snow05gtRI Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I'm planning to put the WBO2 in my Cobb bellmouth bung, so that V+ location sounds pretty close. Thanks for the direction on the wiring. This got me wondering if the signal dropout could be related to alternator surge if the alternator is on the way out / on the fritz. My car has been parked for a few weeks and needed a jump this morning, and I noticed while driving to work (watching BtSsm) that my battery voltage was spiking to 15.5+ Volts. I wonder if iNVAR replaced their alternator in between the time that the dropouts happened and stopped happening. I've had an issue with a parasitic drain for years (if I let it sit for longer than a week, especially in winter, the car completely loses all battery). I would like to think that the parasitic drain is NOT from a bad alternator, but the fact the battery voltage was spiking really high got me wondering if the alternator is bad. I dunno, could be also due to the fact that the battery voltage was so low, and the alternator might need reasonably good battery voltage for it's voltage regulator circuit. Kinda tough to convince myself to replace my alternator when it seems like I have a parasitic drain, not an alternator-not-charging-battery problem. Once I drive the car for at least a half hour it will start consistently again until I let it sit for another week+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Underdog, how much does the data point jump around in your logs? Mine isn't exactly smooth, but I don't know if that's due to a sensor/electrical noise issue or actual fuel pressure fluctuations. I've been using that same sensor for a while to monitor my oil pressure and I'm also logging via TGV. The output signal from my sensor looks very similar to the signal from yours. See the attached chart. *edit* just saw your other post... reduced sampling (more parameters) doesn't change how much it bounces around. In the log I pulled my data from I was logging 25 parameters. those dropouts may not be related to the openport or the laptop. I get similar dropouts on occasion. They last 1-2sec, like yours. I did a bunch of reading on it, other people have had similar problems. The belief is an electrical gremlin causing the data transfer to hang up in the ECU. Supposedly someone replaced their ECU and that fixed it, and others claimed relocating the grounds fixed it. Could the dropouts be caused by the grounding for the added sensors? Both of my TGV's are being used as sensor inputs (oil press. and wbo2) and I've never seen any dropouts... not that it happens on every car. FWIW Wbo2: the ground and +12v both come from the battery to an SPDT relay, then to the sensor/controller. The switched +12v (turning on the relay) is coming from the stock front O2 sensor harness. Oil pressure: entirely powered/grounded through the TGV harness. Edited January 12, 2017 by StkmltS My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) you guys and your simpler TGV wiring... Does anyone know where to get the connector for the 07+ TGVs? they have both motor and sensor, so i believe 5 wires. https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?x=0&y=0&search_in_description=1&keywords=subaru+tgv You can get the sensor-side pigtail and have them make it any length or terminate it with any of the other connectors they offer. Yeah low sampling rate may be causing some strange signal aliasing. Also not sure if the ECU even free-runs this input or only samples it once per cycle. The TGV's on the early cars were just on-off anyway, so it's not like it needed a lot of resolution. I'll try logging at a higher rate (less parameters) and see how the scatter changes. Cobb used an AQ-1 in their testing and that showed a lot of high frequency variation. I first ran across that somewhere in the massive fuel pump controller thread, but they also list it on the spec page. The 45% came from (13.8V(runing)-0.5v(controller+wiring loss))*PWM_value = 6v. The 85% was just arbitrary chosen, but something between 73% and 78% would make more sense. I built this logging rig actually to verify those chosen values weren’t causing fuel pressure issues. snow05gtRI, thanks for pointing me in the right direct. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do. For switched 12V for the wideband I'd tap the V+ off the rear O2 sensor. It's harness is the green plug near the turbo on top of the transmission. Then use the motor ground on the driver side TGV. If there is a seprate signal ground, I'd tie that into the ground on the TGV sensor plug. Thanks for the reminder on the Cobb fuel pressure white paper and for the info on the DW voltage requirement. I'll go back and re-read both when I have a chance. Like Heiche mentioned, I've performed the FPR signal source relocation, so the scatter in whatever data I get may not be an apples-to-apples comparison. I'm planning to put the WBO2 in my Cobb bellmouth bung, so that V+ location sounds pretty close. Thanks for the direction on the wiring. This got me wondering if the signal dropout could