CovertRussian's 05 LGT Build Thread

[covertrussian]

Measured the stock catted up pipe and turbo last night. The stock catted up pipe is worse then I initially thought, previously I measured with a dead battery on my digital caliper so accuracy was a guess, well I was 2mm off on that guess.

 

I updated the OEM header post with new pictures/measurements.

[Gigs]

Did you consider going to the oem GD Twinscroll headers as well ?

[covertrussian]

I did, most are over $1k. There was a guy on these forums that had one for $300, but that was form 2014.

 

I would have to either built a custom up pipe or reweld the header. Not worth it basically, it still would be plagued with oem design compromises and flow issues too.

[Flinkly]

I did, most are over $1k. There was a guy on these forums that had one for $300, but that was form 2014.

 

I would have to either built a custom up pipe or reweld the header. Not worth it basically, it still would be plagued with oem design compromises and flow issues too.

What! Mine were/are listed for $500! And they're fantastic headers for anyone but giant turbos, IMO.

 

I agree on the effort/cost of a custom uppipe. Thought about that too, to test vf52 vs. vf37 back to back with as little changed as possible.

 

...

[Underdog]

Agreed - my V8 JDM STI TS header/UP was in the $500 range, and they were nearly mint. If I were doing it again and stuck with twinscroll I would likely go with Tomei, simply since they are readily available and good quality. Tomei themselves admit that there is very little to be gained over the OEM TS header.

[Gigs]

You can source them from japan for cheaper usually , My 207 just came with them so I ran them !

 

After having a VF42 I don't know if I could go to a VF37. Another interesting thing is that most of the aftermarket " twinscroll " turbos are not actually twinscroll but twin entry turbos.

[Flinkly]

yeah, i try to restrain myself on pushing twinscroll on people. depending on the mods already purchased, it can be an expensive switch, and it is limiting for parts. took me a while to get a DP for my setup, since Moore won't make them unless you have YOUR car in THEIR shop for fabrication. and very few other options.

 

For me, the OEM parts come with all the things i want, and don't include most of the things i hate. Like the headers: ELH without the large/giant ID of aftermarket parts. i'm not looking for a max HP number, or a large one. would rather have low end Tq. And for the price, can't be beat. except if you already purchased similar single scroll parts/mods at new prices.

 

And i love the option of being able to run my stock TMIC with my turbo (or STI TMIC, or aftermarket, etc.). yay, options!

 

and yeah, i still have a set of OEM JDM headers/up/dp for sale.

[Gigs]

yeah, i try to restrain myself on pushing twinscroll on people. depending on the mods already purchased, it can be an expensive switch, and it is limiting for parts. took me a while to get a DP for my setup, since Moore won't make them unless you have YOUR car in THEIR shop for fabrication. and very few other options.

 

For me, the OEM parts come with all the things i want, and don't include most of the things i hate. Like the headers: ELH without the large/giant ID of aftermarket parts. i'm not looking for a max HP number, or a large one. would rather have low end Tq. And for the price, can't be beat. except if you already purchased similar single scroll parts/mods at new prices.

 

And i love the option of being able to run my stock TMIC with my turbo (or STI TMIC, or aftermarket, etc.). yay, options!

 

and yeah, i still have a set of OEM JDM headers/up/dp for sale.

 

I would assume you can source a JDM LGT downpipe or have one made locally for cheaper if you know good fabricators.

[covertrussian]

I actually seriously considered just going JDM manifold and either modifying the header for 2 bolt or building a custom up pipe. When I looked at the cost everything on ebay was over $1k but did come with a turbo.

 

Even at $500 it's hard to justify though, especially since I scored my Tomei's for $600 shipped on Black Friday, and that's with an up pipe.

 

The reason I started shopping around for headers is I wanted to replace my up pipe with a thicker one. But after seeing that GS and Perrin ones were $220ish, it was cheaper just to buy the header with an up pipe already. Technically speaking the header cost me $380 and up pipe was $220 (since it's similar quality to GS/Perrin).

