Sub-attraction Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 [quote name='gtguy'][quote name='agctr']I think if STi were to bring out a warmed up edition of the GT, Im more than sure it would sell well. [/quote] I don't think that it would, if you'll allow me to disagree. People are carping about the cost of the GT Limited as being too high, and assuredly, an STi Legacy would be more expensive than a Limited. Traditionally, STi upgrades involve braking and handling, with minor power upgrades. Two notable recent exceptions are the WRX STi and the Forester STi in the JDM market. But the STi is $32K, and it is definitely NOT selling all that well. It's tanking, as a matter of fact. I would figure an STi Legacy to need about a $33-$34 base price tag to be reasonably profitable. I just can't see anyone buying one at that price, particularly considering the STi fondness for manual transmissions, something that would go over like a lead balloon in the USDM, where the bulk of Legacies sold will be with the autobox. Mind you, I'd love to be wrong. :D Kevin[/quote] I think you are right about the mass USDM market not ready to snap up a full blown STI Legacy. There are a few enthusiasts and those in the know who would relish such a vehicle and overlook the cost. Maybe a better marketing approach for SOA would be to offer STI packages available on the GT which could allow the buyer to pick and choose, building the car up to match their purse strings. Some may only be interested in the appearance and not care about performance mods (gasp!), so an STI appearance package including wheels, lip spoiler, WRB etc could be chosen. Those interested in performance over looks could opt for a STi performance package including increased HP, brakes, suspension bits, etc. Everyone has different Needs and Desires, give them the options to make it come true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I'm down with you. STi packages work for me. But it's gotta be more than a short throw shifter and a different shift knob :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolbluelb Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 [quote]Maybe a better marketing approach for SOA would be to offer STI packages available on the GT which could allow the buyer to pick and choose, building the car up to match their purse strings.[/quote] This plan sounds similar to what Dodge has done with their SRT division (formerly PVO), most specifically for the SRT-4. Aftermarket parts can be ordered directly from Dodge and/or installed by dealers. Staged kits for the engine are also available (Stage I and Stage II are available, Stage III will preposedly have 300/300 to the wheels). A similar strategy by Subaru would certainly be welcomed by US purchasers, and would certainly be a way to direct only those added performance items to individuals interested in purchasing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I discussed that a while back, but I'm definitely game for it as well. I'd rather have factory parts if possible. I think the Legacy GT in itself will be rather good and minor tweaks would probably just make it astoundingly great beyond the likely fantanstic. Something on the side of Brakes, Suspension I & II, a single slight Power stage (perhaps something like the Prodrive packages, but something that ACTUALLY performs how it's supposed to), those being additional to the the current 'STi Package'. Give it a little time, voice your opinions directly to Subaru, and I think they will listen. I personally don't think a full STi version is necessary, but I could be wrong. I doubt it would debut at anything less than $35k though unfortuantely out of the range of most, even if it is still a screaming bargain in comparison to the M3 and S4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolbluelb Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 All indications are that the USDM Legacy will be an awesome performance value. Not to be changing the subject, but do we have a schedule of when they will be touring the states (prior to arrival at the dealerships)? I would not mind driving to Tampa to see the Leg in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hmm, my sister is going to Phili early next month. Maybe I should go along and take a stop across the river. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I think everyone on the 3rd page has some fantastic and very valid points. The GT is a fantastic car but to go out and splash out on non genuine parts could seriously damage the re-sale of the vehicle. This is where the current STi versions of the WRX retain better value over the standard WRX. If the S401 is anything to go by, the re-sale on that vehicle would be a lot higher than the B4 for instance. To quote Sube, to have a powerup package from Prodrive backed by STi would be a fantastic idea, giving not only the owner peace of mind but giving yr GT STi enhanced vehicle more street cred ! P.S If we are wanting Subaru to hear our voices, where could we send our emails to ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Here is what I would do, personally, from within Subaru/STi to create an affordable Legacy STi for America. Re-tune the GT 2.5 for a more aggressive high-rpm profile and about 270hp, either by extending the 250ft/lbs higher in the rpm range, and/or raising torque to 260-270ft/lbs. Give it a bit better breathing exhaust system with more of a presence than the stock. Ship with 17 or 18-inch wheels that have 225 series RE-01 level rubber. Something close to the grip of the 070s but without the trade-offs in wet traction. The higher performance 050s in a wider section would be fantastic. Use the lower STi springs with the B-spec dampers. Off the shelf parts keeps costs low, and these two would provide a great ride/performance tradeoff, one that scores higher on the comfort scale than the current USDM STi, but still