Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and DW750s

[LittleBlueGT]

Would sticking with a VF turbo help with response time compared to something like a 68HTA or an 18G-TD05?

 

Maybe a small amount, but it would not make it feel like a TMIC.

[LittleBlueGT]

This has been a little frustrating.

 

After seeing Infamous' logs of a FP68HTA boosting 22 psi at red-line, I really thought I had some sort of problem with my car.

 

I really do not think that is the case anymore.

 

Here is a graph showing airflow vs MAP, you will notice that on one run I am using OEM boost control, on the other a MBC. Ignore the greater flow at low end as the car was boosting to 25 psi (just doesn't show in the logs). But notice the top end flow. I thought I needed something more to control boost, but as you can see at a few more psi I am essentially flowing the same amount of air. I don't make anymore overall power either, if anything it is down a couple of whp, and more likely to detonate.

 

This is the how my airflow goes:

 

-into KSTech 73 CAI (clean filter)

-APS turbo inlet

-68HTA

-RacerX FMIC

-TGVs

-Perrin header (port matched)

-GS UP w/ EWG

-DP (now catless)

-very free flowing exhaust

 

I have tested for leaks, there aren't any.

 

This turbo is choking up top. Every dyno data-base I have seen shows it boosting up to about where I have it set. But Infamous somehow getting 22 psi at red-line (and 350 g/s to boot) had me thinking. I thought the HFC has clogged, but now that is gone.

 

I think this turbo is just wrung out where it is, I have no other ideas to make it flow more (other then an 8cm hotside).

[Legend]

The graph is hard to read, LBGT. I'm interested in seeing this. There is another account of high boost at redline too - finse 20psi at redline at altitude is around 23psi. By the way, how to you like the Perrin headers and what do you think they add to your setup?

[LittleBlueGT]

I will try this then:

 

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9899/gsvsmap.jpg

 

 

Photobucket doesn't work for me anymore.

 

The Green line is high boost MRP, and the blueline is high boost g/s.

 

Compare that to low boost MRP in red and low boost g/s in purple.

 

You will see that despite pushing the boost, the airflow doesn't go up. To me this means the turbo is pushing all it can push.

 

FWIW these logs were done on a hot day, and my MAF scaling is a bit off in the heat (reads too low). I scaled it in colder weather, and I have to rescale the upper end and then change the MAF IAT comp table.

 

I am flowing a good 30-35 g/s more then a VF52 in the same temps and same elevation.

 

Everything I did to my car on the AVO380 resulted in lower MRP, but about the same g/s. Inlet and TGVs lowered overall attainable boost, but g/s stayed the same. Headers and EWG, same thing. The EWG allows me to push things beyond what they should, but it still doesn't flow anymore.

 

In fact I have many logs (3rd, then 4th gear) that show about 0.5 psi higher boosting in 4th, but about 2-3 g/s less airflow.

 

My findings on the 68HTA are that it spools the same as a VF turbo, but makes 30-40 whp more. About the same as every other tuner. I just don't get how the odd person is getting soo much more out of it.

 

Maybe the high PR needed to really get the most out of the comp wheel is only seen at higher elevations? Maybe they are not all created equal? Just seems that 4 psi less is a lot!

 

I may try the 8cm housing in the future, as the housing there right now pops right off, just undo the V-band clamp and I am good. Didn't even have to pull the turbo from the car!

 

Perrin ELH is very good. I recommend gasket matching it, and wrapping it. You will find most tuners say it helps spool and torque a little bit.

 

ELH makes it sound a bit quieter too.

[grimsleeper]

This has been a little frustrating.

 

After seeing Infamous' logs of a FP68HTA boosting 22 psi at red-line, I really thought I had some sort of problem with my car.

 

I really do not think that is the case anymore.

 

Here is a graph showing airflow vs MAP, you will notice that on one run I am using OEM boost control, on the other a MBC. Ignore the greater flow at low end as the car was boosting to 25 psi (just doesn't show in the logs). But notice the top end flow. I thought I needed something more to control boost, but as you can see at a few more psi I am essentially flowing the same amount of air. I don't make anymore overall power either, if anything it is down a couple of whp, and more likely to detonate.

 

This is the how my airflow goes:

 

-into KSTech 73 CAI (clean filter)

-APS turbo inlet

-68HTA

-RacerX FMIC

-TGVs

-Perrin header (port matched)

-GS UP w/ EWG

-DP (now catless)

-very free flowing exhaust

 

I have tested for leaks, there aren't any.

