Cadillac ATS Brembo Caliper Upgrade for your Subaru

[Phillip J. Fry]

Everyone gets what you are saying. It's not ideal, even if you have the right wheels to clear. However, neither are the stock brakes.

 

I'm actually interested to see more real world feedback from people who are trying new things instead of lobbing insults from the sidelines. I'm really not sure why you would look forward to any results, if you're not interested in the premise

 

Doing a quick search of your posts, you seem to get into it in just about every thread you post in. Reminds me of an old saying: If you meet one a'hole in the morning, you met an a'hole. If you meet a'holes all day, the a'hole is you.

 

easy to think that when its hard to dispute.

 

some examples of common wrong here? cobb uppipe...stock has a flex joint. cobb does not. stock has heat shields. cobb does not. the cheap shoppers here buy cobb for the price. me? after leaks from 2 of cobbs pipes and after the stock split at the seem i now have a ceramic coated grimmspeed. you have any idea why a team of engineers at a major corporation would use a flex joint??? yeah. 99% of the people here dont.

 

hawk hps pads? no. they are NOT as good as stoptechs. but people buy hps for what? lower dust?

 

how about super soft sidewalls of the dws tires then people putting on coilovers. 0* toe? really? static toe is stationary and toe is different when you are driving.

 

there is a reason why there is "average" intelligence. it allows some of us to be above or below.

 

you are free any time to say im wrong and offer reasons. i doubt you will.

 

as i stated previously. please feel free to keep on this project. im curious as well. i know the fun in trial and errors. sometimes you have to pull out the tape measure and do it 3 times then cut.

 

from what ive seen so far...need bigger wheels, spacers, with the new wheels one needs tires. maybe need longer wheel studs. still need rotors and pads, brackets. this "cheap" brake upgrade is anything but.

 

18" rpf1 with new tires? 2k+. all the brake parts required? 1k? your time? labor? for 3k id rather try a bbk already developed. dba 5k are 300 each.

 

if its doable, which anything is, it would be nice to know.

 

keep in mind...are they heavier? will the rotors be heavier? wheels? tires? you will be changing your suspension dynamics with the increased sprung weight. steering will be heavier. car will feel more sluggish.

 

this is excluding all the other factors on the parts and the stress they may or may not see.

 

btw...is what i am being accused of any different than many of you running to the 2.5i section and declaring it a waste of time to mod?

 

good luck with all of this though. im just as curious.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Phillip J. Fry

[battelready]

easy to think that when its hard to dispute.

 

some examples of common wrong here? cobb uppipe...stock has a flex joint. cobb does not. stock has heat shields. cobb does not. the cheap shoppers here buy cobb for the price. me? after leaks from 2 of cobbs pipes and after the stock split at the seem i now have a ceramic coated grimmspeed. you have any idea why a team of engineers at a major corporation would use a flex joint??? yeah. 99% of the people here dont.

 

hawk hps pads? no. they are NOT as good as stoptechs. but people buy hps for what? lower dust?

 

how about super soft sidewalls of the dws tires then people putting on coilovers. 0* toe? really? static toe is stationary and toe is different when you are driving.

 

there is a reason why there is "average" intelligence. it allows some of us to be above or below.

 

you are free any time to say im wrong and offer reasons. i doubt you will.

 

as i stated previously. please feel free to keep on this project. im curious as well. i know the fun in trial and errors. sometimes you have to pull out the tape measure and do it 3 times then cut.

 

from what ive seen so far...need bigger wheels, spacers, with the new wheels one needs tires. maybe need longer wheel studs. still need rotors and pads, brackets. this "cheap" brake upgrade is anything but.

 

18" rpf1 with new tires? 2k+. all the brake parts required? 1k? your time? labor? for 3k id rather try a bbk already developed. dba 5k are 300 each.

 

if its doable, which anything is, it would be nice to know.

 

keep in mind...are they heavier? will the rotors be heavier? wheels? tires? you will be changing your suspension dynamics with the increased sprung weight. steering will be heavier. car will feel more sluggish.

 

this is excluding all the other factors on the parts and the stress they may or may not see.

 

btw...is what i am being accused of any different than many of you running to the 2.5i section and declaring it a waste of time to mod?

