CovertRussian's 05 LGT Build Thread

[StkmltS]

I'm ashamed to say this, but gave the car it's first bath this year. It's been raining so much that it's been impossible to find a couple rain free days.

 

Also got some new license plates

 

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Pics/General/20160822_LGTWash.jpg~original

 

p0zeR

[covertrussian]

Since I bought the roomier & more carseat friendly Outback the LGT took the back seat for long trips, what didn't help is the highway gas mileage has been pretty crappy (~28mpg) since the Big 16G install.

 

Today, I had to go NOVA area, I usually fillup at a Shell once I get to the location, this way I can make changes to the tune for the return trip. I usually get better gas mileage going there since it's all downhill and has less traffic. Today going there I got 28.4mpg, this jived with what I've been getting on other trips.

 

On the way back, it finally hit me, bigger turbo = less heat & more oxygen = less timing needed, basically complete combustion happens faster thus less timing advance is needed. With that in mind, I removed 5* of timing from 2,800-3,200RPM ranges:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/ECU/Timing/16G/16G%2040IGN2.8-3.2k.png~original

 

 

I hit a bit of traffic coming back and even though the road back is all uphill the car still got 30.98mpg. This is the best MPG this car has gotten coming back from this city, or even going to this city (previous best was 30.0mpg). This is also the highest MPG that I've gotten since the 16G swap. I'll be doing some more highway testing hopefully soon to see if more consistent circumstances bring similar mpg.

 

I just took my timing map and removed 5* across the whole map, will do some Virtual Dyno's to see if I lose, gain or maintain power in a WOT run.

 

TL;DR: As you do airflow efficiency mods, you need to use less timing.

 

 

More Controlled Test Update: running 40* highway timing map did help me regain about 3mpg (got 29.9mpg today, previous was 27.1) in a more controlled test (though wind was little high today). I was hopping in getting 31+, a man can dream right? , I'm betting 10mph wind is to blame.

 

EDIT: Here is the post about testing -5* to see if it would increase power.

Edited November 3, 2016 by covertrussian

[Max Capacity]

You better be careful or I'll have to start sending more members to you for open source tuning help.

[Merc6]

You better be careful or I'll have to start sending more members to you for open source tuning help.

 

Yeah I would almost drive back to VA for a good tune. I'd have to duck into the 1st shop I see and get the safety stickers. If I'm lucky it wont be the fail 15 day grace ones. DPS was my last tune and it did me well on a already dying car. That TDC tune the car came with was a nightmare.

[Flinkly]

You better be careful or I'll have to start sending more members to you for open source tuning help.

Send me first!

[covertrussian]

Tunes for everyone!

 

 

But in all seriousness, once I do this other highway trip, if MPG is still way up I'll update the Tuning for Fuel Economy thread, which should give you ideas on what to modify.

 

Problem is, fuel economy tuning much trickier then power tuning, you have to find what works for your car based on your mods. But there are general ideas that apply to all gas internal combustion engines.

 

If any of you are willing go through through the tedious & consistent driving methods I can help you with improving your tunes. You just need to go to the same place, travel the same speed, similar weather & traffic patterns and you have to do it a few times. Each city I go to I log the information for that trip, that way I can refer to it later and determine trends. Once you have trends you can start modifying things, one by one....

Edited August 25, 2016 by covertrussian

[Max Capacity]

Send me first!

 

Ok. Done.

 

The reason I said this is because it seems people think open source tuning is easier then it is. Tuners have to spend time walking the customer through the process of what needs to be done. And AP has more tables the Tuners can use to give you a better MAP.

 

I'm no expert, just what I've noticed is happening.

[covertrussian]

Ok. Done.

 

The reason I said this is because it seems people think open source tuning is easier then it is. Tuners have to spend time walking the customer through the process of what needs to be done. And AP has more tables the Tuners can use to give you a better MAP.

 

I'm no expert, just what I've noticed is happening.

 

The real difference is AP developers find definition tables for living, Open Source (OS) guys do it for free to better the community with less resources and time. This doesn't even touch modifying the actual tunes, this just table definitions.

 

For older cars, aka like my 2005 LGT, the difference between OS and AP is really just the flashing device. Most tables that OS has AP has too, and it's not because OS guys steal AP tables, sometimes Cobb only adds tables after OS guys tell them.

 

For newer cars (2010+) AP will have better defined tables, that's because Merchgod went to work for Cobb and he was the biggest contributor to new definitions, but there are still plenty of good folks on RomRaider that slave away at giving us new definitions for newer cars. Thanks to RR guys my 2012 2.5i Outback has a very well defined tune, while finding definitions for pre 2010 2.5i outbacks is damn near impossible.

[rhino6303]

The real difference is AP developers find definition tables for living, Open Source (OS) guys do it for free to better the community with less resources and time. This doesn't even touch modifying the actual tunes, this just table definitions. [emoji38]

 

For older cars, aka like my 2005 LGT, the difference between OS and AP is really just the flashing device. Most tables that OS has AP has too, and it's not because OS guys steal AP tables, sometimes Cobb only adds tables after OS guys tell them.

