Daniel Stern Lighting and Subaru headlight options

Again, with our BL/BP-Legacy's projector optics, yes, even "improper" plug-and-play kits will do just fine. Unless you're off on the aim, you should not get flashed by oncoming traffic - even with the higher-output kits - and you will see a marked (and cost-effective) improvement in "light on road."

[ Aside - here, I'll have to caution SubieDoobieDoo...yes, that's an impressive "lumen" figure to quote, but don't get too hung-up on that, as it is just about half marketing hype (just like PIAA's "55W=85W" claims). More lumens is going to mean more light, but it's how that light is handled by the surrounding optics that will define whether or not it is, at all, even remotely useful. With the extremes of the higher-output plug-and-play kits, you're literally seeing an improvement because there's just so much light coming out, versus what used to be there. However, make no mistake, this in no way means, by any stretch of technological truth, that the resultant beam is anywhere near optimized. Remember my flashlight analogy? I have a very compact, very efficient 100-lumen output flashlight that'll effectly light up a typical bedroom to the effect of a nice table-lamp - but it doesn't "throw" the light for crap. If you try use this light to see to the end of your back-yard, you'd barely make out the trees lining your lawn. However, just by using a different reflector head and optics housing, I can get this same light to effectively throw a "pencil beam" where it can easily pinpoint specific objects hundreds of yards away. This is the same essential issue with using a designed-for-halogen-incandescent optics/reflector assembly, with a HID light-source, without proper "matching" of the components.]

There will still be a lot of "wasted light" as well as beam imperfections. But honestly, this is likely something that only a true lighting enthusiast will see and not be happy with. In the vast majority of cases, most non-enthusiast drivers will only see the benefits.

Is the "improper" plug-and-play kit a viable option for you? that'll depend on your personal tastes/wishes/beliefs.

However, in our particular application, it's hard to debate its cost-effectiveness, and it's been proven that it will work quite well - and without offending oncoming traffic.

What are you using for high beams?

This particular HID from Apexcone has a solenoid that moves the entire light module back-and-forth - a very, VERY good "mimic" of a regular dual-filament bulb - - - which has a "forward" and a "rearward" element that comes on depending on whether you activate the "HI" or the "LO" circuit with the lighting lever. So I have the same lighting output - the same thing is used - whether I'm on "hi" or "lo".

The difference is how this glowing HID "bulge" is shifted within the headlight housing. Is this clear?

Cheapo "hi / lo" HID's have some sort of a "flipper thingie" that "twitches" the light element up-and-down - - - a real schlock way of trying to re-position the HID "hot-spot" to get a "hi / lo" shift. DO NOT BUY THESE! They are crappy knock-offs that will fail in one position or the other - leaving you in deep doo-doo!

Or ... there are "hybrid" HID / "halogen" systems that have a mini-HID module ("lo") alongside a mini-halogen ("hi") element. These are the poorest excuse for lighting since candles were first used ....... because when the high element fails - and it will - EVEN FASTER THAN A REGULAR HALOGEN! - you're up a creek with a very, VERY expensive bulb replacement ahead of you!

I looked long and hard at converting to HID's - just as "fishbone" has already noted with his accurate observations. I looked at every possible combination of HID technology ... and went with these Apexcone *TRUE* Hi / Lo units.

Haven't regretted it a nano-second ..............

Rgds,

So you're using non-stock HID projectors in your headlamps then?

So I simply swapped out the "halogen" bulbs for HID's.

I guess they're "projector" housings stock because you can't see the headlight bulb. The light bounces off some sort of a "reflector cap" inside the lamp housing itself.

Is this clear? No big changes ... just got tired of "regular" light bulbs ............

Rgds,

My Sube (a Legacy GT wagon) has a dual-filament 9007 bulb ... like almost everyone else........

What model year is your GT wagon?

What model year is your GT wagon?

Rgds,

^ With that information above.

If your vehicle is similar in MY (USDM 1997-1999) to those pictured here:

http://ppgmedia.buysell.com/ppgphotos/BS200572011922/BS200572011922_2007611121017803-display.jpg

or

http://images.cars.com/main/DMI/97561/4053.02.jpg

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GREAT-GREEN-GREY-1998-SUBARU-LEGACY-2-5-GT-WAGON-152K_W0QQitemZ130170354265QQihZ003QQcategoryZ31869QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

With a headlight unit that looks akin to this ->

http://www.choicebumper.com/pictures/6725883.jpg

Then no ->

I guess they're "projector" housings stock because you can't see the headlight bulb. The light bounces off some sort of a "reflector cap" inside the lamp housing itself

This isn't correct at all.

