New BW EFR turbos coming soon through FR!!!!

[mwiener2]

I'm just hoping an EFR 7064 will beat this...

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/FMTDyno.jpg

[m sprank]

 

I don't know seemed ok to me.

 

Log has too many parameters and not the correct ones. Your boost is way too late. What is the load? G/S from the MAF?

[Rester5350]

With UP & DP + good tune VF40 should reach full spool under 3,000rpm, even on an AUTO, mine does - it was so fast to redline that the tranny could not shift in time and I ended up bouncing off the redline limiter - not fun. Had to increase the redline by 600rpm to solve this problem.

On a related topic - what are you plans to prepare your AUTO transmission for the kind of power the EFR 8374 will generate?

Do you at least have an upgraded Valve Body like HexMods or IPT? with the power you'll be making with the 8374 i think you want one if your tranny is to survive...

Ditto for tranny cooler you'll be dissipating at least twice the heat so its a good idea.

My VF52 spools at 3,700 on Cal91, ~3,400 on E85 and there is a WORLD of difference between how the car feel on these two fuels - believe me - you WANT fast spool, 4,000 is okay for highway driving but will feel lethargic in the city - there you want ~3,500.

 

I do have plans on up grading the trans and have been in contact with ClimberD.

 

 

 

I'm just hoping an EFR 7064 will beat this...

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/FMTDyno.jpg

 

Mweiner, is this your DD? If so do you have any input about the drive ability with a later spooling turbo?

 

Log has too many parameters and not the correct ones. Your boost is way too late. What is the load? G/S from the MAF?

 

M sprank, can you send me a list of parameters? I will pull some more logs and post them here.

 

 

Tomorrow, my block will be dropped off at Fast of West Chester for a going over and hopefully the beginning of the build process. I will start a build thread sometime in the near future.

[mwiener2]

For the power it makes, it's not considered a later spooling turbo. I have plenty of power once I hit 3000. I'd really like to get my setup into not an outback and see what it can do.

[KGB]

For the power it makes, it's not considered a later spooling turbo.

 

I have plenty of power once I hit 3000.

 

 

Agreed - similar spool to my AVO380 but more power - nice

 

But, can you please elaborate what you mean by plenty of power?

 

I got similar sloop charachteristics on my AVO380 and while the car is perfectly drivable in the City, it does not feel like it got "plenty" of power - it feels like a non-turbo 2.5L Outback.

[m sprank]

Log:

IAM

RPM

Throttle position

WGDC%

Knock sum

Manifold relative pressure

Engine load

MAF volts

MAF g/s

Ignition total timing

[Rester5350]

The weather is pretty nasty here today, so I'll see what I can do. Ultimately the most important thing to me is the power/ response on my EFR:lol:. So as long as I'm not hurting my current motor I am not going to worry about it ( too much). How ever I am interested in seeing what kind of info logging these parameters will yield.

[Rester5350]

I was able to do some pulls between rain storms. It felt like timing was being pulled around 2500-3200 rpm. Sorta looks that way too.

datalog15.csv

datalog14.csv

datalog13.csv

datalog12.csv

[mwiener2]

I got similar sloop charachteristics on my AVO380 and while the car is perfectly drivable in the City, it does not feel like it got "plenty" of power - it feels like a non-turbo 2.5L Outback.

 

The turbo reacts faster on the street than it does on the dyno, most do. So in practical driving, I can get over 200 ftlbs at 2500 rpms. It's more than enough for around town maneuvers. Once I'm over 40mph, I can always keep the revs in that sweet spot of 400+ ftlbs.

 

I'm expecting the EFR to do the same thing, but more. Be a very fast responding turbo in day to day driving conditions.

[m sprank]

Timing is WAY too low. You are dipping into single digints advanced timing on a stock motor/turbo combo. Time to reduce boost and increase timing. Your timing is not smooth either. Your tune could deff use some work.

 

MWeiner is hitting 200ftlbs by 2500rpm. This is almost all you need to know. The car is making huge power quickly and it is fast. He is also at elevation.

[Rester5350]

Yeah, I'll be sending some logs to my tuner. Thanks for taking a look Mike.

 

 

I am going to go nuts waiting for my turbo, but am looking forward to starting the build.

[ClimberDHexMods]

200wtq at 2500 is sweet. I have been driving my LS400 a lot. 4.0L V8. I do most of my acceleration between 1000-2000rpm. It is HEAVEN to drive around the city streets of Dallas. My next LGT build will be to try to mirror how wonderful it is to have torque down low. Race car powerbands are not hard to build, but strong low-end torque out of a 2.5L takes some work. Keep at it.

[m sprank]

e-85 is a huge help too. Lol.

[KGB]

Reid at SP estimates that we'll be able to shave off ~400rpm with their Quick Spool Valve.