 

For newer cars (2010+) AP will have better defined tables, that's because Merchgod went to work for Cobb and he was the biggest contributor to new definitions, but there are still plenty of good folks on RomRaider that slave away at giving us new definitions for newer cars. Thanks to RR guys my 2012 2.5i Outback has a very well defined tune, while finding definitions for pre 2010 2.5i outbacks is damn near impossible.

Well put. My 05 has more tables with OS than the AP. But I've put in significant amount of time adding them.

 

For the average user and from a tuner's perspective, the AP is best though.

[covertrussian]

Well put. My 05 has more tables with OS than the AP. But I've put in significant amount of time adding them.

 

For the average user and from a tuner's perspective, the AP is best though.

 

What kind of tables did you add?

 

Also check out the ECU Flash's definition (one that comes with software instead of the RR version) it has a ton of newer experimental tables (Like D learning stuff)

[rhino6303]

What kind of tables did you add?

 

Also check out the ECU Flash's definition (one that comes with software instead of the RR version) it has a ton of newer experimental tables (Like D learning stuff)

I just added and tweaked all of the experimental tables before they were added to ecuflash and the github repository. I just had to type out the addresses and definitions manually.

Edited August 25, 2016 by rhino6303

[covertrussian]

Ah yeah makes sense

[covertrussian]

With the MPG success from removing 5* of timing, I wanted to test to see if the 16G wanted less timing at WOT too.

 

I took my tuned VF46 map (base map) and then either retarded 5* of timing or advanced 3* of timing. Here are the total timing graphs:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/ECU/Timing/16G/16g%20TimingTuning.png~original

 

Now onto how that translates into power:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/ECU/Timing/16G/16GTimingTuningDynos.png~original

 

As you can see retarding 5* cost me a lot of power, impressive how big of a difference it makes eh? This told me that I'm not past MBT (Minimum Best Timing), but still on the climbing side.

 

Next I advanced timing by 3*, this once against cost me some peak power, because the 3* put me over the MBT hill. But adding the 3* of timing really helped the under the curve power.

 

 

What this simple exercise reminded me and taught me is:

• Reevaluate your tunes every time you do airflow mods! It's as simple trying to run more or less timing across board and logging
  
• Remember less is more when it comes to timing, as you come closer to MBT you will stop gaining power and start knocking.
  
• I'm really close to MBT on my VF46 timing past 5600 rpm, and might benefit form 1-2* retard.
  
• I need to increase my timing by 3* between 2500-5500rpm and should be able to gain 10whp/10wtq in that range.
  
• I spent two days staring at graphs and couldn't make sense of them, while writing this post I figured out the areas of my tune that could be optimized. This my friends, is why I enjoy making these posts, sharing information is beneficial to everyone, myself included.
  

 

UPDATE: I applied those observations to my tune. I did these logs on a slightly different road then earlier, hence lower base power, but it was done around same time for base run (I do 2-3 logs on different roads at the same time to make sure gremlins or clutch slippage doesn't ruin them).

 

Total Ignition timing is graphed instead of AFR

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=240249&stc=1&d=1478279803

 

Anyway, adding 3* mid range and reducing 2* from high range helped me get another 8HP, you can tell by the power curve that it's not a fluke.

Edited November 4, 2016 by covertrussian

[rebourne]

very cool. why still at 13psi though?

[Max Capacity]

Thanks for the lesson. I like the increase in mid-range Torque on the *3 advance.

[covertrussian]

very cool. why still at 13psi though?

 

Short answer is, that's what my mechanical wastegate is set to on this turbo (I really want to fit the stock 6psi gate though) and my clutch is slipping.

 

Long answer is, along with the two short answer parts, I'm taking different way of tuning these cars. Subaru guys generally love to just crank up the boost to increase power, and let's be honest it is much easier to increase boost then fine tuning a timing map.

 

There are three ways of really making power, you have airflow mods, running more timing, or by running more boost (I'm skipping rotational mass, since power gains are minimal). I believe in a mixture of the three, I first try to max out my airflow and let the engine breathe more freely, then set moderate boost levels, finally fine tune the timing.

 

The problem with just cranking boost up is, you need much bigger injectors and fuel pump, bigger intercooler to help reduce the heat that running so much boost brings, it also stresses engines a lot.

 

Thanks for the lesson. I like the increase in mid-range Torque on the *3 advance.

 

You can definitely feel it too, but now my clutch is slipping again and I'm logging 500-800WHP virtual dyno runs (since it's based on RPM increase over time).

[StkmltS]

Short answer is, that's what my mechanical wastegate is set to on this turbo (I really want to fit the stock 6psi gate though) and my clutch is slipping.

