Legacy STi

[Drift Monkey]

:o 40k? I would have a hard time rationalizing that one! :lol:

[SubaruDeac]

Low $40s would make choosing between a Legacy STi and an S4 a difficult proposition.

[7stars]

twin turbo H6? It'd be too front heavy.

[Opie]

[quote name='7stars']twin turbo H6? It'd be too front heavy.[/quote] Not at all, the current H6 is just a few pounds heavier than the 2.5, 7 - 10 lbs IIRC. As far as the Low to mid 40's price point, the same source aslo told me two years ago that the new Legacy (The '05's we just got) would be on the low to mid 30's, so take taht as you will. A fully optioned GT is in that range, but it's not the starting point.

[7stars]

It actually weighs 100lbs more. I think you're thinking of the size, which is 8-10" over the 4cyl.

[WRXTom]

Opie...sedan and wagon versions? Tom

[MtnSub]

IMO, a Twin Turbo, H6 350 HP Leg GT/Sti in the mid $40s, only makes sense if Subaru wants to set a future stake in the big bucks, label prestige mkt segment. Especially in sedan form, the choices in the low to mid $40s are great and the fat part of that market demand sophistication, spa like dealers and lots of snoby stuff that is the antithesis of Subaru. In the $40k range, Subaru would not only be competing with name power of Benz, BMW, Lexus, but they would lose to Infinity G35/45 prospects and other mid-$30 car makers. I am not clever enough to understand Subaru in the $40k+ market. The new Leg/Outbacks have transformed Subaru from trustworthy, ugly duckling status to a stylish performance choice, with “AWD function” and “value” still winning the day. I think a Leg GT/Sti, built from existing part bins in the $34K range would deliver better margin and mkt share for Subaru and more fun-per-buck than a mega price/power Suby. A $33-$34.5 k LegGT/Sti could rob customers from its current range of competitors and from BMW-Benz-Lexus-Volvo. Personally, I would not be interested in 350 HP, H6 for $40k+. If we ever came to a consensus on one or two points regarding a LegGT/Sti, is SOA listening? Does this site have enough critical mass to be of mktg interest to SOA? I bet the business plan and manuf/build plan work for ?Leg GT/Sti? is already done and we are just placing bets on the outcome. Maybe SOA could be influenced on a few minor options and the importance of a suspension upgrade kit supported by dealer for current Leg GT missionaries.

[gtguy]

[quote name='MtnSub']IMO, a Twin Turbo, H6 350 HP Leg GT/Sti in the mid $40s, only makes sense if Subaru wants to set a future stake in the big bucks, label prestige mkt segment. Especially in sedan form, the choices in the low to mid $40s are great and the fat part of that market demand sophistication, spa like dealers and lots of snoby stuff that is the antithesis of Subaru. In the $40k range, Subaru would not only be competing with name power of Benz, BMW, Lexus, but they would lose to Infinity G35/45 prospects and other mid-$30 car makers. I am not clever enough to understand Subaru in the $40k+ market. The new Leg/Outbacks have transformed Subaru from trustworthy, ugly duckling status to a stylish performance choice, with “AWD function” and “value” still winning the day. I think a Leg GT/Sti, built from existing part bins in the $34K range would deliver better margin and mkt share for Subaru and more fun-per-buck than a mega price/power Suby. A $33-$34.5 k LegGT/Sti could rob customers from its current range of competitors and from BMW-Benz-Lexus-Volvo. Personally, I would not be interested in 350 HP, H6 for $40k+. If we ever came to a consensus on one or two points regarding a LegGT/Sti, is SOA listening? Does this site have enough critical mass to be of mktg interest to SOA? I bet the business plan and manuf/build plan work for ?Leg GT/Sti? is already done and we are just placing bets on the outcome. Maybe SOA could be influenced on a few minor options and the importance of a suspension upgrade kit supported by dealer for current Leg GT missionaries.[/quote] Pursuant to a couple of your points, Subaru is planning to revamp its dealer structure to exclusive Subaru offerings, rather that being teamed with someone. This is with a gradual eye toward creating the kind of dealership experience that will support a more premium branding. And no, this site doesn't, and never will have enough marketing clout for SOA to pay any attention to it. No offense to anyone, but sites such as this one are a pain in the butt for manufacturers, because many facets of their existence are based on the presumption that the car isn't good enough, not a problem with the average person, who buys a car, drives it, takes it to the dealer for service, and doesn't howl because the latest model doesn't come with racing seats, or a track-ready suspension, etc, etc. Such sites also rarely provide useful information. People say that the Legacy GT has a suspension that is too soft, so undersprung as to be dangerous. Not true, but it's a matter of perception. Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car. Boarders would always find something lacking, and wait for (the tri-turbo Legacy with 400hp), and the people who are actually willing to spend that kind of dosh for a car, would hop in that stiffly sprung Legacy STi, hit the first bump and u-turn back to the dealership. It would seem that part of the grand design for Subaru is a gradual upscaling, with value always a prominent part of the equation. If the uber-Legacy comes with all the goodies (HID, nav, etc, etc.) and costs around $40K, but can whomp any sedan on the road, it still offers high value, even at the price point. But the leather has to get nicer, every aspect of the car has to get nicer. I suspect that the time frame is a bit optimistic. Subaru has some marketing work to do before the world is ready for that kind of car. Kevin