 

good luck with all of this though. im just as curious.

 

This thread was started to tell people that there is a cheaper alternative to the sti brembos. A person looking at brembos in the first place should have taken the price and everything else into consideration. This in no way is a stock replacement .

[dieselsquid]

Sound like some Bubbleheads I know. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.

How did you know? Veteran Navy submariner. SSBN 740 USS Rhode island

 

-Squid

[Smithcraft]

Plus, if you installing Brembos, don't you have to change the wheels the clear the calipers anyway?

 

SC

[derp]

its painfully obvious none of you are engineers.

 

It's painfully obvious that you have a deceased porcupine lodged in your rectum.

[Rhitter]

 

I went ahead and bolded your quote to point out how what you call "your facts" turns into classic psychological projection. There's no need to attack other's self-confidence based on a brake upgrade.

 

To be quite blunt, I think it's you who lack the confidence, intellect, and overall demeanor to have a productive civil discussion. Maybe you're looking for recognition that you haven't received in life? Who knows. You won't find it here, with an attitude like that.

 

Just speaking from experience when I replaced my puny Outback brakes with LGT brakes my love life got significantly better. I had more sexual encounters with more partners, and finally, ended up getting engaged. I can't even imagine what would have happened if I had gone to a true BBK.

 

I think he is on to something. Bitches love BBK's.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Rhitter

[SCASEYS]

here

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/wilwood-4-pot-caliper-kit-134462p2.html?highlight=wilwood

[THE RZA]

and PJF wonders why the gypsy wouldn't bang him.

[LatentWagen]

Alright, this thread is completely off the rails

[THE RZA]

I like to thank Phillip J Fry for ******* up every thread he posts in the last 2 months, and they're not even humorous derailments, except at his expense

[Flinkly]

So does anyone who has the ATS calipers in-hand, could they weigh one and the bracket? And pads and rotor if available. wondering what the weight is for this "kit" vs. LGT calipers/rotors (i can measure my LGT calipers when i get home).

[JF1GG29]

Did we ever get a confirmed weight on these things? The FHI 4pot calipers are cast steel or iron and heavy as ****. If these are aluminum, it might represent a nice decrease in unsprung weight.

[Flinkly]

Did we ever get a confirmed weight on these things? The FHI 4pot calipers are cast steel or iron and heavy as ****. If these are aluminum, it might represent a nice decrease in unsprung weight.

 

armature. gotta be quicker than that to ask a question...

[JF1GG29]

LOL, dang. I'll be sure to extend and place my question about ten seconds sooner in the future.

[Patrick Olsen]

I didn't get a chance to fit my friends prodrive wheels on today. I'll try and get to that ASAP.

 

[ATTACH]229847[/ATTACH]

So is that last pic the test fit with your friend's Prodrive wheels? If so, what are the specs on those?

[iNfEk]

So is that last pic the test fit with your friend's Prodrive wheels? If so, what are the specs on those?

 

 

Hey Pat!

 

no it's not. I haven't gotten a chance to go to his house yet since the "correct" brake calipers were mounted. I've gotta get in contact with him soon. I'll get you the specs as well. incidentally he wants to sell them.

[iNfEk]

So does anyone who has the ATS calipers in-hand, could they weigh one and the bracket? And pads and rotor if available. wondering what the weight is for this "kit" vs. LGT calipers/rotors (i can measure my LGT calipers when i get home).

 

Did we ever get a confirmed weight on these things? The FHI 4pot calipers are cast steel or iron and heavy as ****. If these are aluminum, it might represent a nice decrease in unsprung weight.

 

dang it! you guys should've asked for weight BEFORE i mounted these. i could've weighed them all LOL. I ain't doing it again. LOL

 

someone else needs to step up this time LOL

[battelready]

The calipers are identical in weight to the brembos as per the AC Delco spec sheet which is 8.06 pounds. Just add in the weight of the rotors you want to use and the bracket. The braket idk like a pound or less? Edited May 14, 2016 by battelready

[Horm2124]

any reason why you attacked me but not my points?

 

haha

 

blame your parents for raising such a codependent ignorant kid. im not your bro. im not in your circle jerk crew. dont like physics? you shouldnt have failed it.

 

what exactly did you add to this that was beneficial besides your whining?