[covertrussian]

yeah, i try to restrain myself on pushing twinscroll on people. depending on the mods already purchased, it can be an expensive switch, and it is limiting for parts. took me a while to get a DP for my setup, since Moore won't make them unless you have YOUR car in THEIR shop for fabrication. and very few other options.

 

I love TS on paper (Here is an awesome twin vs single scroll article), but in reality I'm not sure it's worth the extra $$$. Plus faster spool will kill my gas mileage, which is why I went with 16G with 8cm to begin with .

 

Does TS rotate the turbo different that you can't used regular down pipes?

 

Agreed - my V8 JDM STI TS header/UP was in the $500 range, and they were nearly mint. If I were doing it again and stuck with twinscroll I would likely go with Tomei, simply since they are readily available and good quality. Tomei themselves admit that there is very little to be gained over the OEM TS header.

 

I wonder if that's because tomei one is way oversized in the Tertiary/uppipe area?

 

I would love to get my hands on JDM header to see how well it's built, but it's just not worth the trouble anymore.

Edited December 12, 2016 by covertrussian

[Underdog]

The $500 I mentioned included the header and UP. I think i have some pics of it around here somewhere.

 

The stock TS hardware is stock location but has a different turbine output flange shape and bolt pattern. The AVO DP for our car could swap bellmouths to fit various turbos - I used mine for VF40, then woth a TD04HLA-19T TS, , and then woth a VF37, before having Moore Performance build me a custom divorced pipe.

 

IIRC Tomei made two TS versions. One with near stock sized piping for moderate turbo upgrades, and a larger version for larger turbos.

[Flinkly]

I love TS on paper (Here is an awesome twin vs single scroll article), but in reality I'm not sure it's worth the extra $$$. Plus faster spool will kill my gas mileage, which is why I went with 16G with 8cm to begin with .

 

Does TS rotate the turbo different that you can't used regular down pipes?

 

 

 

I wonder if that's because tomei one is way oversized in the Tertiary/uppipe area?

 

I would love to get my hands on JDM header to see how well it's built, but it's just not worth the trouble anymore.

 

I can take all the measurements you'd like of either of my JDM STI headers/up turbo and down.

 

it is the STI one. the LGT stuff is smaller diameter, and the turbo is quite different/smaller. it even has it's own unique TMIC. Tomei has alot of the information already on their sales page for their JDM STI header.

 

Oh, and the turbo is in the same spot, but it does need a unique stay bracket since there are two inlets (and thus a very different mount area/bolt pattern), and the turbo outlet has a different mount pattern as well (i've got a pic i can upload - pic is of USDM gasket over JDM STI DP - Note the stock bellmouth!).

 

EDIT: too slow. wife called, kept me from posting faster...

 

http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z471/flinkly/Subaru/TwinScroll/DSCN1919.jpg

Edited December 12, 2016 by Flinkly

[Gigs]

The twinscroll flange is completely different but you can find elbows and such to adapt it to any car.

[covertrussian]

What are the JDM headers made out of? Looks like steel but I think I saw something that made it sound like it might be stainless?

[Underdog]

The flanges are stainless. Not 100% about the piping but given the lack of corrosion on my set I wouldn't be surprised if they were a mild stainless as well.

[covertrussian]

Looking at Tomei's picture of the "STD" aka stock header it definitely looks like it's stainless. Tomei might be a clone of that header but man they did a MUCH better job at the bends and the merge collector.

 

http://www.tomeiusa.com/_2003web-catalogue/000_expreme/image_expreme/gr_exmani_hikaku.jpg

[Flinkly]

honestly, i'm a little surprised that you threw in the towel on TS when you're so bent on a similar path as me, power with efficiency. it would have cost more since you already had an aftermarket SS turbo, but the benefits...

 

great article by the way. significant increase in acceleration on the road, and in area under the curve in both power and torque. and of course quicker spool, small gain at max hp/tq, and efficiency!