 

This turbo is choking up top. Every dyno data-base I have seen shows it boosting up to about where I have it set. But Infamous somehow getting 22 psi at red-line (and 350 g/s to boot) had me thinking. I thought the HFC has clogged, but now that is gone.

 

I think this turbo is just wrung out where it is, I have no other ideas to make it flow more (other then an 8cm hotside).

 

I'm holding ~21psi @ redline, pushing 348g/s @ 6.5k (log got cut off). Obviously I don't have tune details to offer as I'm not the tuner, but figured it might be useful, or at least provide some hope. I'm logging Manifold Relative Pressure (corrected) in this log, which I now realize might not be the best idea since my peak targets are above 22psi.

[LittleBlueGT]

I'm holding ~21psi @ redline' date=' pushing 348g/s @ 6.5k (log got cut off). Obviously I don't have tune details to offer as I'm not the tuner, but figured it might be useful, or at least provide some hope. I'm logging Manifold Relative Pressure (corrected) in this log, which I now realize might not be the best idea since my peak targets are above 22psi.[/quote']

 

 

I wish mine could do that, but it isn't, and it won't. Unless I am a retard and I am missing something.

 

What temp and what elevation was the log taken at?

 

What other mods?

[grimsleeper]

I wish mine could do that, but it isn't, and it won't. Unless I am a retard and I am missing something.

 

What temp and what elevation was the log taken at?

 

What other mods?

 

70°F, 380ft. above sea level

 

Mods are pretty modest:

 

FP 68HTA

DW 740cc injectors

AVO 245lph fuel pump

SPT V2 cat back

COBB catted DP

TurboXS UP

COBB SF intake

COBB XLE BOV/BPV

Grimmspeed EBCS

Racer X FMIC

 

The 2.5" reductions were cut out of both the SPT catback and COBB downpipe.

[m sprank]

what fuel too? maybe the problem is fuel? i now you have tried everything LBGT. but shamar is getting 22psi at redline on e85. maybe it is the e85? it also takes larger than 750cc to do it. i am hitting 20psi at 7000rpm using e85 and 750cc (so cal at sea level). my injectors are maxed and this is causing us to have to taper boost. my 1000cc's showed up yesterday. waiting for my EWG and fuel rails then going to retune for 22psi (23 if we can do it) at 7000rpm.

 

i will be happy to post some logs for you as soon as the build is done. plan on hitting the local dyno too just for fun. hopefully the block lasts long enough to enjoy the power a little.

 

good luck on your tune. sounds like you are close to getting everything you can.

[LittleBlueGT]

I understand being able to run higher boost with E85 due to its octane. But I am not limiting boost due to knocking.

 

Does E85 actually allow the turbo to run higher boost?

[m sprank]

short answer yes. it is 4am and i am beat. but here is a very long thread on nasioc that has lots of info.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

 

if you google the question you get lots of info on afr and cr with e85 and the cooling effect of the fuel.

[LittleBlueGT]

short answer yes. it is 4am and i am beat. but here is a very long thread on nasioc that has lots of info.

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

 

if you google the question you get lots of info on afr and cr with e85 and the cooling effect of the fuel.

 

I have been following E85 tunes and discussion for the past 1.5 years now.

 

I totally understand (especially bigger turbo'd cars) not running full boost on pump fuel due to the car not being able to take it (turn boost up, but increased cylinder pressures necessitate richer AFRs and less timing such that a decrease in overall power occurs, even though one is flowing more air).

 

What I don't understand is how E85 can make a turbo run more boost, more then it was physically able to run before.

 

I am looking through that thread now, and I have googled it, but the only thing I have found (for or against my argument) is that a tuner running E85 on an EVO was not able to squeeze anymore boost of it in the top-end, but of course had an increase in power due to timing at or close to MBT and running E85 at its best power AFR, unlike gas which we usually cannot run at 12-12.5:1 due to octane.

[m sprank]

Maybe Shamar can shed some light. I admit I do not know everything. Just like you I read A LOT and try to follow the science behind the claims.

 

I see plenty of Corvette, Mustang and Buick forums where they are all able to run more boost on e85 then they could get out of the compressor on petrol fuel. Unfortunately they are not true scientific experiments.

 

All I know is I have seen the logs in person. Know what my car is already doing and see that more is there to be had.

 

Once the new injectors and ewg are in and tuning is done I will pull new logs and we can compare the before (20psi at 7k) and after (better be 22psi at 7k). Maybe we can see it in the AFR, MAF g/s, etc. By comparing the two we should see where the difference is.

 

This could be our own test. I can keep the variables to a minimum.