[racerdave]

Taking a brand upmarket is a tricky proposition, hence the existance of Lexus, Infiniti and Acura instead of premium placings at Toyota, Nissan and Honda. I agree with most of what Mt. Sub said about pricing and targeting for an STI Legacy. Taking the Legacy too far upmarket too quick is stupid (re: VW Phaeton). And I also agree with Kev about SoA and this site..

[waflowers]

[quote name='gtguy']Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car.[/quote] I don't want to see the car come standard with these sorts of things; I want them to be an options for those that want them and have them covered under warrenty. It would be suicide for Subaru if all they delivered was a hard core car. But IMHO they are leaving some money on the table by not making it an option. -- Bill

[gtguy]

[quote name='waflowers'][quote name='gtguy']Those same people want to see higher (more uncomfortable) spring rates, and stiffer strut valving, which means that nobody would buy the car.[/quote] I don't want to see the car come standard with these sorts of things; I want them to be an options for those that want them and have them covered under warrenty. It would be suicide for Subaru if all they delivered was a hard core car. But IMHO they are leaving some money on the table by not making it an option. -- Bill[/quote] I think you're right, Bill. But rumor has it that there will be SPT bits for the Legacy, same as there were for the WRX. Problem is that people rarely opt for the manufacturers option, scoffing at it for price or some other reason. The SPT suspension kit, for example, for the WRX sedan, was well thought-out, and included struts, springs, aluminum control arms and firmer suspension bushings for the rear of the car, for a real market price of about $1200. People said "What, you can get coilovers for that price," and they went sitting on shelves. Many bought the setup, but many more didn't. And speaking as someone who is driving on that setup, it is excellent, durable, maintenance-free and bulletproof. It's a bargain, and I only wish the wagon's kit came with the AL control arms, instead of just the stiffer control arm bushings. This market, meaning the Subaru enthusiast crowd, needs to understand that you have to support something to make it grow. It's true of tuners as well as aftermarket parts. That SPT stuff was first-rate. I have tracked, autocrossed and rallycrossed my struts/springs to a fare-thee-well, and they work perfectly. That says a lot. But if Subaru doesn't sell the stuff, they're going to think that nobody wants it, and not offer it in the future. It was great that there was a manufacturer-offered aftermarket for the WRX, and I was happy to support it. I didn't get the STi pink bits from Subaru, only because they didn't offer them. If Subaru offers a part, it's generally well thought-out and tested, and yes, the price reflects that reality. This board is for the most part a very mature and reasoned space. I only hope that when (and if) the Legacy parts go on offer from Subaru, that people will support that market as best they can. Obviously, the parts have to be good, but if the WRX parts are any indication, they will be first-rate. And as I always say, 18-way adjustable coilovers offer someone 18 chances to screw up the ride and handling of their car. :lol: Kevin

[SC GT]

IMO, a true Legacy STi would be built in Japan, not the US, which would potentially blow the price out of the water.

[racerdave]

Amen to the 18 ways to screw up the handling. Dual-Adjustable shocks have to be about the most misunderstood parts in the market. Shock tuning is as much art as it is science, and the amount of misinformation and misunderstanding out there as to how/why to tune them is staggering. And the aftermarket mfgs are laughing all the way to the bank.

[7stars]

I would rather see a stripped down Legacy with STi performance package for $30k, with production limited to 1500. I don't believe anyone would buy a $40k Subaru within the next 2 years.