Your headlight is of the reflector type. The "cap," typically called the "bulb shield," is used to essentially optically "capture" the worst of the glare-inducing light from making it out, directly forward, through the lighting assembly.

http://www.mvlc.info/glossary.html

Page down to the "Reflector-type Headlamps" section on that page, and you'll see a diagram/schematic of a typical reflector lamp housing. The bulb shield is the C-shaped partial-rectangle that sits at the middle of the surrounding reflector, and blocks direct-forward light from the light bulb (the red rectangle).

[ Aside - note here that if you were to take a look at pictures of the headlight assembly of the '05+ LGTs, which looks like http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3737&highlight=clearing - the outboard low-beam headlamp unit is a projector setup, whereas the inboard high-beam unit is a reflector setup (this assembly does not utilize a bulb shield, as it is a high-beam application, and the use of a bulb shield would be rather illogical). ]

In your case, I'm honestly rather surprised you're not offending oncoming traffic. Typically, reflector assemblies, with or without an optically active overlens, is recognized as the single greatest offending factor in such "improper" plug-and-play retrofits. In your case, I would assume that either Subaru did an excellent job with the reflector focusing, or that your external overlens has aged/yellowed/hazed enough that it is (also) cutting the worse of the glare from being seen by oncoming traffic. My bet is on the former, as certainly, the same engineers did an excellent job with our projector optics in the '05+ models....

Regardless, it's obvious that you lack basic understanding/terminology, and the above-cited quick-reference from MVLC should help you correct this deficit.

.......(And ........ they easily outlast EVERY incandescent bulb by a factor 4-6X - no worries! And they also won't dim with "age" like EVERY glowing-wire bulb will!!!!!!!)

From the FAQ at hidplanet.com:

"All HID bulbs shift to blue, and become dimmer as they age, this becomes exacerbated by smaller companies with no one to monitor their quality."

Exactly so. HIDs dim too, but they do so at a MUCH smaller rate because they last so long also. They also have an initial "burn-in" phase too, afaik and iirc.

Like I said, I've had HIDs stock before, the drop-in kit didn't impress me much without a true projector retrofit. The light is good, but the aim so and so.

^ To go along with that....

(And ........ they easily outlast EVERY incandescent bulb by a factor 4-6X - no worries! And they also won't dim with "age" like EVERY glowing-wire bulb will!!!!!!!)

Going back to revisit the "dimming"/age issue - something that I'd forgotten to address above, in my reply to SubieDoobieDoo, but both you and brother outahere kindly picked up on ->

This is quoted from the Automotive Lighting FAQ, section-specific for HID bulbs ( http://faqlight.carpassion.info/hl-hid-bulbs.htm ):

The hard facts on 4100K Philips HID bulb:

 

It is shown in product catalogs as "MPXL-DL35". MPXL stands for Micro Power Xenon Light. This is the bulb installed OE in many HID headlamps today.

It is 3200lm bright (+/-450lm) and 4100K colortemp (0.380x 0.390y).

At zero hours it starts off at 4100K and goes upwards to 4600K after 1500 hours. After that there is no measure points, but curve has the direction to reach 5000K after maybe 2500hours.

Do not rush out and buy some 5 year old bulb from an old BMW 750iA yet; As all other bulbs, they also get dimmer with time:

100% at 0 hours

90% ar 200 hours

80% at 1000 hours

75% at 1500 hours

70% at 2000 hours

[ emphasis added ]

My current OEM retrofit in the old DSM that's still in my garage is getting to be about 1000 hours. I can't quantify its color temperature, but I can definitely say that it's noticeably more blue.

It's been about 3 years now, and given that period of time, it's not totally unreasonable to think that I'd logged close to 1500 hours of burn-time on those bulbs, and that particular cited shift seems reasonable, based on my observations.

I cannot tell if the light's gotten dimmer, though. This, I think, is simply because there's so much light there to begin with - akin to the way an "improper" plug-and-play kit will improve observed lighting output so much that it can readily and easily "hide" its shortcomings and imperfections, I think that this is just one of those areas where, unless a back-to-back/side-by-side comparison between identical new and aged setups are compared, it's just really hard to notice under most real-world conditions.

Chances that a bulb gets as old as 2000h is not likely. 2000h of driving in 70km/h (~50mph) is a pretty long distance: 140000km (~90000miles). Chances that most cars see some form of front accident that will break the bulbs are pretty high.

There is no reason to jump any conclusion that they loose lumen too fast. I would be surprised if any other lamp can do better. An halogen lamp is usually out of service after 5-600 on graphs like this. Asian HID bulbs has repuation for 5-600 hours of life as well.

