waflowers Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 [quote name='apexjapan']An STi-ized Legacy has the potential to far outdo both of their combined sales if they keep the day to day comfort reasonable while providing enough performance to keep enthusiasts happy. And it's appearance is both classy and low-key enough that the addition of some sportier rubber and subtle spoilers won't give the game away to the cops or the wife. [/quote] Agree 100%. This is why I chose not to buy a WRX STi. Paul, what you've described perfectly matches my hopes/dreams for the rumored "Big Boy". I don't want 6-cyl cranking out 350bhp; give me 270-280, excellent sport handling, sticky rubber (although I can always supply that myself), awesome braking, true sport seating, etc. and I'll have an ear-to-ear grin whether commuting or on the autocross course. P.S. I know I'm responding to rather old messages, but I've been gone for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I too have looked at the STi WRX but wanted something a little less main stream as in other Scoobies on the road. The STi WRX for me is a bit in yr face where the STi GT is styled a lot better and is a lot less racey looking, but has a lot more BFYB and thats what Im looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Any info on if Scooby are going to bring out WRC blue on any of the legacy/liberties ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 [quote name='Dr. Zevil']Perhaps you didn't get the memo... BUGEYES RULE![/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I would pay 33-34k for a TRUE STI Legacy w/o thinking twice about it. I like my GT, but it is not a true B4 and I would rather buy a real STI Leg and not have to build it myself anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacG5 Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Some interesting news on this site. Hope the link works. [url]http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/roadtests/0306scc_legacy[/url] Huh? I say, Pardon? :?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waflowers Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 MacG5, you need to fix the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waflowers Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Also look at who wrote the article!?!?!? Available here in 2005? Is this the "Big Boy" I've spoken of (that was rumored to me)? It may be too little, too late for me though. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tide Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Im actually worried specb and nav will be options next year. Given 3-4k for each option, that would make a Legacy for around 37k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mines Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Sbec-B better come as an option like the Mini cooper works package or there will be many angry GT owners.... like me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waflowers Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 [quote name='Mines']Sbec-B better come as an option like the Mini cooper works package or there will be many angry GT owners.... like me[/quote] Seriously, why would you be angry? There is always something better coming. You can choose anytime to buy or wait forever (as I seem to have done) for the next, great car. Or you can buy earlier and enjoy what you have. You are enjoying it, aren't you? And if it does show uo on these shores I can always say: "I told you so!" :lol: -- Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 And me also!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 The Big Boy may be something fantastic, but I fear its like the Big Bang theory, its going to happen again but why, hmm who knows........ Waflowers, if you have any info, would love to hear it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Outback has the “LL Bean”, Legacy could have the Sti or GT/Ltd NIKE edition with all the extra goodies. If existing Leg GT meets sales targets and Subaru wanted to gen up-market image and price point, the car below could be built from Subaru”s parts bins today. For those of us that are going to buy Leg GT in the next couple months, I hope dealers can offer us Subaru engineered upgrade kits for suspension etc., next year. If/When Subaru intros Sti Leg GT, my wish list looks like: I hope they do not tart it up and make minimal exterior changes. No WRX rally look. No wings or racer rocker panels, maybe unique color offerings. Consider slightly enlarged, black out, no logo grill, with small Sti badge in lower grill corner. Keep scoop same. Lighter, 7.5-8 wheels with 225/17/45 “great” all weather tires and colored brake rotor grabbers. Slightly more power, 275-280 ft lb., 5MT ok, not sure I need 6MT. Short shifter , slightly stiffer suspension, NOT lowered. A car for real roads and driveways. Even better sport seats, manual lumbar is fine. Improved front armrest and rear(wagon) armrest std. A few subtle Sti interior logos in blue or gray and Sti door sills. (ala M3) Upgraded sound system. Add auto up/down windows all around. Found in lesser cars. Add roof console buttons for garage door openers. Found in lesser cars. Subtle, but quite unique, all the up-market expected amenities and more performance than cars twice the cost. Not asking for anything that is production costly. Let Subaru enjoy some extra $ margin. At $34-35K USD, the car would have a limited mkt from Subaru customer base, but BMW 3xi customers and Audi A4S fans would flock to Subaru, IMO. If delivered in a subtle, but mkt buzz worthy package, a Sti Legacy could have a much broader mkt, with deeper pockets, than the press darling, but low sales WRX Sti. A BMW 325xi wagon, with leather, but no sport package, less of everything inside, out and under hood, with 16 inch paws, is $36.5K.USD. You would need to spend