 

This will bring the 6758 TS 0.92a/r from ~4000 to 3600 rpm on Cal 91.

And it is acceptable for me.

 

So Geoff, when will we be able to get our hands on the first articles of the 6758 or the newer 7163 TS

(which should spool up similarly to 6758, but flow more, right?)

 

Thanks!

[NSFW]

Any comments?

 

I'd love to see that kick of setup tried on a Subaru, it seems like a great idea.

 

There are stock-style twin-scroll 20G turbos from Kinugawa that seem like good candidates for this. You'd need to fab a 1-into-2 up-pipe with a valve on it, but if the setup doesn't work out you could just fall back to a TS header and up-pipe... still a pretty cool setup.

[510Finn]

If someone is getting a turbo and a process west at the same time, they should get both in STi fitment. That way they have a much larger selection of turbos. If the same turbo is available in both styles, the STi one is usually cheaper as well.

 

Still, need an STi style intake manifold for this to work. Was wondering is there any additional information or write up on doing this conversion? Is the STi manifold a direct bolt on to the Legacy with the TGVs? What about using the LGT throttle body? What else is needed? How about the throttle cable?

[mwiener2]

OK. I said that wrong. PW offers a TMIC with LGT/08+WRX outlet and STI style inlet. Its available.

 

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Process-West-PWSH001-Traditional-Turbo-Upgrade-Hose

[KGB]

As I am finalizing the choice between the EFR 6258 and the larger 6758 the matter of my OEM exhaust's restriction came up - since my OEM exhaust limits the top end somewhat, it may cause some issues with the larger 6758 and maybe pointing toward the smaller 6258.

 

Can I please ask members to comment on the extend that an OEM exhaust limits the top end (any anything else,) and which part of the OEM exhaust is the worst offender: the mid pipe, y pipe, or the mufflers?

 

Note that we are talking about 44-49lb/m turbos, and even that is at their upper theoretical limit. Not some crazy 60lb turbo for which, I agree, a larger exhaust system is unquestionably needed.

 

Note that my primary fuel is Cal 91 so, on that sh~t fuel, I will NEVER reach the upper flow limit of the 6258 and probably also the 6758.

Is this a correct statement?

 

I was told by several tuners that the OEM exhaust is not bad and is not a serious limitation until well past 400hp.

 

My guess is that the smaller 6258 is not limited by the stock exhaust on Cal 91, maybe 3-5% on E85. The larger 6758 may reach its flow limit on Cal91 (limited by backpressure - induced detonation,) above 6000rpm but that is NOT an issue for me as I am building a Daily Driver, not a racer, and my car is an Automatic - I do NOT spend much time, if any above 6000rpm. On E85, 6758 may loose ~5+ % off its top end above 6000rpm, but again, its not a big issue for me.

 

What do you all think, if I were to invest in upgrading elements of the OEM exhaust, which ones have the best ROI: y pipe / mid pipe / mufflers?

(It is very important to me to keep the sound/noise OEM-like - I do not want to attract any attention

 

Again, the reason for this debate is that I am planing to get ~330-350whp on Cal 91 and the larger 6758 seems to be more likely to reach these tuning goals (I am limited by 18-20psi of pressure on Cal91,) after accounting for the additional ~10% whp lost in my Automatic transmission...

 

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions!

[Nightmaresmk]

6758 is better fit for the 2.5l and the 6258 is better for the 2/0l motors. i want the 6758 for my outback. stock exhaust on these flow pretty well so that doesn't matter. especially with a full up and downpipe.

[m sprank]

Some of your assumptions and data are incorrect. First you can run 22psi on CAN91. Second what trans mods do you have, because ime it is not going to hold without being modified. Third, to make 330-350whp on CAN91 (using a Mustang to measure) you will need the 6758 (and you still might not make it). 4th, the CBE will be a limiting factor at those power levels. The entire CBE system. You are looking to make twice the OEM power. Might be giving up as many as 20ftlbs using a stock CBE. I have seen stage 2 cars gain 10+wtq with a CBE. 5th 5EAT's do not automatically lose 10% more than a MT. Much more to it than that. Most stock 5EAT's make around 190whp on our Mustang (CAN91) with the dyno parasitic measurements being taken and saved off the exact car on the dyno.

[KGB]

Thanks m-sprank, yes, on a good cold day, 22psi might be ok,

in this case, examining the EFR compression maps,

with 6258 I get 38lb at peak turbo efficiency and 41lb down to 60% efficiency.

For the larger 6758 these range from 41 to 46lb/min.

These translate roughly to 380-410chp for 6258 and 410-460chp for the larger 6758.

Assuming ~25% conversion from crank hp to whp And Automatic losses I get:

280-310whp w/6258 and 310-345whp w/6758 on Cal91.