is sporty enough to hang with STi/Evo's. Put in the JDM or USDM STi seats with a lower seat rail that maintains the current lowest height of the JDM standard seat, or perhaps a bit lower. Use solid pillowball stabilizer links in the rear in conjunction with the stabilizer bars from the current Spec B. Parts-bin in the 6-speed from the Forester STi in Japan with it's longer gearing, and the front/rear Brembo brakes. And add in the rear pillow-ball linkage from STi. With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP. I know everybody wants to hear some big hp numbers, but if it was released at those levels, it would have enough power to overpower 225 series sticky rubber if is below the level of 070's. It would be quick enough to compete with all of the fast sedans below the 60-70k level, and would be reliable even on American gas. It may even be able to keep at adequete gas mileage numbers as well. Cheers, Paul Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtguy Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 [quote name='ha-evolution']Whoops - should have clarified that I was talking about the poor sales comment you made.[/quote] I don't have any hard and fast evidence, but you can get an STi for near invoice right now, and dealers have plenty of them sitting on their lots. Those two things wouldn't be happening if the car was doing as well as Subaru had hoped. I will admit to possibly being wrong, but if the car was doing well, you wouldn't see dealin' days on STis. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 That's all I've heard is anecdotal evidence but I haven't seen any hard number for STi or Evo sales. I don't want to speculate either way but you could be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 [quote name='apexjapan']With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP. [/quote] I would definately be in line for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolbluelb Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote name='ha-evolution'][quote name='apexjapan']With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP. [/quote] I would definately be in line for one.[/quote] I agree an STi Legacy in the $34k range would be a wonderful automobile; but valid points have been made that demand for such a car would be extremely limited in the US at present. I have seen newspaper ads for both Evos and STi's for $500.00 or so over invoice. To me, this is proof that the buying American public has failed to put their money where the Auto Magazine Industry's mouth is... It irks me even more when I think that cars like the new GTO will actually sell... :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 That's because the STi and Evo both compromise day to day driving far too much for the general public without having the looks to back up the weekend driving needs. And the fact that they look so extroverted, but not sexy, does not help either. An STi-ized Legacy has the potential to far outdo both of their combined sales if they keep the day to day comfort reasonable while providing enough performance to keep enthusiasts happy. And it's appearance is both classy and low-key enough that the addition of some sportier rubber and subtle spoilers won't give the game away to the cops or the wife. Cheers, Paul Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 That's because they made the GTO plush and it has a V8. Now that's a little simplified, but I don't see it too far off the mark. A lot of Americans like displacement (whatever the sacrifice) and they like to be coddled. I don't think the EVO and STi hit those marks as well because a lot of people just don't understand them or they don't meet many people's criteria. I will note that I have heard countless times how the wing along was a dealbreaker! There's a lot of image dealings going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolbluelb Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I will admit that the car I owned in college was a 5.0 Mustang. While very quick in a straight line, it did not come close to my VTEC Prelude (the car that replaced it) in the "fun to drive" category. While I purchased the Honda to be a more economical car, I quickly learned that there was much more to enjoying a driving experience than going fast in a straight line. I feel that, as the F & F generation matures and makes a bit more cash, we will see even more market for cars like the STi and Evo. All reviews that I have seen on the Legacy point to it being an even more complete package than any of the other cars I have owned (plus it is big enough to carry around my family). I can not wait to see/drive one myself. :!: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tide Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 I think we all have some good points here, so how about some marketing 101 by Chad: :D :D The Impreza STi is not about selling a high margin car and making bucks. Its about selling RS's and WRX's. Most of those who [i]want[/i] the STi can't afford it, and thus buy the same line. Just as the WRC car is built to sell STi's, thus the line progresses. The question then is would a Legacy STi push more GT's out the door? The Legacy is already Subaru's #1 seller, and the new one will push that threshold even more. I think one on par with an M3 would. Think of all the car articles that would praise this cheaper, faster, everyman's M3. How much would that inspire sales of the GT? A lot I think. Just IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPower Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 [quote name='apexjapan']Here is what I would do, personally, from within Subaru/STi to create an affordable Legacy STi for America. Re-tune the GT 2.5 for a more aggressive high-rpm profile and about 270hp, either by extending the 250ft/lbs higher in the rpm range, and/or raising torque to 260-270ft/lbs. Give it a