Legacy STi

[waflowers]

[quote name='gtguy']When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft.[/quote] The WRX [b]does[/b] understeer and it [b]is[/b] too soft. Fortunately both are easily fixable with lots of choices and sources for readily available parts.

[orpie_lightfoot]

I have driven hundreds of legacys (both GT and non) at high speeds through a parking lot, which is not nearly so even as a highway or test track. At about 90 mph, it does get scary(it's a BIG lot) but name any car that would'nt be scary under these conditions. These cars handle great, and unless a person really doesn't know what they're doing, control should not be a problem.

[WRXTom]

The issue is not one of a lack of control but one of degree of control. The standard set by the STi setup was quite high and my ideal setup gets me as close to that standard without adding too much NVH. For me, the Legacy could be brought closer to that standard. I'm sure the opinion of others will vary. And 90 mph is not scary in the GT...unless, of course, you are in a parking lot. :) Tom

[7stars]

B4 according to various sites, the Leg has struts up front and multilink/wishbones in the rear.

[gtguy]

[quote name='waflowers'][quote name='gtguy']When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft.[/quote] The WRX [b]does[/b] understeer and it [b]is[/b] too soft. Fortunately both are easily fixable with lots of choices and sources for readily available parts.[/quote] The WRX understeers and is too soft "for you" would be the necessary addition to that statement. It clarifies that it is personal assessment, as opposed to a blanket statement referencing the car's inadequacy. I still think the problem is that people feel body roll, and think that the car isn't handling well. The same was true of the WRX. Wheels/tires and a swaybar (for the wagon, just wheels/tires for the sedan) would get you very far toward handling excellence. Don't forget the test (I think it was Motor Trend) who ran a WRX with wheels/tires and a WRX with wheels/tires and the SPT suspension kit at the track, and the SPT'ed WRX wasn't all that much faster over a lap than the stock suspended WRX. Stiff cars suck to drive on a daily basis, and they don't sell to the general (read: non-enthusiast) public. That's a fact of life. It's fine if you know what you're getting into, but if you go to your Subaru dealer looking for a family sedan and hop into the Legacy, only to have your kidneys rearranged, you aren't going to buy that car. And Subaru will not make its sales nut by catering to enthusiasts. No offense intended to anyone, but we are a collective pain in the backside for automakers. :lol: The RE92s are a known deficiency of the Subaru line. Until I have a chance to flog one I will reserve judgment, but guys thought I was weird because with my driving style, my WRX wagon didn't understeer. Everybody who rode with me would ask what I did, and I would say "Nothing. Why?" That's why I say that driving style has a lot to do with how a car behaves, and assessments thereof, without laying any "good" or "bad" qualifiers on that evaluative quality. A friend of mine is aggressive, pitching the car deep into a corner and trying to muscle it around the turn. He said my car plowed like a road grader. My style is smooth inputs, always feeling what the car is doing, never doing anything to upset it. I said my stock car didn't understeer. Now, I certainly enjoy my STi suspension mods. But I got to drive a friend's '03 WRX wagon, and my first thought was "Boy, this car is nice!" The thing I want to clarify is that the GT doesn't necessarily need a stiffer suspension. Certain drivers, however, might need one for their ultimate satisfaction, which is a fairer statement. Kevin

[Val]

[quote name='MtnSub']I also listed wider (225), more aggressive tires that would help handling/braking ..[/quote] If you want to keep correct speedometer readings, a Plus Zero tire upgrade should be either 245/40-17 or 235/40-17 on 17 x 8.5 wheels. Is there enough fender space for those?