For reference, I currently get ~240whp on Cal91 with a VF52 and all supporting mods.

(on E85 I get 280whp.) All measured on a conservative Mustang @ GST Motorsports.

 

My guess is that the 6258 will spool ~200rpm faster than my VF52 (which spools up at 3,700rpm on Cal91 and 3,400rpm on E85 on my Auto setup.)

The larger 6758 will spool-up 200-300rpm slower i.e. 3,900-4,000rpm...

(Still faster than my AVO380 experiment which takes 4,200 to spool up on Cal91.)

 

My Auto has one of the first VB upgrades by HexMods and an auxiliary cooler.

I am also planning & saving for its eventual rebuilt making it more robust -

perhaps HexMods will have a rebuilt service ready by then,

how about it HexMods?

 

Going back to the main points in question:

 

1. If I do nothing to my stock CBE, to what extend will it become the limiting factor for the 6258 and

for the larger 6758?

on Cal91 and,

on E85?

I am suspect that on E85 the larger 6758 might find my OEM CBE a bit limiting,

but I am under the impression that on Cal91 it should be very little effect, if any at all, not worth the $1K+ investment to upgrade the whole CBE.

 

What do you all think?

 

2. What partial mods (mid pipe, Y-pipe,) can help (data?)

(I want to keep my sounds stock so loud aftermarket mufflers are a no go.)

 

Thanks again All!

[NSFW]

Can I please ask members to comment on the extend that an OEM exhaust limits the top end (any anything else,) and which part of the OEM exhaust is the worst offender: the mid pipe, y pipe, or the mufflers?

...

 

What do you all think, if I were to invest in upgrading elements of the OEM exhaust, which ones have the best ROI: y pipe / mid pipe / mufflers?

(It is very important to me to keep the sound/noise OEM-like - I do not want to attract any attention

 

I have a 3" midpipe with 2 x 2.5" after the Y, and stock mufflers.

 

I don't think they mufflers are costing me any power at all. With an ATP 3076 I got 377whp on a hot day (90F) on a dyno that reads about like most DynoJets. That's about what people get with full CBEs, and I have a high-flow cat in my downpipe, which is unusual for this power level. (I'm a tree hugger, but I'm OK with that.)

 

My setup is slightly louder than stock but it's mostly just awesomer. I don't like loud cars and I'm totally content with this setup.

 

The stock midpipe has a huge resonator on it, so losing that changes the exhaust tone a lot and makes it a slightly louder. The mufflers do most of the quieting though. My midpipe has a "resonator" but it's so tiny that I don't think it makes much difference. It's basically an 18" long 4" section in the otherwise-3" pipe. Whereas the stock resonator as about the size of a briefcase.

 

I have no idea how much power the stock midpipe costs. But if you're really concerned about noise, consider just doing turbo / up-pipe / down-pipe, get tuned, see what the results are. Mid & Y are usually sold together, so you can upgrade them together if you want. Your tune will probably need minor adjustments but it should cost way less than a full tune.

 

If you really want silent+deadly you could have a really big resonator added to the aftermarket midpipe.... I'm pretty sure you could have very nearly stock sound, with unmeasurable power loss.

[Th3Franz]

The stock mid pipe resonator is louvered, so it's probably the biggest restriction, but really only comes into play at the top end. Are you getting a full race exhaust manifold?

[m sprank]

Does not take a cold day for 22psi on CAN91. That is our standard boost target for aftermarket turbos and CAN91. We do it all day long. Max track car runs 22psi on CAN91.

 

You can never assume power levels and losses. Every car is different. Assuming leads to disappointment.

 

Your current set up spools late. Even with a 5EAT.

 

Have a CBE built. Choose mufflers you like and tips you like. Then have it assembled by a muffler shop. Why spend sooooo much for a turbo kit and keep the stock exhaust? You wont be fooling anyone come 2014. When the new smog laws and test procedures kick in, you will no longer be able to pass no matter what. So, you only have 1 more year of "grace" before it is unregister-able for street use anyway.

[KGB]

My impression was that with a valet/oem program running, our modified cars should pass the OBII computer test with no problems, how else would everybody with stage 2 + mods passes in CA? Any ideas?

 

And yes, I had expected ~300rpm faster spool on my setups,

not sure what holding it back,

I hope to get tuned by Paul @Yimi soon and we'll see what he can do.

 

Are there examples of 5EAT Automatics with a VF52 + UP & DP which spool much faster (then mine,) on regular fuel or E85? I would love to see any!

 

The current plan is to get a larger Midpipe with a larger resonator such as:

http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1021_1033_1055

as well as a larger Y-pipe.

I have seen no evidence that the mufflers are a restriction -

if any believe otherwise, please share your experience - thanks again!