New Heart

[jaylew]

So, I am planning on getting a new SB and refresh the heads as a 20th birthday for my car. That is the high level thought process. I would like to get input from others on the details. I will list wants / needs and update as the peanut gallery chimes in.

Expectations: Stay relatively stock and happy. 250-300 crank HP. Nothing crazy that is beyond the stock numbers these motors see from factory. I wish to have a fun more reliable (I know wrong platform for reliable) daily driver. I am not looking to break the bank (again I know, wrong platform for this thought). $3-4k all said and done. Its a 3 season princess. The moment there is potential for road salt, she gets put in the garage.

 

Shopping list

- Type RA or normal EJ257 short block

- Refreshed heads (send off existing ones to machine shop)

           to what extent, idk. I am all ears for what to do to heads that have 265k on them.

- new head bolts or studs.

          I wouldn't go oversized if I went studs. I am leaning towards head bolts as it doesn't mess with the expected stress/strain of the motor requiring a new hone

- upgraded oil pan and pick up (killer B, IAG, moroso)

- Jmp refreshed VF40 turbo

      let him do his magic to refresh a tired turbo. Not sure how crazy to go given my goals

- stock side feed injectors (send old ones out for clean and checking)

       doesn't require a whole conversion process to top feed with no real benefit given my power level goals

- upgrade fuel pump

         maybe AVO unit or  AEM-50-1215

- Solid turbo inlet pipe

        I like the solid ones over other types but not needed. Just any new inlet pipe even OE is good

- cylinder 4 heating mod

        for reliability. I know it doesn't cool anything down, but just makes the temps more consistent for better tuning

- stock headers

- intercooler

         Likely go some used AVO style. I have had the thought of doing an air-to-water intercooler that still goes in the stock location. Could be a project down the line. I like the idea of consistent intake temps no matter what

- new AVCS gears and oil control valves

        again I want it to be reliable and not worry

- new coil packs

             for reliability sake

- maybe new throttle body

          again reliable and not worry about worn out potentiometer of an old throttle body

- AOS maybe

           this is more for peace of mind but with a pretty stock set up it might be overkill

- fluid damper crank pully

- new coolant/oil heat exchanger

           maybe delete and go just oil cooler. This is a 3 season car

- refresh all fuel lines and evap around the gas tank (it needs to be done regardless)

- maybe the fuel pump wiring upgrade though that can be done at anytime

- STI fuel pressure regulator upgrade

- all rubber hoses new

            already done to the original motor, and will carry over to the new motor

- AFR and Boost Gauge

        I plant to fit them in the cubby of the dash so I don't have to stare at them all the time. Maybe a multi display type gauge so I can add on other parameters down the line and keep it a simple form factor

 

 

 

@JmP6889928 @boxkita @m sprank@tysparks81@Max Capacity@Enlight@Infosecdad@KZJonny@Scottydunno@Code@seanyb505@BoozeRS05@Febreze Mee@Gex@utc_pyro@Underdog@SubOperator@DoctorDaveLGT@solidxsnake

*if I am missing any good possible contributors please tag them so that I can include them in the fun. I was quick to set up this thread so I stop procrastinating and can get to actually planning instead of being all talk with no walk. I would like as much input from you all as possible!*

Thank you ahead of time for any input!

[Enlight]

If you decide against the AOS, I have a bunch of leftover Autobahn88 silicon hoses (black) for the PCV system that I did not use, I will happily donate them to your build . I didn't need them because of my own AOS install.

Maybe GDT Cylinder 4 mod for longevity as well?

[jaylew]

thanks for the input. I had the thought in the past of doing the heating mod...just forgot to add it to the list. Thanks for reminding me! And thank you for the hoses. I have all new OE PCV hoses on the current motor. Roughly 18k miles on them. We'll see how they are doing given how much oil I consume with the current motor (I am assuming its oil circulating through the PCV system from worn rings

[KZJonny]

Sounds like a good plan to me. I can't recall how many miles are on the car now... 260K or so? Just curious regarding the heads. In any case probably best to let the pros tell you, very well may be that all you need is a hone and lash adjustment, but I would at least be considering springs and seals at that mileage. If the seats and guides are still within spec, then just send it.

I'd spend the AOS money on a Fluidampr instead. Appropriate for all power levels, and it's a difference I suspect you will actually feel. Besides, that OE crank pulley / harmonic dampener is trash now anyway, so if you're going to replace it, why not upgrade it a little. (OK... upgrade it a lot...)