above $45K to get anything close from other companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 [quote name='MtnSub']Outback has the “LL Bean”, Legacy could have the Sti or GT/Ltd NIKE edition with all the extra goodies. If existing Leg GT meets sales targets and Subaru wanted to gen up-market image and price point, the car below could be built from Subaru”s parts bins today. For those of us that are going to buy Leg GT in the next couple months, I hope dealers can offer us Subaru engineered upgrade kits for suspension etc., next year. If/When Subaru intros Sti Leg GT, my wish list looks like: I hope they do not tart it up and make minimal exterior changes. No WRX rally look. No wings or racer rocker panels, maybe unique color offerings. Consider slightly enlarged, black out, no logo grill, with small Sti badge in lower grill corner. Keep scoop same. Lighter, 7.5-8 wheels with 225/17/45 “great” all weather tires and colored brake rotor grabbers. Slightly more power, 275-280 ft lb., 5MT ok, not sure I need 6MT. Short shifter , slightly stiffer suspension, NOT lowered. A car for real roads and driveways. Even better sport seats, manual lumbar is fine. Improved front armrest and rear(wagon) armrest std. A few subtle Sti interior logos in blue or gray and Sti door sills. (ala M3) Upgraded sound system. Add auto up/down windows all around. Found in lesser cars. Add roof console buttons for garage door openers. Found in lesser cars. Subtle, but quite unique, all the up-market expected amenities and more performance than cars twice the cost. Not asking for anything that is production costly. Let Subaru enjoy some extra $ margin. At $34-35K USD, the car would have a limited mkt from Subaru customer base, but BMW 3xi customers and Audi A4S fans would flock to Subaru, IMO. If delivered in a subtle, but mkt buzz worthy package, a Sti Legacy could have a much broader mkt, with deeper pockets, than the press darling, but low sales WRX Sti. A BMW 325xi wagon, with leather, but no sport package, less of everything inside, out and under hood, with 16 inch paws, is $36.5K.USD. You would need to spend above $45K to get anything close from other companies.[/quote] Welcome to rationality, and one of the rare STi Legacy posts I have read. This is probably very close to what form the car (if it is in fact not vaporware) will take, I rather imagine, all easily accomplished with existing bits from the FHI parts bin. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I would also add a stiffer suspension and thicker sway bars too. Actuly they should not wait for the STI verision for that. The GT needs these desperatetly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 [quote name='B4_Maniac']I would also add a stiffer suspension and thicker sway bars too. Actuly they should not wait for the STI verision for that. The GT needs these desperatetly.[/quote] Desperately? Perhaps you'd like to expand on this for us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Yeah DM. The Subaru parts rep for my region and I were discussing this at length when I got the car. Plus, with recent experiences in the GT the current springs are NOT set up for performance driveing. The performance potential of this car is being stiffled by the tires and the lack of a stiffer springs and larger anit-roll bars. I have never driven a car with this much power with such a complient suspension set up. It realy forces you to back down off of turns and keep your fun on straight line. I would even say the stock STI springs should have been the LEAST they put in this car. But, they wanted to tune it for the middle market and keep the ride soft on the highway. I disagree. Some one that realy does not know how to handle themselves in a sticky situation will find them selves in a bad way if they over power a turn in this car with the stock set up. The engine demands stiffer bits and stickier tires. PERIOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Remember, please, that stiffer doesn't automatically equal better. Part of the attention paid to weight reduction was precisely so that the car could not be so stiffly sprung, and yet still handle well. Reports at the Subaru ride and drive were glowing, particularly about the handling and steering response, and those people were on a track, at speeds north of 100 mph. I would think that if the GT desperately needed stiffer suspension and thicker strut bars, those people (from auto-x and track whores to an experienced rally driver) would have noticed, and commented upon it. Subarus have always demanded smoothness, and it appears that the new GT is no exception. I think that perceptions of the car will be all over the map. When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft. Others were saying it was a great handler, and very neutral. It all depends upon your driving style. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I am really interested to hear what you think about the suspension setup on the GT once you drive it Kevin. I too have not driven it, but it will be interesting to hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 [quote name='gtguy']Remember, please, that stiffer doesn't automatically equal better. Part of the attention paid to weight reduction was precisely so that the car could not be so stiffly sprung, and yet still handle well. Reports at the Subaru ride and drive were glowing, particularly about the handling and steering response, and those people were on a track, at speeds north of 100 mph. I would think that if the GT desperately needed stiffer suspension and thicker strut bars, those people (from auto-x and track whores to an experienced rally driver) would have noticed, and commented upon it. Subarus have always demanded smoothness, and it appears that the new GT is no exception. I think that perceptions of the car will be all over the