 

http://enthone.com/Auto_Blog/2014/January/Aluminum_Brake_Calipers.aspx

 

 

 

One thing you don't seem to understand is that sometimes the only motivation needed to change from one part or design to another is because it's a better component. When it comes down to that's what we all want to do improve are cars.

 

And I hope insulting people on a forum from behind a screen name makes you feel very mature and intelligent.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Horm2124

[Rhitter]

any reason why you attacked me but not my points?

 

haha

 

blame your parents for raising such a codependent ignorant kid. im not your bro. im not in your circle jerk crew. dont like physics? you shouldnt have failed it.

 

what exactly did you add to this that was beneficial besides your whining?

 

Phillip, do you ever re-read your posts and ask yourself the same exact questions you are asking the forum? Your "points" are completely irrelevant and you jump directly into personal attacks. Do you have any ability for introspection?

 

We get it, you didn't fail physics and you are very smart.

 

You have not brought anything new to this thread or really even anything to think about.

 

Yes, the OEM brakes work "fine". Boxkita raced on them and only had issues because he needed better cooling, not because they didn't work. No one is arguing that.

 

All anyone is saying is that you can get Brembo's for cheaper. It makes the pedal feel better and looks cool.

 

This isn't some complicated physics discussion about getting the absolute best out of your braking system.

 

You are on a car-mod forum, you know what people do here. THEY MOD THEIR CARS!

 

Most on this forum are running their cars outside of the manufacturers designed for parameters. Did you replace the OEM wheels with RPF1s and sticky rubber? You just fucked with the suspension, it wasn't designed for that level of unsprung weight + grip. Paint your chrome trim black? You fucked with the design ascetics. It wasn't meant to have blacked out trim. Replace the stock brake pads with something with more fade resistance,? Well ****, you are going to eat through the rotors quicker / spill your coffee when you brake hard. The car wasn't designed to stop that fast.

 

 

there is a reason why there is "average" intelligence. it allows some of us to be above or below.

 

you are free any time to say im wrong and offer reasons.

 

 

You are wrong. The reason is because the points you offer have nothing to do with the discussion. Why are you so obsessed with this idea that you are smarter than everyone? What are you trying to prove to the internet? Here is a tip. If you want me to think you are "above average" . START ******* USING PUNCTUATION. Holy **** dude, your posts look like they are written by a 12 year-old.

 

Your inability to see anyone else's point of view must make you a delight to be around.

 

I don't think you will be able to answer the question. Think of it as a test of your much (self) vaunted intelligence.

Why don't you tell me, why would someone have coilovers and super soft sidewall tires? You might not agree with their reason, but think of this as a thought experiment. Why would someone do this?

Can you get an A on that test?

 

http://enthone.com/Auto_Blog/2014/January/Aluminum_Brake_Calipers.aspx

Why would you link this? How the hell is it relevant? Aluminum calipers are bigger? Cool story bro. If they fit under OEM wheels no cares. If they don't fit, it's up to each individual to determine if they want them.

 

Here is what it boils down to. See if you can understand this (and it should be easy because this has nothing to do with physics). People spend money on what they want to spend money on. This want is driven by a variety of factors. You might not always agree with those factors, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

Oh, wait sorry. That statement is about human behavior. Something you never were able to understand.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Rhitter

[Schrei Wolf]

1. Pascal's law

http://constructionmanuals.tpub.com/14050/img/14050_224_2.jpg

2. larger contact area between pads and rotors

3. Projects are fun. Personally I refinished some STi Brembos in black, and paired with some PowerStop slotted cyro rotors and project mu B-Forces because it's a fun project and I have a better feeling brake pedal.

[fotofan]

Here is a tip. If you want me to think you are "above average. START ******* USING PUNCTUATION. Holy **** dude, your posts look like they are written by a 12 year-old.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that's because they are.

[battelready]

Its funny how he accuse us of personal attacks whilst he calls us , in his words ,

a codependent ignorant kid.