bit better breathing exhaust system with more of a presence than the stock. Ship with 17 or 18-inch wheels that have 225 series RE-01 level rubber. Something close to the grip of the 070s but without the trade-offs in wet traction. The higher performance 050s in a wider section would be fantastic. Use the lower STi springs with the B-spec dampers. Off the shelf parts keeps costs low, and these two would provide a great ride/performance tradeoff, one that scores higher on the comfort scale than the current USDM STi, but still is sporty enough to hang with STi/Evo's. Put in the JDM or USDM STi seats with a lower seat rail that maintains the current lowest height of the JDM standard seat, or perhaps a bit lower. Use solid pillowball stabilizer links in the rear in conjunction with the stabilizer bars from the current Spec B. Parts-bin in the 6-speed from the Forester STi in Japan with it's longer gearing, and the front/rear Brembo brakes. And add in the rear pillow-ball linkage from STi. With all of that added on top of a base GT price, I think Subaru could produce a Legacy STi that would give a USDM STi owner the shakes in the corners and straights, and keep the price under $34K MSRP. I know everybody wants to hear some big hp numbers, but if it was released at those levels, it would have enough power to overpower 225 series sticky rubber if is below the level of 070's. It would be quick enough to compete with all of the fast sedans below the 60-70k level, and would be reliable even on American gas. It may even be able to keep at adequete gas mileage numbers as well. Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] All excellent, but why not just use the US STi engine? There would be no additional R&D needed to get it right, and the increased volume reduces cost. Also, for the US market, a 50hp increase may be deemed worth the extra expense whereas 20-30hp can be compensated by simple mods. For seats, what about US width seats with thicker, adjustable side bolsters like the M3 or old Prelude? That would be great for me. Heck, that should be standard on the GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Just curious, why does JPN build all the fantastic STi editions for their own JPDM but not onsell to other countries????. Im not sure if anyone can answer this. Why would FHI have to build an STi just for the USDM ? Why wouldnt Fuji they just build an STi Legacy/Liberty for all countries like they do with the current WRX. Surely there doesnt have to be different mods and updates for each specific country over and above the safety, emission and legal aspects as required by law. This where R&D gets totally out of control. Having one base STi GT model makes more sense to me as it drives down R&D and drives up Bang For Your Buck. For mine, lets argue about what they should have or shouldnt have done once the STi GT hits the showroom floors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 What......... no STi Legacy information yet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kage Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Japanese buyers are notoriously finicky. Manufacturer's have to go to extraordinary lengths to capture Japanese buyers. Keep in mind that in Japan a car is more a toy than a necessity for many people. The competition is fiercer. I think Subaru will likely create a Legacy STi. As you said, it makes a lot of sense. Now that Subaru is beginning to cultivate a performance/premium image in the US, it makes perfect sense to create a halo model for the Legacy. Now the only question is: will it be a no compromises performance stripper like the Impreza STi, or will it be a premium luxo GT more along the lines of a BMW M3 or Audi S4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Found this over at NASIOC: [quote] So far between January and April 2004 they've sold a little over 2000 nationally. Total since introduction last year is close to 6000, minus about 40 cars. If you do the math they've definitely sold more than 360 per month. I believe there's only about 1100 of the '04s left. Anybody who tells you the car wasn't a sales success and is sitting on lots is probably a Mitsubishi salesman. That's as definite as I can get without giving exact figures. Those numbers I posted above are from actually sales and production charts.[/quote] Doesn't sound like the STi's are selling too poorly to me. [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553369[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Since the weather is heating back up, I think they'll start rolling again. There's one left at Gustmans over here, but Dave told me the Doc from Bancroft is looking for one of the same option set (inc. color and wheels.) I'll see if I can clear that one out. Haven't seen any '05 matieral at the local dealer just yet, but already saw an '05 STi in the Crystal Grey/Silver, there's a bunch of nice little interior upgrades for one that really make it nice, like the placement of the DCCD, cup holders, and heck, even a stereo is nice. Yeah, the one in Dave's STi and the Defi gauges are nice too. Troy. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ha-evolution Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 They already had an 05 crystal gray STi at Chilsons and it was sold it on Friday. I didn't get a chance to see it up close but I liked the color from afar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Like this one.. Dorao on Nabisco picked it up friday, Lizarded it Saturday. Now that's a way to break a car in. :cool: [img]http://blue-sun.net/Lizard_2004/Lizard_2004-Images/6.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Some car clubs might be moaning about it raining when they get together (S2000, BMW, etc...), but to me it looks like you guys had perfect Subaru weather. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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