[ again, emphasis added ]

I honestly never realized that the Asian HID bulbs had such short lifespans - but given a quick review of the various Vendor advertisement threads for the different plug-and-play kits here, I actually think that this estimate isn't all that far off.

HIDs will eventually be replaced by LEDs, and enthusiasts will no doubt try to do a LED install in a halogen reflector!

Hella currently has prototype LED headlamps that have 90% of the luminance of HIDs. The Audi R8 has an all LED headlamp system (I'm not sure how the Audi lights compare to HID). And in the the summer of 2008, the Cadillac Escalade Platinum will have a 100% LED headlamp, designed by Hella.

http://www.hella-press.com/search_detail.php?text_id=653&archiv=0&language=e&newdir=eng

From what I have read, the future of automotive lighting is "intelligent or adaptive lighting systems" (like the Hella VARILIS system) based on LED+HID combos in the near future, and pure LED in the more distant future. These systems offer multiple, automatically selected beam patterns (5 patterns with the Hella VARIOX system), depending on driving conditions.

There is tons of R&D going on in the LED business, because there are billions of dollars in future profits to be made.

^ Totally.

Back when I was active in the flashlight field, there was also an automotive-lighting enthusiast there who was much, much more knowledgeable than I am ( I honestly tread a very shallow pool of know-how ) - when the flashlight industry started trending towards LEDs, and some of us made the comment that LEDs are going to be the next "trickle down" thing in automotive lighting, he'd cited that there was yet another technology, just over the horizon, that will likely supercede LEDs. At the time, he thought that it would be a good race as to which technology would trickle-down (not reach market, as it was obvious that LEDs were already in widespread use in other automotive applications at that point, and that headlights were definitely going to be next), first.

I just wish I could recall what it was that he said was the next big thing!

outahere, I haven't been keeping track, so I'm afraid I'm a bit ignorant on this one. I knew that the R8 has an all-LED headlamp system, but that it did not make the NA translation. What was the reason for that? just a lack of the necessary certification? Any idea when they will have that lighting option available?

Pooh-pooh HID retrofits all you want to, folks. Sounds like a bunch of "sour grapes" to me. Or a serious state of denial that they don't work. Well, they DO. Maybe not perfectly but as long as I'm not killing my fellow drivers' eyes, this is a non-issue.

I'm clearly not offending oncoming drivers by my superior lumen upgrade - or, as "TSi+WRX's" put it in his jibberish -

akin to the way an "improper" plug-and-play kit will improve observed lighting output

I can *SEE* better than ever and that's a safety-enough reason to have installed "improper" devices in an OEM housing.

Are they (mega-watt HID's) legal? Like I freakin' CARE!!!!!!! I'm not robbing a bank or anything so any "law" that tells me what I can - or cannot - put into MY own vehicle that doesn't affect the mileage or the engine emissions can pucker up and KISS MY #$%^&* A**!!!!!!

Bash the real reason many of us are in search of better lighting for our faster cars: Poor engineering of the headlight itself - done for style and design rather than for performance.

As soon as automotive designers veered away from the standard round headlights - either single or doubles - we were all in trouble anyway as far as night vision.

My old 280Z - with 7-inch round Cibie "Bo-Bi" headlights - and ancient H4 bubls - was about a country-mile ahead of my current cars as far as headlight performance.

These "fantastic plactic" lenses are pure crap - ALL of 'em! (Never seen a glass headlight "haze over" ...........)

Rgds,

Pooh-pooh HID retrofits all you want to, folks.

Um, we're not, because retrofits are BETTER than a simple plug and play. A retrofit means that you take out the halogen-designed projector and replace it with a HID-designed one. A simple plug and play, to make an analogy, is like trying to wear someone else's reading glasses.

It's not how MUCH light but HOW you use it.

Sounds like a bunch of "sour grapes" to me. Or a serious state of denial that they don't work.

I had HIDs. I took them off and decided to only have them put on with a full retrofit like I said above.

so any "law" that tells me what I can - or cannot - put into MY own vehicle that doesn't affect the mileage or the engine emissions can pucker up and KISS MY #$%^&* A**!!!!!!

The fact of the matter is there are such things as DOT standards, and while I'm not some sort of DOT-nazi, the other extreme is no better either. What I mean by this, if we go by your argument, I could have poorly-aimed airplane landing gear and be OK ...

Bash the real reason many of us are in search of better lighting for our faster cars: Poor engineering of the headlight itself - done for style and design rather than for performance.

That's relative and you may be correct if you're talking about the previous gen Legacies. But the fact of the matter is the current projectors are top notch and second to none. The fact that you can drop a PnP HID kit and have reasonable spread and lighting speaks for itself. Also, the fact that a 2100-lumen halogen bulb in these projectors comes close to a 3200 HID kit and actually has superior spread and lighting, speaks for itself. These projectors definitely know how to throw light out there and not waste it.

