Jump to content
LegacyGT.com

The OFFICIAL 2014 Legacy Thread

LegGTLT

By LegGTLT
in Subaru News & Rumors

When should the OFFICIAL 2015 Legacy Thread Start?  

40 members have voted

  1. 1. When should the OFFICIAL 2015 Legacy Thread Start?

    • Today, whatever day it is.
      11
    • September 1st, 2013
      4
    • December 1st, 2013
      5
    • March 1st, 2014
      6
    • NEVAR! To avoid the disappointment...
      14

Recommended Posts

DrD123 Veteran

DrD123

Posted
Posted

So how do we differentiate between a wagon and a hatchback? Is it just the angle of the tailgate or something?

 

How do we differentiate between a crossover and a wagon? Is it ground clearance? car vs. truck platform?

 

There are a lot of vehicles which look like a wagon to me, but maybe they sit a little higher or have a sloped rear gate... to me, if it has folding rear seats and a tailgate which opens up to let you put big things in there, and is built on a platform that's also used for a sedan, then it's a wagon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 321
  • Created
  • Last Reply
SBT Grand Master

SBT

Posted
Posted
Come on! this list is reaching. Take out trim levels, call a hatch a hatch, call a crossover a crossover. USDM traditional wagons are a dying breed. Most are gone, and the recently created offerings don't sell (CTS and TSX). Manufacturers are all about creating crossovers and hatches for the US Market instead of traditional wagons as Americans don't want them.

 

Whatever - it's Edmunds list not mine. The evidence is clear, Americans want wagons, they just don't want it to be called a wagon. Perhaps they should just call it an estate like the Brits.

- Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum -
Link to comment
Share on other sites
The B4 Grand Master

The B4

Posted
Posted
So how do we differentiate between a wagon and a hatchback? Is it just the angle of the tailgate or something?

 

How do we differentiate between a crossover and a wagon? Is it ground clearance? car vs. truck platform?

 

There are a lot of vehicles which look like a wagon to me, but maybe they sit a little higher or have a sloped rear gate... to me, if it has folding rear seats and a tailgate which opens up to let you put big things in there, and is built on a platform that's also used for a sedan, then it's a wagon.

 

Usually it's pretty easy. lack of a d pillar is an automatic hatch. lack of ground clearance and/or raised body removes it from crossover.

 

The wagon or hatch, wagon or crossover debate can boil down to an ugly fight. Your definition may work for you, but that it isn't correct.

 

 

Even with the hatch having a D pillar, it's easy to see the difference.

 

2003 Ford Focus Wagon:

http://www.automobileexchangeinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2003-Ford-Focus-SE-0042.jpg

 

2003 Ford Focus Hatch:

http://images.dealerrevs.com/gallery/photo.php?id=32183325

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrD123 Veteran

DrD123

Posted
Posted
Usually it's pretty easy. lack of a d pillar is an automatic hatch. lack of ground clearance and/or raised body removes it from crossover.

 

The wagon or hatch, wagon or crossover debate can boil down to an ugly fight. Your definition may work for you, but that it isn't correct.

 

 

Even with the hatch having a D pillar, it's easy to see the difference.

 

2003 Ford Focus Wagon:

2003 Ford Focus Hatch:

OK - so if it has a d-pillar, it's a wagon, unless, while it has a d-pillar, the manufacturer makes a longer version and calls that a wagon, then it's a hatchback? :spin:

 

I think Edmunds says on their site if the roofline continues uninterrupted past the rear doors, it's a wagon, but if the roofline slopes away abruptly after the rear doors, it's a hatchback. I think the term "crossover" is industry generated - when SUVs started falling out of favor as gas guzzlers, they invented another category, which was essentially SUVs based upon a car chassis, but with more ground clearance. In which case, most wagons could also be called crossovers, since they are based on a sedan chassis, but have increased ground clearance...

 

So what about the Outback? It looks like a wagon, but has increased ground clearance, so it could be considered a crossover, but Subaru wants to call it an SUV... (and it's official category is "light truck", I think...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
The B4 Grand Master

The B4

Posted
Posted

As I stated before, arguments over wagon and hatches can rage on forever, but anyone with a brain won't be confused when differentiating between what is an isn't when looking at individual vehicles.

 

SUV was industry generated as well as minivan. When new subsets of vehicles are created, they have to be named. Crossovers are subsets of SUVs. The outback is a crossover, it's a wagon, and its an SUV. Light Truck is an EPA designation. What it is not is a traditional wagon.

 

What doesn't sell in the US? Traditional wagons.

 

Wikipedia:

 

Both station wagons and hatchbacks typically feature a two-box design configuration, with one shared, flexible, interior volume for passengers and cargo[8][9]—and a rear door for cargo access.[10][11] Further distinctions are highly variable:

Pillars: Both configurations typically feature A, B & C pillars, station wagons more likely also feature a D pillar as well.