I would also at least consider getting the Custom level treatment for the turbo. With all the other 'restoration mods' you're going through if you did that, you are just a downpipe and a tune away from unlocking a smidge more power, and the ridiculous spool that is the lightened components in the JMP CVF40. I wish we'd have gone for a ride in my car at the last ECM. Maybe @Enlight can attest to it. I make no claims that my car is spectacularly fast, or whatever, but that turbo really does make it more fun/ lively to drive. And all of that on stock fueling, no problems at all.

Maybe send out the injectors for a professional cleaning and balance check? Berrymans is great and all, but since you'll have everything apart.... and every place I've seen that offers the service replaces all the o-rings and seals, etc... Probably not a bad idea after all those years of fuel + heat cycling.

New OE turbo inlet or aftermarket? Again, just becuase the old one is probably halfway to shagged from age and no easier time to do it than when the intake is off.

Edited January 23 by KZJonny

[tysparks81]

I would suggest checking Market place for for an ej257 block before buying a new one especially if you are going to be refreshing it anyways.  Money saved from buying a new OEM block will allow you to put money towards forged rods and pistons or even new stock rods and pistons. 

I would also suggest going with ARP headstuds and an OEM headgasket even if staying at conservative levels.  

Agree with KZJonny about the Fluidampr and turbo choices

Upgrade fuel pump is a good option regardless of power level.

I also don't see a turbo inlet on your list and you should add it now if you don't already have one.

[jaylew]

i was hoping to avoid a SB build, even if it is with stock bottom end components. Not really inclined for forged anything at this point since I believe staying stock will more than suffice for my goals (i could be wrong and am willing to be proved otherwise!)

[KZJonny]

36 minutes ago, jaylew said:

i was hoping to avoid a SB build, even if it is with stock bottom end components. Not really inclined for forged anything at this point since I believe staying stock will more than suffice for my goals (i could be wrong and am willing to be proved otherwise!)

Agree with this. Unless you build engines regularly, the tools needed to do it right will eat up any cost difference between buying a short block and trying to make an old one serviceable again.

No need at all for forged internals given the power goals and intended use. Sure, lightened and strengthened stuff is great if you're looking to up the redline and make use of a big turbo, etc... but with a solid tune, or even just OTS Stage 0 tune on stock everything, your plan is good. No need to get into extended warmup times and the reduced lifespan of a 'built' engine.

But, just my humble opinion.

[BoozeRS05]

You have the right idea in my opinion, keep it near stock and enjoy the car around 280whp. I don’t see local regulations and EPA issues going away or getting less restrictive anytime soon. So passing inspections and not becoming absolutely reliant on tuning needs seems like a good idea into the future.

I will say if you’re doing all the fueling stuff I’d maybe consider a fuel pressure gauge too. Also I was able to find a used AVO high flow fuel pump, which is a drop in unit and doesn’t require modding/hacking the OEM pump. They aren’t cheap, but seems like an good fix for me.

[jaylew]

Yeah the whole goal is to continue to enjoy the car for as many miles as possible. The work I have done to the chassis deserves to have a motor to match. I have never known this car to have full stock power or a normal oil consumption rate...somehow with these set backs I have been convinced to stick with the car knowing what it could be haha

[blackobxt]

Man I feel left out, these were basically the standards for my build but this one has less power lol. Goal was to get 200,000mi out of the new setup with reliability over additional power. I’m sitting right at 100,000mi right now and I’m running 18-20psi out of a 16g. Haven’t had any motor problems yet.

[seanyb505]

My most common thoughts:

- moroso pickup and stock pan. Way less $ for something that won't see competition. 

- intercooler?

- tuner can recommend which fuel pump they like

- arp head studs. Drop in solution. 

- "The right stuff" for Subaru gray bond substitute or whatever. Readily available, comes in cheez whiz can for easy application 

- Engine gasket set. Buy for your heads. For reasons related only to availability of rebuildable heads, I used D25 heads for my 2005 car. I bought the gasket set for the 2011 wrx I used heads from. Maybe you can pick and choose which gaskets you need individually, though that gets super time consuming.

 

Thinking about your budget now as my mind goes to "while you're in there" town.