[MtnSub]

7 Stars, if we see a Leg GT/STI, I think it will most likely fill the "LL Bean" positon for Legacy and be a fully loaded, max weight, top of line offering. The only way they could limit 1,500 units to $30K would be if demand was very low. From enthusiatas point of view, a stripped down, light weight Leg GT/Sti would be the best offering. There may be genius in your thought because selling out and performing with legend would be clever marketing promo for Subaru. Wonder where this board goes from here. We have all made our suggestions and placed our bets. I guess we may get benefit of some insider on our board letting us know what they see in pipeline. I am going to buy regardless, read Opie drive impressions on AB Leg at home and follow gtguy comments. My short test drive was very positive. This site will be very helpful for tire, wheel and maybe future suspension upgrade info.

[MacG5]

Very interesting discussion. I think that a 350Hp, H6 turbo setup in a 6 sp Man Tranny car at $42,500 USD is great value. Over here an S4 costs $72,000 plus Canadian dollars. A "GT Sti" with the aforementioned setup would have more HP than the S4 and you would get better value for your money. Hell at $57,000 I'd start saving now and buy one in three years. But like a lot of you have said, who's going to pay that much $$$ for a Subaru? The subaru die hards and a few newbies like myself are aware of the great value of these cars, but the masses are going to run to Audi, BMW and Mercs just because they are percieved as better cars. People don't think about how much it will actually cost to fix one of the Uber-German marques after the warranty runs out. And for 20 years those German cars have dominated the luxury segment. I've read all of the arguments, and if I could offer one bit of advice to Subaru, it would be to stay away from that segment of the market for a few years. Continue to build great Gts an create a solid base of 25-35 year old GT lovers/owners and in 5 years when we all have more disposable income, offer something that would be a real winner. Because even though I would become a miser to afford a 350 Hp H6 Sti, I'm one in ten thousand, and right now it's just not worth it for the company. Cheers, Mac.

[MtnSub]

For a little perspective on what a $40k USD Leg GT would compete against in today’s market, see the Volvo site for the V70R wagon or S60R sedan. Don’t dismiss their AWD as mostly FW. Not only is the level of interior sophistication/quality for this Volvo flagship model in a very different league than Subaru, but check the mechanicals. Before outlining the critical points, let me say that as impressive as all the gee-whiz tech is on the Volvo, the engineering simplicity, functionality and maintainability of the Subaru is very admirable and beautiful design. The Volvo is so tech/computer assisted that I might worry that “Hal” would take over the spacecraft. I will test drive a V70R in two weeks. Here are the specs, but you must see the level of interior sophistication/luxury.  Shorter, wider track, lower and longer wheel base than Leg GT.  295 ft/lb at 1950-5600 rpm with 0-60 in 5.4 sec. using 6MT. Turbo, 2.5 engine.  Brimbo 4 piston 13 inch vented brakes all around with 60-0 in 118 ft. Volvo is 300lb. Heavier.  17x8 wheels with 235/17/45 P Zero tires.  Driver selectable active suspension settings (comfort, sport, race).  DSTC that allow bypass, partial assist or full assist.  AWD that adjusts front, back and side for aggressive cornering, but is 90% FW under non-stress.  Sport steering with 2.5 turns to lock  Bi-Xenon headlamps with projector beam fog lamps.  Front seats are fantastic. Enough about how tough competition gets at $40k from a competitor with a reputation for building safe cars that last a long time. Much of the Volvo is excess, but that market segment wants that. The current Leg GT/Ltd with after-market tires comes very close to offering just as much performance for $8k-$10k less and a lot less gadgetry to worry about and eventually fix.

[agctr]

There are a lot of great arguments for and against building a GT STi. I think all the models before in Liberty/Legacy and WRX that have been limited runs have been snapped up very quickly. Limited runs can be great for the collector and the boyracer types (cashed up of course). I myself would go for the GT STi as its something different from the run of the mill. All the worldwide car builds bring out a few special models, obvioulsy we just have to wait our turn, again !

