6th Gen Tuning Thread

[tigger73]

Tuning and tuner "discussion" almost always ends up as a pissing contest as to whose tune is better.

 

Reality the only way to get a proper comparison is to do what BeastCoast is suggesting and doing some back to back testing. I'd like to see dyno runs with AFR to make sure any additional power being generated is not going too lean.

 

Plus you'll also want 0-60 times and some general drive-ability/subjective comparison for things like throttle response, etc.

 

Generally tuners don't like these comparisons unless their tune is best and inevitably it all ends up in tears for someone.

[PDREALTOR]

Tuning and tuner "discussion" almost always ends up as a pissing contest as to whose tune is better.

 

Reality the only way to get a proper comparison is to do what BeastCoast is suggesting and doing some back to back testing. I'd like to see dyno runs with AFR to make sure any additional power being generated is not going too lean.

Plus you'll also want 0-60 times and some general drive-ability/subjective comparison for things like throttle response, etc.

 

Generally tuners don't like these comparisons unless their tune is best and inevitably it all ends up in tears for someone.

 

That's kind of what I was implying by a race to the top. Could turn out no so good for the guy whose car is being used. Even best intentions can go wrong sometimes in a situation where it's all about winning.

[BeastCoast]

That's kind of what I was implying by a race to the top. Could turn out no so good for the guy whose car is being used. Even best intentions can go wrong sometimes in a situation where it's all about winning.

 

That's why I said I wouldn't put my wheels to a Dyno. And like I said before, pushing the 2.5i above 200-205HP would be a miracle so I feel like the main focus of any tune to this model should be based strictly on "feel" and "driveability".

[BeastCoast]

That's why I said I wouldn't put my wheels to a Dyno. And like I said before, pushing the 2.5i above 200-205HP would be a miracle so I feel like the main focus of any tune to this model should be based strictly on "feel" and "driveability".

 

***UPDATE***

 

Just emailed DynoTech near me and they said I could get 3-5 pulls within an hour with short cool down times in between for $150. Dependent on whether or not West_Minist contacts me I may schedule a time. $150 isn't a terrible price and its ultimately for the greater good so why the hell not. I figure I could try to get 2 solid pulls from both tunes with a decent cooldown time in between since I wont be rushing for a 5th pull. Thoughts?

[cerbomark]

subscribed...

[surmiser]

***UPDATE***

 

Just emailed DynoTech near me and they said I could get 3-5 pulls within an hour with short cool down times in between for $150. Dependent on whether or not West_Minist contacts me I may schedule a time. $150 isn't a terrible price and its ultimately for the greater good so why the hell not. I figure I could try to get 2 solid pulls from both tunes with a decent cooldown time in between since I wont be rushing for a 5th pull. Thoughts?

 

Dyno sounds like a decent deal, so I'd say got for it.

 

If your goal is comparison between two tunes though, just FYI that you can do virtual dynos for free via RomRaider, and if you do end up working with XRT, you'll be using RomRaider anyway.

 

That being said, a physical dyno run's still useful, and if you compare that to your virtual dyno runs on RomRaider, you'll then be able to accurately compensate for virtual dyno runs in future with just RomRaider.

[tigger73]

Locally I can get 3 power runs for AUD$60 = US$45 but that's on/off in 15 minutes.

 

You would have to do all the development with west_minist/XRT before going ahead plus to be fair to both give enough time for the new tune to adapt once it's loaded in..

 

I think it's a good thing that there's a couple of tuners/options for people and will hopefully provide some incentive for continual development with some friendly competition.

Edited December 20, 2016 by tigger73

[Timothy.B]

I'm gonna throw my 2c into this thread (what the heck am I thinking?)

 

I've been working with west_minist since the end of June and I have zero negatives to say. He's tuned my car far more than I expected it to go.

 

I've sent logs when I got home at 3AM and woke up at 11AM with a revision sitting in my email. He's even called and we've conversed on the phone.

 

Not saying, "TH doesn't know what he's doing, go with west_minist." It's silly to say. Others have good experiences with both people.

 

To put this the best way, not all people work with the same kinds of people. Some enjoy working with one or the other. So work with one, if you feel like you wanna switch, work with the other. There's also local people out there that are right down the road. As long as your car is safely tuned, and you're happy with it, what's to complain about?

 

As for my car itself.

 

https://youtu.be/E72mVBXPbB0

 

I'm hitting 5.5 seconds at times with 93 AKI and an AEM filter. That's it. It's very responsive and pulls nicely all the way up until redline. I'm very satisfied with the tune.