be related to alternator surge if the alternator is on the way out / on the fritz. My car has been parked for a few weeks and needed a jump this morning, and I noticed while driving to work (watching BtSsm) that my battery voltage was spiking to 15.5+ Volts. I wonder if iNVAR replaced their alternator in between the time that the dropouts happened and stopped happening. I've had an issue with a parasitic drain for years (if I let it sit for longer than a week, especially in winter, the car completely loses all battery). I would like to think that the parasitic drain is NOT from a bad alternator, but the fact the battery voltage was spiking really high got me wondering if the alternator is bad. I dunno, could be also due to the fact that the battery voltage was so low, and the alternator might need reasonably good battery voltage for it's voltage regulator circuit. Kinda tough to convince myself to replace my alternator when it seems like I have a parasitic drain, not an alternator-not-charging-battery problem. Once I drive the car for at least a half hour it will start consistently again until I let it sit for another week+ Did we end up upgrading your FP wiring? In the last year or so I discovered the original FP wiring upgrade was causing a parasitic drain on the battery. I was able to rewire it such that it maintained the benefit but didn't drain the battery: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/fpcm-wiring-upgrade-relay-staying-switched-w-key-off-242295.html Edited January 12, 2017 by Underdog The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Could the dropouts be caused by the grounding for the added sensors? Both of my TGV's are being used as sensor inputs (oil press. and wbo2) and I've never seen any dropouts... not that it happens on every car. I don't have any extra sensors and I don't believe anyone else I spoke with had any either. It's dropouts while logging from the OBDII when at WOT. I really hope it's just a logging dropout and not a complete hangup of the ECU... I feel like that would be more noticeable, though. Did we end up upgrading your FP wiring? In the last year or so I discovered the original FP wiring upgrade was causing a parasitic drain on the battery. I was able to rewire it such that it maintained the benefit but didn't drain the battery: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/fpcm-wiring-upgrade-relay-staying-switched-w-key-off-242295.html we did not. want to? edit: misread that. Thought it says "original FP wiring causing drain" ... not "original FP wiring upgrade causing drain" ... curses. Edited January 12, 2017 by snow05gtRI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utc_pyro Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I've been using that same sensor for a while to monitor my oil pressure and I'm also logging via TGV. The output signal from my sensor looks very similar to the signal from yours. See the attached chart. Was that at idle or steady state? I'd expect oil pressure to be pretty steady, so maybe these are just crappy sensors. Could the dropouts be caused by the grounding for the added sensors? Both of my TGV's are being used as sensor inputs (oil press. and wbo2) and I've never seen any dropouts... not that it happens on every car. I doubt they are related, mine was dropping out before. We're not making ground loops here, so that shouldn't be an issue. Power draw from the 5V bus could be an issue, but I haven't pulled apart an ECU to see the ratings of the regulator components. If we ran into that issue there it'd be more browing out the whole ECU, so less log dropping logging more dropping everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utc_pyro Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) Looked over some logs tonight of both idle and the ECU on but car off, and it looks like both the sensor and TGV input are fairly clean. Off the variation was 0.02v (0.5pgi), at idle 0.08v (2psi) including fuel system noise. That's a lot less than what I was seeing at high RPM/throttle. Doing a run with 40 samples/sec showed the fuel pressure being just as unstable. Something in the 1KHz+ range could give more interesting data. http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=243409&d=1484372163romraiderlog_20170113_232238_fp.csv Edited January 14, 2017 by utc_pyro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 This guy also has the connectors... BTW, Jason at http://flexconverter.com/collections/subaru has the plugs to fit the TGV harness connectors now. They're not on the store but he will sell them with pins and seals for US$8 each. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=243409&d=1484372163 If you squint it looks like the fuel pressure gets less stable at around 3000, 4500, and 6000RPM, with increasing amplitude. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 those also appear to happen at slope changes in the boost profile... tried plotting it against injector duty cycle? to close the loop on the alternator-maybe-source-of-dropouts topic: I asked iNVAR if he ever replaced his alternator and he said no, and he still doesn't have dropouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I've been fighting the dropout issue as well. All new grounding straps, new battery, still have the issue. I hate it. "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well." - Bill Shakespeare - car modder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cBax Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 My dropouts definitely seem related to the adapter. I first started seeing them on a WRX and it was bad, like every WOT I'd lose 3k worth of data. Then started seeing it on my OBXT occasionally. The adapter I was using at the time failed (mini usb connector came apart). I purchased another one and it's been fine on my car since. Ive yet to send my broken one in for repair, but he offered to do it for free. Ive got another OP2.0 that has intermittent flashing issues and haven't tested it on that one. '05 Outback XT www.facebook.com/baxleysspeedshop www.baxleysspeedshop.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I've tried three different BtSsm adapters from heiche, including one he specially modified for my troubleshooting, and nothing has fixed it. I wonder if it's the OBDII port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Just curious, do you guys have aftermarket HID's installed? I am going to disconnect mine and see if that has any effect. Other than the VBG1 and the LC2 my HID are the only aftermarket electrical item on my car. "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well." - Bill Shakespeare - car modder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I do not. Only electrical mods in my car are LED map/dome/door lights, LED reverse bulbs, and hella horns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino6303 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Just curious, do you guys have aftermarket HID's installed? I am going to disconnect mine and see if that has any effect. Other than the VBG1 and the LC2 my HID are the only aftermarket electrical item on my car. I have hids and no cutout issues using my btssm adapter, op2.0 or vagcom cable. I *think* many cutout issues are from the computer/tablet end whether the otg cable is poor or the usb drivers have issues. My old laptop would cutout during logs with my wideband and it was a cheap usb-serial converter cable that was the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 My old laptop would cutout during logs with my wideband and it was a cheap usb-serial converter cable that was the cause. Strangely, I find the cheapest, most generic adapters are the most reliable. I also get the best results using the generic PL2303 drivers vs. those supplied with the adapters. If you still have problems either change USB cables until you find a good one, or keep adding ferrite chokes to the one you have until it behaves itself. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino6303 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Strangely, I find the cheapest, most generic adapters are the most reliable. I also get the best results using the generic PL2303 drivers vs. those supplied with the adapters. If you still have problems either change USB cables until you find a good one, or keep adding ferrite chokes to the one you have until it behaves itself. I no longer have issues. I log wideband using my tgv and I use btssm rather than romraider and a laptop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oODanKNesSOo Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Hey guys.... I'm curious, since I've deleted my tgvs, and have had the codes tuned out... can I still use the tgv signal for a wb02? I'd have to have the tuner RE-initiate the tgv signal I use right? Having read all 10 pages, off topic and all... I find myself more confused then before I started on page one! If anyone has some spare time and could dummy it down for me... I'd be very grateful! I get the ground and switched 12v bit... not sure which wire goes from my LC2 controller to the tgv- yellow? With the wires already in the cabin is it best to tap the ecu? IDK how to locate the needed wire, so I'd feel more comfortable going for the sensor in the engine bay... can I not just cut off my old tgv sensor connector, remove unneeded wires, solder what's needed, then just plug it into the tgv connector in the engine compartment? I've done a lot if work on this car lately, and am exhausted... hence the plea to have someone hold my hand through this last step; so I don't turn another 30minute job in to 3 hours, 4 bloody knuckles, and the use of every curse word in the English language- and then some! Thanks for any help! Edited March 28, 2017 by oODanKNesSOo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Hey guys.... I'm curious, since I've deleted my tgvs, and have had the codes tuned out... can I still use the tgv signal for a wb02? I'd have to have the tuner RE-initiate the tgv signal I use right? Disabling the codes doesn't affect the signal afaik. I get the ground and switched 12v bit... not