[7stars]

The thing is, the WRX and EVO were race cars. The Legacy is not known for its performance on a world circuit, so it would be very tough to market it as an ultra high performance car. Remember the SVX? The GS300 offered more for roughly the same price. I don't think Subaru can directly compete with the next generation GS. I think they should concentrate on making the Legacy a little better every year, and perhaps offering the full blown STi engine at a small premium, say $1500 extra over the GT. It would be cheap to produce and I think it would sell. I am already surprised at how many WRX owners there are who don't even care that much about performance. And I'm extremely surprised by the amount of people that have been getting GT's instead of the 2.5i, like somebody's mother on here. The WRX STi's harsh suspension really turns away a lot of would be buyers...the ones that want the absolute best, but best does not necessarily mean a stiff ride. These normal everyday people would buy a 300hp Legacy. They just can't call it an STi. Maybe GT-S? :)

[agctr]

Fantastic points I have to admit, the SVX showed a lot of promise and are still seen a lot on our roads here in Oz although the parts can be very expensive. There are a lot of 2.5 on the roads here already although the GT is gaining in popularity minus the badging, no GT badging here in Oz. The STi version of the GT would certainly add more depth to the range of STi. I dont think I would like to be an STi salesperson, I think it would be very boring talking about the same car all the time. I went there on Thursday and the guy said there was nothing he could tell me extra about the car as I knew it all. I found that comment a little strange but agreed with him lol........ Still think that ppl would buy a 300Hp Scooby regardless if it was called an STi or not.

[racerdave]

[quote name='MtnSub']  Bi-Xenon headlamps with projector beam fog lamps.  Front seats are fantastic. Enough about how tough competition gets at $40k from a competitor with a reputation for building safe cars that last a long time. Much of the Volvo is excess, but that market segment wants that. The current Leg GT/Ltd with after-market tires comes very close to offering just as much performance for $8k-$10k less and a lot less gadgetry to worry about and eventually fix.[/quote] The Xenons are reflector type. I see the Leg GT as a more involving driver's car with a 10k discount and without the technogadgetry over the V70R. I drove a S60R, and while it was fast and did indeed have great seats (even my wife's V70 has very good seats), I didn't think the R offered much feedback or feel, and that doomed it for me. I actually preferred the 325i to it, even though far slower in a straight line, because it was a much more complete-feeling driver's car... to me. I didn't like the R's steering feel -- or complete absence of it. It's a very nice car. But I think the Legacy GT is going to be just as capable and more involving, without the excess luxury and techno-gadget suspension (which I'm rather wary of in terms of long-term ownership). So that's why I'm going to buy the Leg GT instead of the V70R. That says a lot for the Subie because I can get Ford X-plan pricing the Volvo, which knocks about 3.5K off the price. But I just don't think it's worth the extra $$.

[MtnSub]

Hey RacerDave, I have not driven the V70R yet, but you stated my view of the Leg GT vs V70R perfectly. I can buy eiter car and straight line power is not a factor, both cars are faster than an BMW 325ix, which I enjoyed owning. My comments about the V70R were meant to show what a $40k+ Leg GT would be competing against. I think the Leg GT can be best of class in the low to mid $30k range, with a broader market. I think Subaru can win new customers, like me, from BMW, VolvoR, Benz, etc with a modest upgrade of the new Leg GT. Unless I am really impressed by driving the 05 V70R with improved steering and 4C software, I will be buying a Leg GT/Ltd and changing tires/wheels day after purchase. The Leg GT looks and feels smaller (a good thing) than the boxy Volvo R, but the specs show just the opposite.

[agctr]

Boys Boys Boys Boys, BOYS Do u really want your neighbours, friends, fellow workers and other drivers shouting out "Bloody Volvo Driver?" Get back onboard guys, gish!

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='agctr']Boys Boys Boys Boys, BOYS Do u really want your neighbours, friends, fellow workers and other drivers shouting out "Bloody Volvo Driver?" Get back onboard guys, gish![/quote] Is this any better than "Bloody Subaru Driver?" :lol:

[MtnSub]

As I have stated in previous posts, I am not brand centric, I am driving experience driven and not impressed with excess for the purpose of presteige. Regarding Volvo V70R, just found out it has a 43 ft. turning radius and that single fact is enough to take it off my list. Subaru is about 35 ft. turning radius. This spec detail impacts sport driving and everyday parking lot experience and can be a safety hazard. The Volvo's extra 400 lbs of weight is a concern, even though it has more power and even bigger brakes than the Subaru. The BMW 325xi wagon is the only option and it is a little too small and I must special order to get MT with xi wagon, wihich means car will be Bangled by the time it is built. The more I look and drive, the better I feel about the Leg GT.