Cargo Volume: Station wagons prioritize passenger and cargo volume—with windows aside the cargo volume. Of the two body styles, a station wagon's roof (viewed in profile) more likely extends to the very rearmost of the vehicle, enclosing a full-height cargo volume[9]—a hatchback roof (especially a liftback roof) might more likely rake down steeply behind the C-Pillar, prioritizing style[7] over interior volume, with shorter rear overhang and with smaller windows (or no windows) aside the cargo volume.

Cargo floor contour: Favoring cargo capacity, a station wagon may prioritize a fold-flat floor, where a hatchback would more likely allow a cargo floor with pronounced contour (e.g. the new Mini or the sixth generation Ford Fiesta).

Seating: Station wagons have two or three rows of seats (e.g., the Ford Taurus wagons) while hatchbacks have one[8] (e.g. the MGB GT) or two rows of seats.

Rear suspension: A station wagon may include reconfigured rear suspension for additional load capacity[7] and to minimize intrusion into the cargo volume, (e.g., worldwide versions of the first generation Ford Focus).

Rear Door: Hatchbacks typically feature a top-hinged liftgate for cargo access, with variations from a single liftgate to a complex tailgate that can function either as a full tailgate or as a trunk lid (e.g., the 2008 Škoda Superb's TwinDoor). Station wagons also have numerous tailgate configurations. Typically, a hatchback's hatch or liftgate does not extend down to the bumper, as on wagons — with exceptions including the Skoda Superb.

Automotive journalist Dan Neil, in a 2002 New York Times report described verticality of the rear cargo door as the prime distinction between a hatchback and a station wagon: "Where you break the roofline, at what angle, defines the spirit of the vehicle," he said. "You could have a 90-degree break in the back and have a station wagon."[12]

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Three_body_styles_with_pillars_and_boxes.png/472px-Three_body_styles_with_pillars_and_boxes.png

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrD123 Veteran

DrD123

Posted
Posted

Even the definitions above (from Wikipedia... that's sort of like gospel, right? ;)) have a lot of subjectivity to them - notice how often they use terms like "may" or "might" or "typically" - the only "official" classifications are the legal ones (e.g., the EPA "light truck" rating) - the others are pretty much what the manufacturer or random folks choose to call them.

 

So if a crossover is a subset of SUVs, and the outback is a wagon, but is also an SUV, does that mean that a wagon is both a crossover and an SUV?

 

Comparing a Legacy Wagon in markets other than the US to the Outback, the only functional difference is ride height... so is that what makes the Outback non-traditional? Are there guidelines for the correct ground clearance to be considered "standard"?

 

The point is that the definitions are subjective - I have no doubt that you have a very clear opinion about what is/is not a wagon - but that doesn't mean "anyone with a brain" has the same opinions that you do, nor does it mean your opinion is any more "right" than theirs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
The B4 Grand Master

The B4

Posted
Posted
Definitions are subjective, and this is exactly the argument I was looking to avoid as anyone with common sense can see that traditional wagons that are not hatches and are not crossovers are not desired by the American public. This isn't a new concept or a hard one to grasp. It isn't that SOA hates the Legacy wagon. It's that America hates the Legacy wagon and its similar brethren.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
CrowNaza86 Experienced

CrowNaza86

Posted
Posted
Definitions are subjective, and this is exactly the argument I was looking to avoid as anyone with common sense can see that traditional wagons that are not hatches and are not crossovers are not desired by the American public. This isn't a new concept or a hard one to grasp. It isn't that SOA hates the Legacy wagon. It's that America hates the Legacy wagon and its similar brethren.

 

Americans don't know what they like.

:yeahthat:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
LegGTLT Grand Master

LegGTLT

Posted
  • Author
Posted
We can only pray that they kill the 5th Gen on time and release the 6th Gen. It's our only hope for something new to happen to this model...
Please PM joeleodee For All Site Questions. He is the acting Admin and can resolve anything related to LegacyGT.com
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrD123 Veteran

DrD123

Posted
Posted
Supposedly, however Japan got the 2.0 DIT and they weren't due for a refresh either.

They also still get the 2.5GT (only available with the 5eat, though - sort of the opposite of what we had!), but don't get the 3.6R (except in the Outback when combined with eyesight)...

 

Maybe they'll go with the 2.0DIT for three trim levels and the 2.5i for three trim levels and eliminate the 3.6 in the same way they did the 2.5 turbo... offering everything with a CVT, except the base 2.5i where you could still get a manual...

 

the 2.0DIT cars seem to command a bit of a premium though - $35k without eyesight, $36k with. (the base 2.5i goes for $23k there, for comparison) - no idea how either of those cars are optioned up in Japan, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ehsnils Grand Master

ehsnils

Posted
Posted

Over here you aren't going anywhere at all as a car brand unless you have a wagon. The Legacy Sedan is pretty rare while wagons are common.

 

A look on new Legacies for sale here 2 out of 39 are sedans, the rest are wagons.

453747.png
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use

  I accept