[BeastCoast]

Dyno sounds like a decent deal, so I'd say got for it.

 

If your goal is comparison between two tunes though, just FYI that you can do virtual dynos for free via RomRaider, and if you do end up working with XRT, you'll be using RomRaider anyway.

 

That being said, a physical dyno run's still useful, and if you compare that to your virtual dyno runs on RomRaider, you'll then be able to accurately compensate for virtual dyno runs in future with just RomRaider.

 

 

This is true, I forgot about that possibilty. I have used RomRaider before for a friend with his '08 LGT. I still have the program and all necessary parameters installed so this overall process should be pretty easy.

 

 

Email me any time. Tigger suppose to be testing but I haven't seen you yet

 

west_minist@xtremeracingtuning.com

 

I will be emailing you shortly

[BeastCoast]

Can I see the results from others than statements?

 

Can I see the results from tuners working on these cars?

 

I am the only tuner and except for a hand full who any can see they work and comments.

 

Any development is for the cvt operation and improving it. Please stop highlighting that the Gen 6 is this special. Please. What is missing is real logging of data like previous models.

 

This confuses me :confused:

[surmiser]

This confuses me :confused:

 

 

I think Ed is saying that because our Legacy BN9 is powered by an "old" FB25 engine, it isn't a special tuning case. The only new variable is the 2nd-gen CVT. So he's saying that 6th-gen tuning is essentially about optimising the CVT through indirect transmission tuning. But even though the FB25 isn't new, Ed still needs extensive data logs in order to maximise its potential (eg, ignition timing vs just throttle maps), which is where user commitment comes in.

 

Ed, please chime in if I'm misrepresenting you.

[surmiser]

Can the others tell me if they log for they tuners?

 

Yes.

 

Do you know how well the car is in consistent in power delivery?

 

 

Yes.

[surmiser]

I'm hitting 5.5 seconds at times with 93 AKI and an AEM filter. That's it. It's very responsive and pulls nicely all the way up until redline. I'm very satisfied with the tune.

 

 

A 5.5s 0-60 with an NA 3.6, with nothing but premium gas and a drop-in filter, is fierce. How did you time yourself, and were you in auto or manual mode? Have you dynoed your tune?

[Da Roo]

I have no experience with either tuner, but personally I would go with Matt at TH if/when I get ready to tune. Matt clearly is capable of communicating without a language barrier and that to me is much more valuable because we can discuss what he is doing to my 30k car. Just my 2 cents from reading the tuners' posts in here

 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

 

After hurting my brain the last couple pages.

 

 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[Timothy.B]

A 5.5s 0-60 with an NA 3.6, with nothing but premium gas and a drop-in filter, is fierce. How did you time yourself, and were you in auto or manual mode? Have you dynoed your tune?

 

Haven't gotten on a dyno yet. I've sent a small handful for 3rd Gear Pulls so he has a bit more to work with.

 

I timed using RomRaider, subtracting the time at 0 mph and 60mph as well as using the Btssm widget. I was at a very consistent 6 seconds before swapping in the new filter. Having Ed adjust to the much colder temps and the new air filter, it has moved me towards the 5.5 area. It's winter here so I'll go to the drag strip on a test night in the spring to get accurate times. Still thinking about a second ROM for race fuel.

 

Forgot to answer the last question. I was in manual mode and I let it auto shift at redline.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Timothy.B

[BeastCoast]

First impressions are very good. Ed left me a voice message with some info, supplied me with a template of things I need to get/do with links provided. Also set me up in a chat with other people whom hes done business with for networking purposes. Will continue to update throughout the process.

[RobbieGT]

Battle of the Tuners...

 

Matt has sent me a file to hopefully install SI-DRIVE in my USDM spec Legacy

 

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[BeastCoast]

Spoke with Ed on the phone for a few minutes this morning. Had me install "team viewer" so he could remotely access my laptop and setup everything he needed in RomRaider. Very efficient in my opinion. Now as instructed I will be logging the certain driving behaviors he has requested. So far, A+

[Humble Rumble]

Just wanted to drop by mention that I joined XRT last night. I will be logging and such once my Tactrix arrives and the weather warms up a bit (Chicago winters ugh). Not going to be anything new or ground-breaking, but I'm excited to contribute where I can.

[andrew_l_s]

Battle of the Tuners...

 

Matt has sent me a file to hopefully install SI-DRIVE in my USDM spec Legacy

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

How does this work:confused:

 

I'm intrigued, please elaborate if you can

[PDREALTOR]

I was intrigued too. I read about it... and... I don't think it will work.