Maybe do a compression and leak down test on the current block. I can see spending $4k on block, turbo, heads, tune and fluid damper. See what you can reuse. 

Edited January 23 by seanyb505

[Febreze Mee]

Costs/Budget

$3000-$4000 is a tight budget. Depending on how firm you are, you may have to forgo some items on the list. I picked up a "dressed" long block for my car from Sunwest Automotive for $3000. Sunwest has a "dressed" long block for you at about $4000.

With reliability being my goal, and my car being a year-round, all conditions, all-terrain vehicle I had for similar performance goals. To be transparent, it costs me $5100 in parts alone (I did all the labor) for a brand new engine, Fluid Dampr, Killer B P/U & baffle, Defi Gauges (Water temp, Oil temp, Oil pressure), a complete oil cooler set up, new OCVs, new hoses, spark plugs/wires, and thermostat. Everything that's listed and isn't aftermarket, is OEM sourced from a very friendly Subaru dealer, or the wholesale Subaru sites. That $5100 does NOT include tax, fluids, gasket/o-ring kit, motor mounts, oil catch can(s) or the $10's of dollars I rounded down just to output a guaranteed minimum that I paid. I reused my injectors and throttle body.

You have a turbo, and two extra cams, so add another $1000 for the long block. You also are rebuilding the turbo, add another $1000 (or whatever @JmP6889928 charges) for a rebuild and associated parts.

 

Parts

I'm not sure how the stock fuel pump holds to a factory engine with factory horsepower goals. If when cleaning up the factory map in tuning stresses the pump, I also ship the idea of the AVO drop-in @BoozeRS05 mentioned.

ARP studs are a nice and proven drop-in unit. 

The factory oil pan (if 2006MY+) does the job you need it to. 2006MY+ have the STi pans with better baffling.

Also as @BoozeRS05 said, it could be beneficial to throw a fuel pressure gauge, in line between the filter and rails. 

I'd recommend having a way to read out oil temp and oil pressure. If the Cobb AP doesn't output that info, plumb it so it does, or add your own gauge(s). It doesn't have to be a Defi single DIN triple gauge cluster, I'm just picky —and picky can add up.

 

I'm excited for you!

Edited January 23 by Febreze Mee

[Enlight]

5 hours ago, KZJonny said:

I would also at least consider getting the Custom level treatment for the turbo. With all the other 'restoration mods' you're going through if you did that, you are just a downpipe and a tune away from unlocking a smidge more power, and the ridiculous spool that is the lightened components in the JMP CVF40. I wish we'd have gone for a ride in my car at the last ECM. Maybe @Enlight can attest to it.

I attest . The response on that thing is pretty instantaneous and peppy. @jaylew I think you would get a kick out of seeing your car respond in that way. But question, did I miss any events that prompted you refreshing your heads? Do any compression and/or leakdown tests? If those look good...

[boxkita]

iag long block $11k

iag short block $4k

iag closed deck short block $5k

aos - why? yer not racing.

arp studs are good idea.

turbo upgrade should  include all hoses connected to it, too.

get the better timing belt kit. there's a link for it.

the killerb oil pickup seems like bling. I had one never needed its robustness. the baffle plate is probably worth it. the oil pan would be a pass until you have damaged the existing one.

fuel pump upgrade along with wiring is good idea. I never did the wiring and had issues at times. granted I was beating on my car hard. ymmv.

cylinder 4 heating mod - why? it changes by 4 degrees. good for dom for restarting his parts but really?

head rebuild should include a thorough inspection & rebuild. have heads fully flyshed to get all grit out. a jmp turbo upgrade plus head refresh will be fun.

 

[SoobyDoobyDoo]

Bumping for sub. Hopefully won’t need this for a while but all good info from people who have been there. Jaylews goals are similar to mine. 
interested in #4 cyl mod as well. Only changes 4*? How much does the temp change affect knock, if at all? Or is this mostly in the tune?

[boxkita]

30 minutes ago, SoobyDoobyDoo said:

Bumping for sub. Hopefully won’t need this for a while but all good info from people who have been there. Jaylews goals are similar to mine. 
interested in #4 cyl mod as well. Only changes 4*? How much does the temp change affect knock, if at all? Or is this mostly in the tune?

Dom dd a big study with graphs and charts showing the improvement. Heat shielding the crossover pipe had a bigger effect than the for sale mod. however money.