[Legacy_Fan]

[quote name='B4_Maniac']Yeah DM. The Subaru parts rep for my region and I were discussing this at length when I got the car. Plus, with recent experiences in the GT the current springs are NOT set up for performance driveing. The performance potential of this car is being stiffled by the tires and the lack of a stiffer springs and larger anit-roll bars. I have never driven a car with this much power with such a complient suspension set up. It realy forces you to back down off of turns and keep your fun on straight line. I would even say the stock STI springs should have been the LEAST they put in this car. But, they wanted to tune it for the middle market and keep the ride soft on the highway. I disagree. Some one that realy does not know how to handle themselves in a sticky situation will find them selves in a bad way if they over power a turn in this car with the stock set up. The engine demands stiffer bits and stickier tires. PERIOD.[/quote] I have to totally agree with your assessment. When I test drove a GT and took it hard into a freeway onramp loop that would normally be fine with other cars, the car started a fairly smooth 4 wheel slide, and I had to back off to keep it on the road. I would almost say that the current setup is dangerous. We may be seeing accidents caused by too much power and not enough cornering ability with the current factory setup. These 2 need to go hand in hand. Personally, I feel you can have better handling without compromising ride comfort. Interestingly enough, right after I test drove the Legacy GT, I drove the Mazda 3 and was able to take that same curve at a much higher speed. I have GT Limited 5sp on order and don't appreciate having to dump more money on tires and suspension parts.

[MtnSub]

I find it hard to compare a Mazda 3 and Leg GT. Maybe they are in similar price range and you are saying that Subaru could have done a better job of dialing in suspension, if Mazada 3 team did it. I don’t like the idea of changing tires & suspension, but I was not impressed with my BMW 328 without added sport suspension and upgrade to 17/225/45 X8s on it. I have read a great deal about driving technique and car dynamics, but never taken a performance driving class or raced. I have driven in Europe with a pro driver and know that I do not have pro driving skills. Unless I was not paying attention (driver error) I cannot imagine taking a ramp turn so fast that I lost the car because the cars power fooled me into toruble. People do dumb stuff in Porsche’s every day and it is not the cars fault. This back and forth about suspension being to soft or just right with better paws reinforces my view that a factory engineered suspension upgrade kit is the best solution for Subaru and its more sporting customers. Unless Subaru builds a ltd edition Leg Sti, a small but important group of customers will always be unhappy with general market suspension set-up. Even if Subaru builds a stiffer Leg Sti, many base Leg GT drivers will want a suspension kit for their lighter, non-sunfroof challenged, low cost GT screamer. I am sure that Subaru or some quality after-market guys will end the need for this discussion by the time we get our GTs and settle in.

[dskelto]

I gotta ask how fast are you guys taking your Legacies into these on ramps?

[Legacy_Fan]

[quote name='MtnSub']I find it hard to compare a Mazda 3 and Leg GT. Maybe they are in similar price range and you are saying that Subaru could have done a better job of dialing in suspension, if Mazada 3 team did it. I have read a great deal about driving technique and car dynamics, but never taken a performance driving class or raced. I have driven in Europe with a pro driver and know that I do not have pro driving skills. Unless I was not paying attention (driver error) I cannot imagine taking a ramp turn so fast that I lost the car because the cars power fooled me into toruble. People do dumb stuff in Porsche’s every day and it is not the cars fault. [/quote] I don't think the Mazda 3 is really that comparable either, but it got a .87 on the skidpad with car and driver. I don't think the legacy gt will get near that with the stock setup. The Mazda 3 was fun to drive even though it was a little smaller in the back. Also, there was no safety issue with that onramp and i was going about 40. It's not that difficult for an experienced driver to see what a car can do.

[dskelto]

Regarding driving dynamics: I've noticed that in tight turns and curves the Legacy will initially exhibit a bit of roll and understeer, but that is usually easily correctable by applying a bit more throttle. The AWD does its thing and send more power to the rear wheels and then the car tucks in nicely. Of course I am in no way advocating unsafe driving on public roads.