[yamie700]

I'm holding ~21psi @ redline' date=' pushing 348g/s @ 6.5k (log got cut off). Obviously I don't have tune details to offer as I'm not the tuner, but figured it might be useful, or at least provide some hope. I'm logging Manifold Relative Pressure (corrected) in this log, which I now realize might not be the best idea since my peak targets are above 22psi.[/quote']

 

What intake, volts, and air temp for the 348g/s? I used to think comparing g/s was good, but I've seen some weird scaling that throws numbers off. i.e. I have a K&N typhoon, at 4.7v 63IAT I'm about 280g/s. Saw somebody's log with same 4.7v around same temp and showed 324g/s.

[LittleBlueGT]

m sprank: I look forward to any logs you can provide.

 

The compressor of the turbo doesn't know what fuel is being injected. It just sucks in air and spits it out again. The turbine on the other hand does. Why that may matter, I do not know.

 

yamie700: Good questions on the scaling.

[LittleBlueGT]

Instead of looking at MAFv on a certain intake, we can always compare IDCs in certain injectors at a certain AFR.

 

I will log my IDCs today.

[grimsleeper]

What intake, volts, and air temp for the 348g/s? I used to think comparing g/s was good, but I've seen some weird scaling that throws numbers off. i.e. I have a K&N typhoon, at 4.7v 63IAT I'm about 280g/s. Saw somebody's log with same 4.7v around same temp and showed 324g/s.

 

I posted intake and IAT ^^^

4.83v @ 348g/s

[LittleBlueGT]

I posted intake and IAT ^^^

4.83v @ 348g/s

 

 

For me on my old K&N CAI 4.82 volts was 318 g/s or so. I hit 4.84 volts at 16.5 psi at red-line at 40F IAT on the K&N.

 

4.86 at 17.4 psi.

 

4.88 at 17.5 psi at 30F IAT (just looking through logs)

 

Obviously tuning MAF on different fuels is not an exact science, in the end if the AFRs are right, then you are good.

 

But if the K&N you had and I had were the same, then either you aren't flowing a real 348 g/s, or I am flowing more then 320.

[Infamous1]

The compressor of the turbo doesn't know what fuel is being injected. It just sucks in air and spits it out again. The turbine on the other hand does. Why that may matter, I do not know.

 

Correct, the fuel type has nothing to do with the boost that is capable of being ran. If that were the case the wgdc's would change between race/pump gas and E85. msprank's car boost exactly the same running e85 with the pump gas targets (20 tapering to 19).

 

Did you clock your turbo at all LBGT?

[grimsleeper]

For me on my old K&N CAI 4.82 volts was 318 g/s or so. I hit 4.84 volts at 16.5 psi at red-line at 40F IAT on the K&N.

 

4.86 at 17.4 psi.

 

4.88 at 17.5 psi at 30F IAT (just looking through logs)

 

Obviously tuning MAF on different fuels is not an exact science, in the end if the AFRs are right, then you are good.

 

But if the K&N you had and I had were the same, then either you aren't flowing a real 348 g/s, or I am flowing more then 320.

 

I never had the K&N, I have the COBB.

[m sprank]

Here is one to start. I am holding 20psi at 6500rpm. Sea level, 68deg F. I will dig up more for reference.

m sprank e85-1.csv

[LittleBlueGT]

Correct, the fuel type has nothing to do with the boost that is capable of being ran. If that were the case the wgdc's would change between race/pump gas and E85. msprank's car boost exactly the same running e85 with the pump gas targets (20 tapering to 19).

 

Did you clock your turbo at all LBGT?

 

No never clocked it. Why do you ask?

[LittleBlueGT]

I never had the K&N' date=' I have the COBB.[/quote']

 

That would explain that.

[LittleBlueGT]

Here is one to start. I am holding 20psi at 6500rpm. Sea level, 68deg F. I will dig up more for reference.

 

This is what is odd. At 800 feet ASL at 70 IAT I hit 20 psi by 3300 rpm, and flow a good 306-310 g/s.

[m sprank]

That log is with the OTS wastegate. We found that by shortening it all the way we got the best response and spool. That is with the arm almost as short as possible.

 

I am in process now of converting to a GS 38mm v-band EWG uppipe and Tial. Hopefully this gives more adjustment and better response.

[ClimberDHexMods]

LBGT, I assume you already saw, you could order that 8cm hotside from FP if their website reflects their inventory. Not a bad price considering they'll machine it to fit your 68HTA's TD05 turbine wheel. Then you swap it yourself or have a local shop do it. I've been there several times recently and their service has been incredible, and I would be very surprised if they couldn't do it. Talking with them on the phone gets the best results IMO.