 

also, while that tomei picture doesn't show it, the OEM headers have both insulation AND full metal heatshields to assist in retaining all the power/heat pushed into the exhaust, as well as quicker header warmup. the V9 uppipe even has an integrated cover for the flange between the header and up, to retain every last bit of heat/power. and if it's good enough for the peeps at STI, it's good enough for my girl.

[covertrussian]

I like TS in concept but I haven't seen any decent real world results and the cost just seemed way too high. Now that article was the first time I found something that actually gave me tangible data, but they did have some testing gotchas still though (It's really hard to test TS vs SS with not many variables).

 

As usual, my main goal is fuel economy, I had piss poor economy with my FXT and TD03. Though I can't say that Big16G has been all that much better then VF46, the power gains and top end made it worth the upgrade.

 

The problem with 304 stainless (maybe 406 too) is that it doesn't like to be overheated, it starts developing stress cracks, etc. Thats why header wraps are horrible for 304, heat shields are not as bad but probably not that good for longevity either. So if factory header is 304, with heat shields, 1.5mm thin and can last 100k I'm impressed.

 

But maybe Subaru realized that cars in japan get thrown away at 60k miles and it's pointless to build something that lasts 100k miles?

[Flinkly]

actually, as Gigs pointed out (and i never noticed), several companies make turbine housings that are twin entry, but single scroll. if someone could get their hands on one that could mate up to an IHI CHRA, i could test single and twin back-to-back with changes only with the turbine/scrolls.

 

Kinugawa's replacement TWIN ENTRY turbo for VF36/37 equipped cars is one of these faux TS turbo's. I believe their turbine castings are for VF36 CHRAs though, which are different than VF37 CHRAs (ball bearing vs. journal, etc.). At least they told me that they're twinscroll turbine housing would only mate to a VF36 without machine work (back when i was having a hard time sourcing an un-modded TS turbine housing).

 

as for tubular manifolds, our crosspipes are tubular 304 as well, with at least 4x weld joints (flange-flex-flex-flange), as well as our uppipes (same weld joints here for 07+, i suspect more for earlier MY). granted, they just have heatshields on USDM cars, no real insulation (a little in one of the cast manifold shield).

Edited December 13, 2016 by Flinkly

[Gigs]

It drives me mad too because I would love to have a stock locaton twin scroll EFR but it looks like I will have to settle for a custom uppipe in the future.

[covertrussian]

That's really sad, I would be pretty pissed to find out I just bought a glorified, and probably worse flowing, merge collector.

[rebourne]

After reading that TS article, I watched this video about the BW EFR turbos that was also on Dsport. Even though it was about the Ecotech motors, at the end they talk about the development of the EFR turbos to be the most bad ass turbo and their purpose. So much want.

 

[Gigs]

The EFR turbos are also used in Indycar and they are an oem supplier for a ton of companies.

[covertrussian]

It's been a long time coming, but finally got around to replacing the clutch. I was able to cheat a bit for half of 2016 with the slower spooling turbo. Last couple weeks it would slip as I was passing cars at 70mph.

 

Lifted the rear to drain the trans fluid

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260242&stc=1&d=1515081269

 

Thanks to coldsoda and Max Capacity's advise I was able to pull the axles out without removing them or removing the wheels even. I did need to unbolt the control arms, FSM says to undo the ball joint mount from knuckle, but knowing how stubborn my car can be, I just removed the rear and front mounting bolts.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260243&stc=1&d=1515081269

 

Driveshaft and downpipe unbolted

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260244&stc=1&d=1515081269

 

Thanks again to coldsoda and Max Capacity for the engine stand advice, it worked well enough.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260262&stc=1&d=1515081376

 

Used the engine hoist and jack to drop the trans, the belmouth flange on the top half of the downpipe was wider then the turbo, so had to quickly remove while trans was on the chain (not a fun time, just remove the downpipe right of way).

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260245&stc=1&d=1515081376

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260246&stc=1&d=1515081376

 

In the belly of the beast now, you can see where my previous axle sprayed grease everywhere

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260263&stc=1&d=1515081435

 

Holy hotspot batman!