. You should be given read only privileges because the amount of " help" you have ever provided on any thread is out weighed by the fact that you're a argumentative nuisance. This isn't Nasioc. The legacy forums has hundreds of qualified members who are engineers or have years of real world experience and are willing to hash out problems or questions. Whats the point of joining a forum when you cant be civil . Edited May 14, 2016 by battelready

[Patrick Olsen]

subed. If they fit OEM 17" wheels, would be amazing. A little confused that the adapter kit page says '13-15 ATS calipers, '04-07 CTS-V pads.. Are the pads of different thicknesses, and that's why '13-15 ATS pads won't work? Or are the CTS-V pads better material?

I'm not sure why their site is written like that. The ATS Brembos, the 1st gen CTS-V Brembos, the STI Brembos, the EVO Brembos, etc etc all use the same FMSI D1001 pad shape. I have not seen different thicknesses for that pad shape. The only thing I can figure is that aftermarket parts sites (Rock Auto, Summit, Tire Rack, whatever) tend to take a little time to show all of the parts available for new(er) vehicles, so the CTS-V Brake Swap folks said to look for '04-07 CTS-V pads because you'll see more results that way. Just a guess on my part.

 

Here's a brake bias idea. They make a bracket to use LGT front rotors on the rear of the car with the stock rear calipers. If you're buying ATS rotors and you don't have too many miles on the fronts just slap em on the back with this bracket.

 

http://www.racingbrake.com/Subaru-REAR-CB09D-p/cb09d.htm

As someone else pointed out, that setup doesn't use a front rotor on the rear - you wouldn't have a parking brake if you did that. The Racing Brake rotor is the same diameter as the STI rear rotor (316mm), but the STI rotor is 20mm thick (vs 18mm for the RB rotor). It does make me wonder if one could fit the RB bracket and LGT/OBXT rear caliper over the thicker STI rotor; probably not, but if you could, you could avoid buying the expensive RB rotors. It just so happens that KNS Brakes and DBA make a dual-drilled (5x100 and 5x114.3) STI rear rotor with the 170mm parking brake to allow non-STI folks to put the STI Brembos on the rear without having to change out knuckles. And you can get the pair of KNS/DBA rotors for ~$190 instead of RB's ~$310; those rotors + the RB brackets would make a nice rear companion to this ATS Brembo front setup, without having to spend $$$ on the rear STI Brembos. I'm guessing the STI rotor would be too thick to make that idea work, though.

 

Did you see my reasons why it doesn't fit? I think unless you've got a lathe and can shave the inner barrel evenly and put a spacer then it could possibly work but wheel integrity would be compromised. I'll put them on tonight and see and show why it won't work again

I can't imagine anyone would want to shave the barrel of their wheels. That strikes me as an exceptionally bad idea. Shaving the calipers down, though, as one or two folks have done in the NASIOC thread, seems like a much less risky proposition. My guess is that Brembo added that ridge along the top of the caliper to add some rigidity to meet a NVH target (see the weights that GM had to add to early Camaro SS Brembos to alleviate some sort of harmonic), so shaving it off doesn't really affect anything.

 

And, as shown by the post Mr. Crowbar quoted, perhaps the "17s don't fit" limitation really only applies to the OEM wheels. Gives me hope that my Rotas and Volks will clear.

 

 

.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Patrick Olsen

[Patrick Olsen]

good pads have a good amount of dust. just the way it is. BUT many complain about the dusting and then use lesser pads.

 

what is the over all point of using bigger rotors etc if people are going to use less than great pads?

So the only way to upgrade brakes is to go "all in", with bigger rotors, bigger calipers, and aggressive pads? That's a flawed argument. That's like saying, "What's the overall point in buying a sports sedan and then getting an automatic transmission?"

 

wouldnt good grippy pads on some stock sized rotors be just as good? i mean its tire friction related when it comes down to it. ive also had the stoptech pads on dba 4k rotors with a stink i can smell inside the car with windows closed and there was no fade.

If the stock calipers and rotors work for you, great; this upgrade isn't aimed at you.

 

what kind of feel? i prefer the stock progressive feel. the more you push down the more it stops. not the common super boost and then nothing after.

"Common" to what?

 

ive tried hawks on stock rotors. then tried stoptech pads on dba. will NEVER buy hawks again.

Which Hawks did you have? You are aware they make more than one compound, right? Don't assume the company's products are all bad just because you bought the wrong compound.