Dom claimed a radical improvement and somewhat eliminating knock. ymmv.

its a hack to sort of match what race cars did to remove the heater hoses.

[m sprank]

How many miles on the original engine?  Sometimes, less is more. 

-You can spend money on all the "upgrades", but I bet the stock configuration fits your needs just fine. 

-Studs are nice, but they limit your ability to perform work after the install.  Cant pull a head in car with studs.  Just saying. 

-Pan and pick up are nice, but failures are rare.

-Do not go for a solid intake pipe.  Vibration is your enemy. 

-New AVCS gears, valves and an oil cooler are a great idea. 

-NO AOS.

-Fuel pump not a bad idea, going through the wiring and all the vacuum lines/fuel lines is a good idea. 

-My gut says stick to more of the "what can I do to bring her back to new" rather than "what can I do to blow her up". 

 

[SoobyDoobyDoo]

2 hours ago, boxkita said:

Heat shielding the crossover pipe had a bigger effect than the for sale mod. however money.

Sorry are you referring to the coolant or exhaust manifold crossover pipe? 

Also, solid intake pipe…as in aluminum? Or one of the many silicone ones that are out there (that use something solid as the base)? 

[boxkita]

1 hour ago, SoobyDoobyDoo said:

Sorry are you referring to the coolant or exhaust manifold crossover pipe? 

Also, solid intake pipe…as in aluminum? Or one of the many silicone ones that are out there (that use something solid as the base)? 

@m sprank says stick with up pipe that's flexible. not arguing with that, although mine was the Cobb Inconel version (sr-71 level unobtainium metal) for more than a decade.

The intake piece that partially goes under intake manifold made of silicone with reinforcement from perrin is what I used to replace the stock unit. More than a decade on that without issue.

The getadomtune heater hose addition to the head? that's the snake oil thing. The oem crossover water pipe between the heads? that could use a little cooling help or re-routing.

[KZJonny]

14 hours ago, Enlight said:

But question, did I miss any events that prompted you refreshing your heads? Do any compression and/or leakdown tests? If those look good...

You must have forgotten the part where @jaylew had to drop to rear of the whole pack of us going over the hills becuase he couldn't figure out how to turn of the secret agent man smokescreen his car was making. 

I would guess guess that a compression test would register a little low considering the likley state of the rings in that engine, but who knows? It doesn't take long to do one anyway... Be kinda fun to see the numbers. Take bets on who guesses closest? Price is Right rules, whoever gets closest without going over.

[Code]

Great info in here. My mod path was focused on significantly different goals so  I don’t have anything to contribute that our resident experts haven’t already covered.  

[jaylew]

14 hours ago, seanyb505 said:

My most common thoughts:

- moroso pickup and stock pan. Way less $ for something that won't see competition. 

- intercooler?

- tuner can recommend which fuel pump they like

- arp head studs. Drop in solution. 

- "The right stuff" for Subaru gray bond substitute or whatever. Readily available, comes in cheez whiz can for easy application 

- Engine gasket set. Buy for your heads. For reasons related only to availability of rebuildable heads, I used D25 heads for my 2005 car. I bought the gasket set for the 2011 wrx I used heads from. Maybe you can pick and choose which gaskets you need individually, though that gets super time consuming.

 

Thinking about your budget now as my mind goes to "while you're in there" town.

Maybe do a compression and leak down test on the current block. I can see spending $4k on block, turbo, heads, tune and fluid damper. See what you can reuse. 

@seanyb505 There will be plenty of "while I am in there" stuff I am sure. If I were a betting man (which I am not) my budget will likely go over by $500-$1000. For science reasons, I plan to do a compression/leak down before I fire up the parts cannon. Who knows, could throw this whole plan up in the air. I'll have to see what kind of shape my current heads are even in before I worry about rebuilding the existing ones or looking elsewhere

 

15 hours ago, blackobxt said:

Man I feel left out, these were basically the standards for my build but this one has less power lol. Goal was to get 200,000mi out of the new setup with reliability over additional power. I’m sitting right at 100,000mi right now and I’m running 18-20psi out of a 16g. Haven’t had any motor problems yet.

@blackobxt my bad. Like I said, I was quickly throwing this together to just get it going so I am not doing all my deliberating the night I start placing parts orders. It was a shotgun of people tagging so bound to still be missing people that would be good contributors haha

14 hours ago, Enlight said:

I attest . The response on that thing is pretty instantaneous and peppy. @jaylew I think you would get a kick out of seeing your car respond in that way. But question, did I miss any events that prompted you refreshing your heads? Do any compression and/or leakdown tests? If those look good...