[MtnSub]

I was not suggesting that anyone was driving in an unsafe manner or unable to control their car. I was responding to the comment made by Leg-Fan that given the cars power, it could be dangerous for the average Joe/Jane driver in a arc corner, because of soft suspension. Many people on this site have technical driving skills. I am a knowledgeable driver with sport car experience, but would not consider pushing a car into four wheel drift. My point was that the car would need to have a major design flaw to say it was “dangerous” for average drivers. Average drivers get into problems by over driving Civics and they get into trouble in Porsches. Neither Civics or Porsches have major cornering design flaws and driver error is the issue. Hope I did not offend. Does anyone really think the Leg GT suspension is unsafe for the mid-market Leg GT customer? I still think the solution to this line of discussion will be sport suspension upgrade for those of us that want the toy. Maybe I will go to school and enjoy the satisfaction of a controlled drift. I have enjoyed the “off and stab throttle” technique in a corner with great satisfaction and surprise at how well it worked.

[gtguy]

[quote name='MtnSub']I was not suggesting that anyone was driving in an unsafe manner or unable to control their car. I was responding to the comment made by Leg-Fan that given the cars power, it could be dangerous for the average Joe/Jane driver in a arc corner, because of soft suspension. Many people on this site have technical driving skills. I am a knowledgeable driver with sport car experience, but would not consider pushing a car into four wheel drift. My point was that the car would need to have a major design flaw to say it was “dangerous” for average drivers. Average drivers get into problems by over driving Civics and they get into trouble in Porsches. Neither Civics or Porsches have major cornering design flaws and driver error is the issue. Hope I did not offend. Does anyone really think the Leg GT suspension is unsafe for the mid-market Leg GT customer? I still think the solution to this line of discussion will be sport suspension upgrade for those of us that want the toy. Maybe I will go to school and enjoy the satisfaction of a controlled drift. I have enjoyed the “off and stab throttle” technique in a corner with great satisfaction and surprise at how well it worked.[/quote] Exactly, and what I suspect is that for many mid-market drivers, the GT is going to be too firm. I sent a colleague to test-drive a Forester, as she was looking for a mini-ute, and she didn't like how you could "feel every bump in the road" with the Forester. That is the kind of person who is often shopping for cars. Subaru is taking a chance with the suspension tuned as firmly as it is. I imagine that, as with the WRX, there will be some "aftermarket" offerings for the Legacy, unless the people who have pooh-poohed the WRX offerings as "I can get cheaper in the aftermarket" have ruined Subaru's belief that such items will sell. Based on what I have read, I can't see any average driver getting into trouble with the GT. As people on this board have said, the car handles better than I can drive. I'm about to go and find out. Kevin

[B4_Maniac]

I agree with Legacy fan. I also felt that the Leagcy was not safe on a hard turn mainly due to the tires. The springs come in when I take tight turns and I am trying to keep the car flat. I have to say, I do not baby my cars. I like to know what I am driving and what its limits are. But, with the Legacy the engine definatly out performs its stock springs and tires.

[WRXTom]

I would be in for a factory sport suspension. My assumption is that there will be an STi spring option as some point. We'll see. The discussion on the GT suspension will carry more weight when more actual owners of the car can comment. Test drives are usually too restricted to be very useful unless you are lucky enough to get the opportunity for an extended drive over familiar terrain. Tom...2500 kms and counting.

[B4_Maniac]

[quote name='WRXTom']I would be in for a factory sport suspension. My assumption is that there will be an STi spring option as some point. We'll see. The discussion on the GT suspension will carry more weight when more actual owners of the car can comment. Tom...2500 kms and counting.[/quote] I agree..my parts rep said he will make a point with SOA to request this. Hey! :x I am a owner! 500 plus miles on my GT 5/MT!! :D

[WRXTom]

No worries B4...I knew that :lol: Also, I certainly don't consider the GT to be unsafe. Some time spent learning the dynamics of the car will keep you out of trouble. Tom

[Legacy_Fan]

[quote name='WRXTom']No worries B4...I knew that :lol: Also, I certainly don't consider the GT to be unsafe. Some time spent learning the dynamics of the car will keep you out of trouble. Tom[/quote] Unsafe might be a strong word, but when you are advertising your vehicle as "faster then Porche, BMW, or Audi", then you better make sure it corners like them. The enthusiasts that are going to be buying them will be expecting this and could get in trouble if the do not corner as expected. I would like are car that errors on the side of safety (corners better that expected-like a Mazda RX8) so when that emergency maneuver happens, even the average driver comes through safely. You shouldn't need to learn the car to keep out of trouble. Sounds like they had the car set up right in Japan(Car of the Year) so i'm just a little disappointed we couldn't get the same suspension setup. Sorry, just my opinion.