 

i firmly believe people should get better pads and stock/upgraded rotors. stop complaining about dust. its a necessity in order to have a good pad.

Or get bigger rotors and better calipers, which allow you to get the same performance while running less aggressive, less dusty pads on the street. Win! And then give you even better performance when you throw in track pads and hit an HPDE. Win again!!

 

chipping the corners off of a square wheel to make it round is simply counter productive.

I don't think you've thought that one through very well. A square wheel doesn't work very well, so chipping the corners off would actually be exactly the opposite of counter-productive.

 

yeah. been following this thread. "cheaper calipers" end up turning into a new wheel and tire combo. i fail to see the savings.

News flash! Not everyone has OEM wheels. Many folks already have wheels that will clear this setup.

 

with good tires for dd i just cant understand why this particular setup is needed.

Where did anyone say this setup was needed? Of course it's not needed. Again, if you're happy with the stock brakes, then you're not the target audience for this upgrade.

 

i have rpf1's and will never buy wrx wheels. why others just happen to have a set is a head scratcher.

Yes, it's just as head scratching as why you just happen to have a set of RPF1s.

 

for what exactly? the "look" of bigger brakes?

It's not a "look"; the brakes are actually bigger.

 

at least you need to be honest. people are doing for others to look at. for lack of self confidence. guess im at a stage in my life where i dont understand why people are desperate for others recognition.

Ignoring for a moment the fallacious implication that there is no performance benefit to doing this upgrade, are you seriously saying that the only reason people do aesthetic modifications to their cars is because of a lack of self-confidence and a desperate need for attention? Is that why you just happen to have a set of RPF1s?

 

stop tech [sic] pads dont [sic] really fade when subjected to my conservative coast-and-then-brake-lightly street driving.

Fixed that for you.

 

most of you who cobble this together will use some generic pad that isnt [sic] that good because dust is low then will use a low friction tire are near stock widths.

lower it then do camber to make it fit. but then you loose [sic] contact patch for braking. oh noes.

Where did you buy your Jump To Conclusions Mat?

 

please continue on. im curious what the end results are , the final costs and most of all the cost of your time through all of this. would like to see some performance improvement figures as well. stock vs modified stock vs this setup. what pads and tires are used. stopping distances. you know. some real quantitive data.

Quantitative data like that you used to determine the Stoptech/DBA combo was better than the Hawk/stock combo?

 

how about super soft sidewalls of the dws tires then people putting on coilovers.

And? Do you think a soft sidewall somehow magically negates the performance advantages of better dampers, higher spring rates, and lower CG?

 

0* toe? really? static toe is stationary and toe is different when you are driving.

No shit?! So what did you measure your dynamic toe to be? Personally, since I can't measure dynamic toe, I rely on tire wear to tell me if my toe is set improperly. After a couple hundred thousand miles I've found that 0° toe works out great, and gives a bit of improved steering response compared to the factory alignment specs.

 

from what ive seen so far...need bigger wheels, spacers, with the new wheels one needs tires. maybe need longer wheel studs.

If that's what you've gathered from this thread then you need to read it again.

 

18" rpf1 with new tires? 2k+. all the brake parts required? 1k?

18" wheels may or may not be required. The brake parts required come to ~$600, not $1000. It's hard to find a pair of STI Brembo calipers alone for $600, and those aren't going to be brand new calipers. That's why this is a noteworthy deal.

 

for 3k id rather try a bbk already developed. dba 5k are 300 each.

Uhhh... DBA 5000s are not a BBK.

 

keep in mind...are they heavier? will the rotors be heavier? wheels? tires? you will be changing your suspension dynamics with the increased sprung weight.

Comparing a Centric LGT rotor vs a Centric STI rotor, the difference is 1#. I'm guessing the calipers + pads is about a toss-up. If you can feel that difference in unsprung weight, well, I'm impressed.

 

car makers use iron for a reason. something about coefficient of heat.

This ^^^ was part of your post when I got the email notification that someone had replied to the thread. I was disappointed to find that you had edited your post (presumably because you realized you were talking out your ass ); I was really looking forward to learning more about this "coefficient of heat" and how it influences the OEMs' caliper material selection. Instead you deleted that comment and replaced it with a generic link that isn't germane to the discussion at hand.