[BeastCoast]

How does this work:confused:

 

I'm intrigued, please elaborate if you can

 

Update: It doesn't. I flashed it into Robbie's ECU yesterday and there was no difference and no SI Drive.

[XT-sub]

How does this work:confused:

 

I'm intrigued, please elaborate if you can

 

Unless you have some way of manually selecting the different modes I can’t see how it will work. On my Australian spec 2016 Liberty 3.6R I have two buttons on my steering wheel that selects either ‘I’ (intelligent), ‘S’ (sports) or ‘S#’ (sports sharp) modes. The two buttons are shown in my Avatar & fit in the same position as the phone buttons but on the opposite side of the wheel (see the blank spot in the photo Grnlantern1 posted): http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=242145&d=1481673087

 

Very briefly, the main difference is throttle response & revs but ‘S#’ does a bit more than that. The 2.5i models only come with ‘I’ & ‘S’ modes whereas the 3.6R gets ‘I’, ‘S’ & ‘S#’.

 

Without ‘S#’ I can’t see much advantage having it on the 2.5i models except to make throttle tip-in less sensitive when in slow bumper to bumper traffic – I think most people would just use ‘S’ mode.

 

Perhaps TH can supply wiring diagrams for the switches - I don’t have an Australian spec Liberty/Outback service manual.

 

I’m surprised that the USDM Legacys don’t come standard with this, especially the 3.6R, the WRX & Foz XT do (3 modes).

[XT-sub]

But I never got around checking the 2008 H6 3.0 for the actual pings on the ecu. I can review that now...but I never saw a usage for SI-drive in NA to be honest, except for wife/children driving the car.

 

Yes, there is more to it than a couple of switches. Obviously the indication on the dash to show which mode the car is in is crucial (S# can’t be enabled until the engine reaches a certain temperature & reverts to the mode prior to S# being selected when the engine is switched off). Does the wiring for SI-Drive involve the TCU or is it only I/O to/from the ECU?

 

Depending on what wiring has been fitted standard in the USDM cars it could be a reasonably simple or a fairly difficult job.

 

On the 3.6R, S# can be good in winding mountain areas or to get the revs up quickly closer to maximum torque, but apart from that I normally use S mode. But the 3.6R doesn’t get the 8 stepped gear ratios in S# that our previous Foz SJ XT had (only gets 6).

[surmiser]

Very briefly, the main difference is throttle response & revs but ‘S#’ does a bit more than that. The 2.5i models only come with ‘I’ & ‘S’ modes whereas the 3.6R gets ‘I’, ‘S’ & ‘S#’.

 

Without ‘S#’ I can’t see much advantage having it on the 2.5i models except to make throttle tip-in less sensitive when in slow bumper to bumper traffic – I think most people would just use ‘S’ mode.

 

Actually, Matt/TH discovered that my 2.5 not only had S# Mode in my stock tune, but that my S Mode button was already toggling between S and S#, just like on the 3.6 (makes sense since that allows Subaru to more easily reuse ECU code). But both maps were identical in my stock tune so toggling them was pointless.

 

So Matt remapped my S# Mode. This means my 2.5 now has 3 SI Drive modes: I, S and S#. There's no icon to tell me when I'm in S#, and my car defaults to S whenever I kill the ignition (just like in all Subaru models with S#).

 

I Mode was useless in my stock tune. So Matt made it like my original S Mode, but with all the benefits of I Mode such as lower cruising rpms. He then made my S Mode like an S# Mode, and my S# is strictly for crazy moments because it's not just touchy, it holds gears and revs when braking into turns, etc. So I actually find myself in I Mode most of the time now. Never thought I'd see the day.

 

My car was the first time Matt discovered the S# code in a tune that wasn't supposed to have it, so I think that's what got him started on seeing if he could activate the mode in other cars. But I think you'd really need some sort of hardware to toggle the modes.

 

And before all you USDM 2.5 folks go bugging Matt for S#, bear in mind that my car's made in Japan, doesn't have Eyesight, and has an ECU that Matt hadn't seen since he last tuned a Euro-spec Subaru. So it might be an unusual case. I hope not, for everyone's sakes, but best to moderate your expectations.

 

but I never saw a usage for SI-drive in NA to be honest, except for wife/children driving the car.

 

 

That's what I used to think too. And with stock tunes, maybe. But having three very usable but completely different modes has been unexpectedly useful. It's much easier to chauffeur passengers around smoothly in I Mode. While S# solves many of my complaints about launching the CVT from traffic lights.

Edited December 23, 2016 by surmiser