or for longevity. VW REQUIRED the use of synthetic with a 5k OCI in it's turbo 1.8T. This was after hundreds of sludged up engines. I would say not having a sludged up engine to be a good justification.

 

The mere use of dino oil does not necessarily mean that you will have sludge. When the detergents run out, the dirt can no longer be kept in suspension, hence sludge. Synthetic and dino both do a perfectly acceptable job of this, its just that synthetic (on average) can do this longer. My argument is that the length of the OCI has a greater effect than the type of oil used.

[turbo427]

Synthetic oil is better than dino oil under just about every circumstance I have lots of experience with both If your budget is tight then extend oil changes out to double your dino oil then cost is the same, also on cost as dino oil keeps going up its going to catch up to synthetic. I think we have gone around this mountain and seems that we are getting nowhere those who like dino enjoy, those on the fence well do you have car insurance or extended warranty those are waste of money until you have an accident or car brakes down after 60,000, this is cheap insurance and if you want it could be free insurance. Any one saying you have to use SOA products SOA doesn’t make oil, they just get it package with there label.

 

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[PhilT]

Not exactly. I would not use a 10w because their is no reason to. You don't HAVE to use a synthetic. However, from my experience with turbos and from what I have read, I would not use dino oil in a turbo. If you do, I would highly recommend getting a UOA at 3k miles to check out how it is holding up. The comments from people saying I have X miles/kms on my car and it is still going strong, running fine, etc... are worthless. Like was said before, they have no way of knowing what wear is happening inside their engine... the fact that it is still running is no measure of oil quality. Many VW owners were saying the same thing until their oil lights came on and their engines were sludged beyond repair.

 

The fact that an engine has done xxx miles without problem is a very good indication of how things are running. How do you think OCI and TBO are set up in the first place ?

 

Synthetic oil does no better job of lubricating a turbo than a mineral oil.