@Enlight The engineer in me has been wanting to do the compression/leak down for the longest time. The scarredy cat in me has been putting it off for 5 years. Easier to stick my head in the ground and just keep adding oil every 300 miles. Its gotten me by for the past 60k miles haha

 

12 hours ago, m sprank said:

How many miles on the original engine?  Sometimes, less is more. 

-You can spend money on all the "upgrades", but I bet the stock configuration fits your needs just fine. 

-Studs are nice, but they limit your ability to perform work after the install.  Cant pull a head in car with studs.  Just saying. 

-Pan and pick up are nice, but failures are rare.

-Do not go for a solid intake pipe.  Vibration is your enemy. 

-New AVCS gears, valves and an oil cooler are a great idea. 

-NO AOS.

-Fuel pump not a bad idea, going through the wiring and all the vacuum lines/fuel lines is a good idea. 

-My gut says stick to more of the "what can I do to bring her back to new" rather than "what can I do to blow her up". 

 

@m sprank 265k on original motor. I agree on the studs argument. For what I am doing, bolts will be a good limiting factor for me to not get the itch to get greedy on power numbers once I feel a fully fresh motor haha. Yeah the more I think about it the AOS is likely overkill for a stock motor. I want to do it right, so the "bring it back to new" mentality is definitely there

8 hours ago, boxkita said:

@m sprank says stick with up pipe that's flexible. not arguing with that, although mine was the Cobb Inconel version (sr-71 level unobtainium metal) for more than a decade.

The intake piece that partially goes under intake manifold made of silicone with reinforcement from perrin is what I used to replace the stock unit. More than a decade on that without issue.

The getadomtune heater hose addition to the head? that's the snake oil thing. The oem crossover water pipe between the heads? that could use a little cooling help or re-routing.

@boxkita about 20k miles ago, when I had the motor out for new clutch, I replaced all vacuum lines, pcv lines, fuel lines, and coolant lines (including the hard pipe that crosses over top the header). All coolant lines that run anywhere near the exhaust is covered now in a heat protective wrap. Just to stop the rubber from getting brittle too quick, and prevent that crossover pipe from classically rusting out from all the heat cycling. All of this will carry over to the new motor given the young age of the components used.

2 minutes ago, KZJonny said:

You must have forgotten the part where @jaylew had to drop to rear of the whole pack of us going over the hills becuase he couldn't figure out how to turn of the secret agent man smokescreen his car was making. 

I would guess guess that a compression test would register a little low considering the likley state of the rings in that engine, but who knows? It doesn't take long to do one anyway... Be kinda fun to see the numbers. Take bets on who guesses closest? Price is Right rules, whoever gets closest without going over.

@KZJonny You can't be giving away my secrets! I am one of the few LGT's that can roll coal haha

 

 

 

Thank you everyone for the input thus far. I have updated my first post to reflect some of the feedback!

[KZJonny]

21 hours ago, jaylew said:

- upgrade fuel pump? Which idk

FWIW - Brian at Cryotune told me to use the AEM unit (340L I believe?) 

    AEM-50-1215 AEM Electronics 340lph E85 High Flow In-Tank Fuel Pump

Copied from my invoice.... It was drop-in and an easy install overall. Don't forget the double o-ring.

 

Plenty of options out there I am sure, and people who will back them up. I just do have some faith in the guys like Cryo and Tuning Alliance when they say they like one over the others. I assume they've seen more of these things come and go than most of us on here. 'Cept maybe Mike. Brian leans towards COBB stuff, since they're linked up through the AP tuning thing, and there were a few things I chose to get through other vetted sources along the way because I was feeling crusty about my recently purchased AP being half useless shortly after shelling out good money on it. Hah!

Edited January 24 by KZJonny

[jaylew]

Yeah, just because of regulation changes hindering COBB and alike, I will try to stick to open source

[Max Capacity]

I thought you knew to follow my build. I think you know to see my "click here" link. I ran that ej257 on stock fueling tuned on ESP's dyno at 21psi with the vf52. The stock injectors had over 306,000 miles when I sold the wagon.

 

It really is that easy. The ej257 was still great some 150,000+ miles later.