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260247&stc=1&d=1515081435

 

 

Just like internal hex screws, I hate torx screws for high torque applications. Don't have the perfect angle, apply a perfect amount of torque, or simply look at it wrong and it strips. Angle grinder to the rescue, to my luck, once I cut enough of the head off it finally came loose. I was worried I would have to unscrew it with vice grips (not fun).

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260249&stc=1&d=1515081435

 

Cleaned up the back of the engine and replaced the rear main seal

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260264&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

SMF vs DMF Comparison

Now onto the fun part, comparing the Single Mass Flywheel (SMF) vs the Dual Mass Flywheel (DMF). I went with an Exedy Stage 1 kit (15804), which should be good for 300wtq and a WRX SMF flywheel.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260259&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

DMF weights 27.4lbs, with the disc and pressure plate came in at 41.8lbs

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260261&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

SMF weights 23lbs with the total weight of 36.8lbs. According to this the bigger pressure plate is .6lbs lighter too, but I wouldn't trust my cheap bathroom scale that much.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260260&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

DMF flywheel is thicker, while SMF is thinner. Since both are compatible with the same transmissions, they had to make the DMF pressure plate skinnier.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260250&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

What I found interesting is, DMF discs are actually bigger at 242mm while SMF ones are 231mm. At first I thought Subaru increased the size of the disc to make for the extra movement that DMF's have, but now I think it's because the pressure place is thinner thus has less clamping force. Another interesting thing is, Subaru used a sprung disc with a dual mass flywheel, usually DMF setups use unsprung discs since the flywheel takes care of the pulse equalization, using a sprung disk just adds redundancy and cost.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260251&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

Here is the SMF disc ontop of the DMF flywheel, you can see how much smaller it is.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260253&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

SMF bolts on the left, DMF bolts on the right. To my surprise they are the same length, only difference external head vs internal head.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260255&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

SMF installed, tightened them as per subaru steps (pretty important to make sure it doesn't tighten off balance).

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260256&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

New clutch installed and aligned

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260257&stc=1&d=1515081485

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260258&stc=1&d=1515081485

 

Hit the picture limit, continued in next post.

Edited January 4, 2018 by covertrussian

[covertrussian]

Continuation of this post.

 

Moving onto the transmission, replaced all of the external seals (axle seal replacement not pictured).

 

Output shaft to differential seal

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260266&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Shift shaft seal: This one was pretty tough to remove and replace. First have to remove the connection joint

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260267&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

To minimize the shift shaft damage, I pushed it in all the way before digging out the old bushing and punching the new one in.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260268&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

 

Typical 130k miles of clutch dust.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260265&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Removed the throw out bearing fork, cleaned it up and replaced the spring that clips onto the pivot ball. Regreased it all with some moly ARP grease before reinstalling.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260270&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Cleaned up the bell housing with some break cleaner

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260269&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Throwout bearing installed along with the fork, notice the wear marks, probably from the failed throw out bearing. Greased the input shaft, the clutch fork ball and throwout bearing contact points.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260271&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Another interesting thing that I noticed is the wear marks on the bell housing, which I presume is from the pressure plate contacting it.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260272&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Time to put it back together

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260273&stc=1&d=1515081778

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260274&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

It was a pita getting the transmission aligned with the engine, even with my high tech engine support it still tilted forward a little. Took a friend of mine and I about an hour get it aligned and together. This time the turbo was causing clearing issues, I should have ground away at the transmission while it was out...

 

Transmission is back in place

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260275&stc=1&d=1515081778

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=260276&stc=1&d=1515081778

 

Driving impressions

The clutch is very springy, it's also kind of tricky to drive, I wanna say more so then then the Exedy stage 1's that I used on my Nissan's. This could be due to the clutch damper still being in place. Won't really know how good this setup really is until it's fully broken in though.

 

One thing that this setup made worse is the ability to be in 4th gear and go 30mph or less, it lugs the engine a lot more then the previous setup did. Best I can come up with is, perhaps the stored inertia in the heavier flywheel would maintain the speed better or the dual mass flywheel just sucked up those vibrations and noises more.

Edited January 4, 2018 by covertrussian