 

Long answer is, along with the two short answer parts, I'm taking different way of tuning these cars. Subaru guys generally love to just crank up the boost to increase power, and let's be honest it is much easier to increase boost then fine tuning a timing map.

 

There are three ways of really making power, you have airflow mods, running more timing, or by running more boost (I'm skipping rotational mass, since power gains are minimal). I believe in a mixture of the three, I first try to max out my airflow and let the engine breathe more freely, then set moderate boost levels, finally fine tune the timing.

 

The problem with just cranking boost up is, you need much bigger injectors and fuel pump, bigger intercooler to help reduce the heat that running so much boost brings, it also stresses engines a lot.

 

 

 

You can definitely feel it too, but now my clutch is slipping again and I'm logging 500-800WHP virtual dyno runs (since it's based on RPM increase over time).

 

There's a lot of good stuff in this thread.

 

:munch:

[gkinslow]

[rebourne]

Follow up to the follow up: why's the clutch slipping? age? mileage? power level?

 

and when it does slip on power any tricks to help it recover?

[covertrussian]

There's a lot of good stuff in this thread.

 

:munch:

 

 

Thanks guys

 

Follow up to the follow up: why's the clutch slipping? age? mileage? power level?

 

and when it does slip on power any tricks to help it recover?

 

Number one reason would be mileage, car has 130k miles on the clock and I'm assuming it's an original clutch still. Power would be the other one, I'm making about 40wtq over stock. (torque is what makes your clutch slip, and not really horse power)

 

Clutch started slipping in 2015 actually, but only in the cold, more power + colder material = less grip (think cold brakes). Installing the 16G actually got rid of the clutch slip, because 16G is about 200-300rpm slower spooling then the VF46 was.

 

 

 

-------

Gas mileage update, running 40* highway timing map did help me regain about3mpg (got 29.9mpg today, previous was 27.1) in a more controlled test (though wind was little high today). I was hopping in getting 31+, a man can dream right? , I'm betting 10mph wind is to blame.

[covertrussian]

After spending about 5 hours pain with Outback's LCA bushing replacement, figured I would do something easy on the Legacy.

 

Pulled the intercooler to install the heatshield and replace the intercooler.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Turbo/Evo%20III%2016g/20160903_190654.jpg~original

 

It's not pretty but fit perfectly, bent the bracket a little up to avoid contact with wastegate arm.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Turbo/Evo%20III%2016g/20160903_191055.jpg~original

 

When I was first installed the turbo it was a pretty tight fit, I didn't want to crack the newer intercooler. It's been 9 months and my original intercooler is still doing fine, so figured it's safe to install the newer one.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Turbo/Evo%20III%2016g/20160903_191726.jpg~original

[covertrussian]

My passenger heatshield has been rattling, everytime I would slam the door I would hear it rattle. Lately learning views have been showing knock in low load and rpm range. I figured it's due to the heatshield too.

 

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/Exhaust/Heat%20Shields/20160910_145102.jpg~original

 

Was a little fight but finally got it out, had to cut out the top portion of it.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/Exhaust/Heat%20Shields/20160910_151231.jpg~original

 

I probably will need to do the same with the other heatshields eventually.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/Exhaust/Heat%20Shields/20160910_151239.jpg~original

 

 

While the belly pan was off, figured I would flush out the coolant too. I used Preston coolant a few years ago when I did the timing belt and water pump. Removed a few radiator hoses and the water pump hose right behind the T-stat and let it all drain, then filled with distilled water till it came out clear. I then let it idle till it was warm enough for t-stat to open, drained it all again and filled new coolant (Peak Global Lifetime) and more distilled water.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/Cooling/20160910_163552.jpg~original

 

Even after that rain dance I think I still noticed some green coolant today, Peak Global is orangish, damn!

 

While I was under the car I also noticed the driver side axle boot gave out, guess this is what I get for not being under this car for a while .

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Drivetrain/Axles/20160911_174621.jpg~original

 

Luckily the guy I bought the legacy wagon from threw in some axles, looks like it's an MT one too! Replaced the axle seal while I was at it too.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Drivetrain/Axles/20160911_175340.jpg~original

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Drivetrain/Axles/20160911_181518.jpg~original

Edited April 25, 2017 by covertrussian

[rebourne]

Quite a productive day!

[covertrussian]

More like a productive weekend, I had to work on my other car and my Dad's car so had to split up the legacy work into two days .

 

The turd is still knocking, which is really odd.... Here is a learning view form yesterday post heatshield removal.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=237433&stc=1&d=1473688164

 

This morning I reset the ECU to make sure that too much retard wasn't causing more knocking too, 4miles later already had some knock counts picked up:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=237434&stc=1&d=1473688164

 

Timing map in those ranges is identical to what it was couple weeks ago where it would barely knock at all. Either I have something else that's loose or got a case of bad gas from Shell (which would be a first).

[rhino6303]

Is your fuel trim in cell A always that high? You could have a vacuum leak. That could also explain the knock.