[WRXTom]

[quote]I would like are car that errors on the side of safety (corners better that expected-like a Mazda RX8) so when that emergency maneuver happens, even the average driver comes through safely. You shouldn't need to learn the car to keep out of trouble.[/quote] Didn't mean to offend. I'm with you that superb handling is just as important to the average driver, even though they might not know it until they need it, as it is for those have paid for Skip Barber and autoX on the weekends. My comment was more directed to my experience that the excellent low end torque of the GT can take you by surprise and overpower the stock rubber under certain circumstances. Once you learn the limits of the car (tires actually) then you can avoid getting into trouble. But, my preference is for higher limits. Tom

[7stars]

A 4 wheel skid is called neutral handling. That's the safest kind of skid for the average driver. We've said over and over on this site that the RE92's suck. There's your problem. It's not the suspension. A dangerous suspension is one where you do not feel a good connection to the road, and the car doesn't behave how you assume it would based on tire feedback. Try driving an '04 Accord. It's very nervous going around a corner, requiring constant correction of the steering wheel. The Camry has a soft and floaty suspension, but through a corner, it tracks very accurately.

[gtguy]

I just returned from a meet-and-greet at my favorite Subaru dealer and I can unequivocally say that except for the tires, I won't be changing a thing on my GT. That car is fabulous, and I can't believe how well it handles. On the same car, I ran Tein HAs with 450/375 spring rates, and DMS Golds with 180/180 spring rates (after fooling with 225/180). The lower spring rate had more body roll, but handled a LOT better. The same is true of the GT. There is some body roll when you pitch the car hard into a corner, but that is, truth to tell, not my driving style. When I turn in, gradually feeding throttle and steering out of the corner, nothing but a nice, carved line. I was even blown away by the handling of a base Outback. Man, am I pleased with this car. Obviously, this is my opinion, and that of others my vary. Kevin

[MtnSub]

Leg Fan and B4 make some good points about "average" drivers need max safety as much or more than tech trained drivers. With Subaru setting expectations by using Porsche & BMW comparos, joe average could over drive what everyone seems to say are terrible tires for a performance sedan/wagon with 250 torque. Terrible tires are a problem on any car, but as B4/Leg Fan point out, problem is exagerated in a very powerful, smooth car. I couldn't agree more that there are many more hours of fun to be had with great handling than with in-line speed and raw power. This has become more of a handling board than Leg GT/Sti discussion, but I think the message is clear that advanced handling performance is critical to "reason for being" for any future Sti Leg. I will be replacing stock wheels and tires first week and wait to see how I feel about suspension upgrade, but it sounds like majority of enthusiasts want a stiffer suspension. I am sure upgrade kits are on horizon.

[Opie]

New member here and didn't want to read all 9 pages but this is what I have "heard" about the "Legacy STi": Late 2005 as a 2006 model, Twin-Turbo H6 producing 350HP, upgraded suspension, STi specific wheels, tires, front and rear bumpers and rear spoiler. Priced low to mid 40's That being said I have not seen any literature to prove this, it is only the information I have been told. For reference, I manage the [url]www.SubaruChallenge.com[/url] website for Subaru.

[waflowers]

Hey Opie, glad you finally decided to drop in here. Opie is also a SouthEast forum moderator on NASIOC and a mighty nice guy. Opie, you need to read my thread in "Other Cars" where I talk about tentative plans to replace my Legacy GT with a non-Subaru.

[gtguy]

Low to mid-40s...yow! That's about what I expected for what would be a Q-ship. Spendy, though I think some more marketing work will be necessary before the world is ready for a $40K Scooby. Kevin