map. When the WRX came out, some people were saying that it understeered and was too soft. Others were saying it was a great handler, and very neutral. It all depends upon your driving style. Kevin[/quote] I disagree. I belive the actual suspension in the car is great. Double wishbone up front and anti-squat multilink in the back is an awsome combination. Its the springs and the tires that I belive are the bits that need attention. But, I think the STI's springs would have done this car justice in provideing the perfect ballance between performance stiffness and comfort. Not as raw and viseral as the EVO 8's but fine for a dailey comuter/driver. I think the springs would have translated well to the Legacy and provided the performance it DESERVES. I have no gripes with the stearing or the actual suspension design/geometry. But, I do like my curves and I don't like backing down from a highway off ramp. Wich this current spring/tires set up will force you to do. It demands tweeking. The RX8 and the WRX STI both have perfromance springs that do not sacrifce comfort or perfromance driveing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRXTom Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I have commented on this before and after 2300 kms on the GT wagon I have gone back and forth on the suspension tuning. The install of the Rotas / Kuhmo MXs that I had sitting in my garage certainly helped cornering grip but I'm with B4_Maniac on this one. Granted, my benchmark is quite high given that I had the STi suspension added to my previous WRX wagon. B4_Maniac, if you add good rubber you won't need to back off nearly as much in the turns...trust me. For a family wagon, the GT performs very well. The power output, brakes, steering, transmission are all very good to excellent. After doing some fairly aggressive driving in the twisties (ones that I am intimately familiar with the stock WRX wagon and STi's wagon) it would appear that the suspension is too soft...by how much I haven't decided yet since I want to retain some civility in the ride quality. The level of compliance allows the car to be absorb bumps and irregularities very well while maintaining a sporty ride quality but, for me, it is too far to the comfort side of neutral. Even in city driving, bumps will cause the car to pitch and roll somewhat, not much but noticeable, and during highway driving the degree to which the suspension compresses when on larger swells surprised me. I would be shocked if the USDM suspension tuning is the same as the one that Paul (ApexJapan) raves about. He mentioned in a post that he thought the spring rates were different. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Note to B4-Maniac, I did list “slightly stiffer suspension” in my list, but did not make my very long post longer by specifying springs and sway bars. I also listed wider (225), more aggressive tires that would help handling/braking and create more road feel, some would say make suspension feel more stiff. I was probably off on my mentioned price point of $34k to $35k USD. Given current price of Leg GT/Ltd, with 5MT at $29,600 and AMT at $31,400, and given the list of parts from existing parts bin required to produce Sti Leg, I think Subaru could increase profit margin on a Sti model and still offer cars at $32,200K MT and $33,400 AMT. Mkt for such a car is broader with AMT Sportshift option. Anything close to this price point is a market beater. The Leg GT as outlined in my previous post would offer an experience much closer to a fully loaded M3 or S4, at a price point below a base 325xi BMW, without leather. Audi, BMW & Volvo-T5 customers will be massing at Subaru dealers. Regarding discussion over “stiffer suspension”, even with more drive time experience there will likely be personal expectation differences on feel and handling. I think an Sti model could have slightly stiffer suspension and the standard GT models could stay with existing suspension set-up, with a factory engineered upgrade package of springs and sway bars offered. This allows those that want the compromise/benefits or just like the edgey feel of a really stiff suspension can have it on a great car that costs $26K USD for base GT. Personal opinion on any factory suspension upgrades, I would NOT want to see Leg GT LOWERED. Boxer engine placement and car cg is well designed and any lower will make car front overhang scrape on bumps and driveways. Keep car for real streets and daily driving. Leave lowering for track guys to do after-market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRXTom Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 [quote]I think an Sti model could have slightly stiffer suspension and the standard GT models could stay with existing suspension set-up[/quote] Agreed. This would make marketing sense. The demands of the marketpplace and my personal requirements don't always line up...unfortunately :) . Subaru needs to sell cars and stiff suspensions in family cars are likely a tough sell here. A factory upgrade path for the GT would be an option I would support. By the way, I would purchase the STi version you describe...in wagon format of course. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 [quote name='MtnSub']Personal opinion on any factory suspension upgrades, I would NOT want to see Leg GT LOWERED. Boxer engine placement and car cg is well designed and any lower will make car front overhang scrape on bumps and driveways. Keep car for real streets and daily driving. Leave lowering for track guys to do after-market.[/quote] I'm lowering mine just in spite. Well not really, but I do plan on lowering my car, as are many (potential) Legacy owners. Maybe you meant you didn't want to see them SLAMMED. I won't be doing that. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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