sure which wire goes from my LC2 controller to the tgv- yellow? With the wires already in the cabin is it best to tap the ecu? IDK how to locate the needed wire, so I'd feel more comfortable going for the sensor in the engine bay... can I not just cut off my old tgv sensor connector, remove unneeded wires, solder what's needed, then just plug it into the tgv connector in the engine compartment? I've done a lot if work on this car lately, and am exhausted... hence the plea to have someone hold my hand through this last step; so I don't turn another 30minute job in to 3 hours, 4 bloody knuckles, and the use of every curse word in the English language- and then some! Thanks for any help! See the FSM pages in post #43 http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5192689&postcount=43 Getting to the ECU is pretty easy - it's in the passenger side footwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oODanKNesSOo Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 You da man! Thanks bro!!! I'll have to go back a few pages and see which wire needs to be tapped to the ecu.. if it's right there, and so are the wires... no sense in running wires to the engine bay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) Disabling the codes doesn't affect the signal afaik. True statement. Hey guys.... I'm curious, since I've deleted my tgvs, and have had the codes tuned out... can I still use the tgv signal for a wb02? I'd have to have the tuner RE-initiate the tgv signal I use right? Your tune won't need modified at all. The ECU is still being fed the (lack of) signal, it's just not reporting it as a problem (no code). I get the ground and switched 12v bit... not sure which wire goes from my LC2 controller to the tgv- yellow? With the wires already in the cabin is it best to tap the ecu? IDK how to locate the needed wire, so I'd feel more comfortable going for the sensor in the engine bay... can I not just cut off my old tgv sensor connector, remove unneeded wires, solder what's needed, then just plug it into the tgv connector in the engine compartment? My controller is PLX so the colors probably won't match up, but I'll can take a picture of my setup and post it on my lunch break soon. I'd recommend buying a new connector instead of cutting the TGV wires, but that's just my OCD, it won't make it work any better or worse. I've done a lot if work on this car lately, and am exhausted... hence the plea to have someone hold my hand through this last step; so I don't turn another 30minute job in to 3 hours, 4 bloody knuckles, and the use of every curse word in the English language- and then some! What you're asking for isn't possible. I'm able to do it without the cursing, but that comes at the expense of increased time spent and blood shed. Edited March 29, 2017 by StkmltS My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) Yep, it's the yellow wire at the TGV connector. The 0-5v signal out from the controller is the only thing I have hooked up to the TGV harness. Everything else is coming from somewhere else in the engine bay. The idea is that the TGV portion of the ECU (pardon my incorrect terminology) may be unable to handle significant electrical spikes, and it's best to only feed the TGV harness what's necessary. So that's what I did. The fact that my setup works is proof that the (12v supply) and (ground) in the TGV harness are both there only to feed power to the sensor. I don't have everything wired as cleanly as possible, but my OCD is satisfied and the wiring is safe. SPDT relay (smile.Amazon): 12v in directly from the battery. Ground also comes directly from the battery. 12v in switch (turns the relay on/off) comes from the stock front O2 sensor. 12v out goes to the controller Ground out goes to the controller Controller: 12v in comes from the relay. Ground comes in from the relay. 0-5v signal out goes into the TGV harness (yellow wire) wbo2 plugs in. WBO2 sensor: Plugged into the controller. Edited April 4, 2017 by StkmltS speling My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flinkly Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 you have your PLX sensor module in the engine bay?!? * Build Thread * 26.53 MPG - 12 month Average * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freaksavior Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 The passenger side TGV is a 2 prong right? Is there a connector we know of that fits it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) you have your PLX sensor module in the engine bay?!? Uh... I feel really brilliant asking this... is that a bad thing? The passenger side TGV is a 2 prong right? Is there a connector we know of that fits it? The TGV sensor harness that you wire it into has three wires. I think the TGV motor connections are 2 prong, but we don't use those guys. IIRC this only applies to '05 and '06 models, as later models have the motors and sensors together as one unit. Edited March 29, 2017 by StkmltS My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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