Great, SubieDoobieDoo,degrade to personal bashing and non-scientific ranting..... Frankly, I'm saddened that you'd fall so low.

Nowhere in our current or previous conversations did I - or the other participants of this thread - insult you. We've simply asked questions, and, where needed, pointed you towards resources which would help boost your knowledge-base. Why you are choosing to attack us - and me, personally, is truly beyond my imagining.

The points that you made were valid, however misinformed they may have been. The truth as you saw with your eyes was that with your particular application, you saw an improvement in overall lighting.

The "whys" of how this was achieved was simple - that the reflector design of your particular headlamp housing is *not* "inferior," as you suggest, but rather has such sophisticated design that it actually allowed you to take what is a totally improperly matched light source, and make-best out of it. My "jibberish," as you called it, is simply to say that there's so much light produced by the aftermarket HID system that you've installed that you're essentially "whitewashing" any deficiencies that may have come about as a result of the improperly matched light-source - that you're actually seeing better, despite-of/in-spite-of this incompatibility, which, with a less-bright light source, may prove shockingly deficient. [At the same time, I can't help but also imagine what kind of an improvement you may have seen, if this 55W PnP kit was placed into a HID housing that was actually optimized for its use; if all the "waste" light from your current setup could be optimized, just imagine the possibility!]

Furthermore, it's more than likely your "inferior" reflector design that is actually preserving your headlight cut-off sufficiently so that you're not offending oncoming drivers. As such, again, this is clearly not an "inferior" design - it's a design that was able to overcome even something for which it was clearly never designed to handle.

I'm actually paying a compliment to those who engineered your current lights - and I think that if you pushed through the logic of what I'm saying above, you'll see that it's a valid point.

Retrofit the HID into your 280Z's headlamp housings, and you'll likely have everyone flashing their lights at you - while you were able to "see better" with that particular light (and its near-spherical and deep-dish reflector housing is one of the reasons why this was so, again, it's not a matter of light output [which is not to say that this is not important], but rather, a matter of how that output is manipulated and optimized, that's of extreme importance in determining how well the driver is able to see downroad), using the traditional halogen light-source, it's definitely arguable that we've now traded-off styling for true performance, but that trend is nowhere near universal, and with better optics design, it's even more than reversible.

Again, before you begin to say that I'm "pooh-pooh"-ing HIDs, it's not "sour grapes." I've done several HID retrofits before - both of the "improper" plug-and-play type as well as full-out optics retrofits. My current DSM, which I still own, utilizes just such a full retrofit. With the '05+ Legacy, I simply haven't seen the need to do so, and that's the only reason why I haven't done this. My lines of reasoning are very, very similar to those of brother fishbone's, and if you read carefully enough both of my current as well as my past posts on this topic, you'll see that this is true.

I don't deny that HID retrofits work and work extremely well. I've stated this many, many times - both here on the LGT.com Forums as well as in the many other auto as well as lighting-related Forums I belong to. I don't deny that in some instances, even the "improper" plug-and-play kits can work very, very well - I've repeatedly stated that particularly in the case of our BL/BP-chassis Legacies, its projector optics seem to handle this very, very well in terms of both performance as well as in "protecting" oncoming drivers from glare.

Give my past posts a read, you'll see that I've been VERY consistent in stating these views. Insult me if you must, SubieDoobieDoo, but please do so *accurately*.

As for legality, I was never one to get into that issue. Short of a direct-transplant of *everything* that's related to the HID system (including automatic leveling or user-enabled leveling, AFS, etc.) from another vehicle of the same make/model (even one from another geographic market - but note that this presents its own challenges in that the retrofit must be modified to suit "handedness," if-necessary, to translate between the two markets) that carries with it an OEM-certified HID system, there is no "legal" way to go about such a change. Even a "full optics retrofit" is still technically totally "illegal."

As an automotive lighting enthusiast, however, I well understand that most of such ancillary technology is not needed in order to achieve both performance as well as glare-reduction/concern-levels that are more than comparable with just about any OEM setup. To me, the "legality" of the issue is akin to my views on speeding/speed-detection countermeasures, as well as even the very hobby of modifying my vehicles. All of these are on a slippery-slope, and since I myself stand on this very unstable piece of land, it would be a far cry for me to yell "hey, what about the legality of this or that."

Again, I don't know why you'd choose to make such a big issue about this particular concern, as I only mention them out of wanting anything I post to paint a proper and complete picture. Never did I reside unduly on the issue. Additionally, brother sebberry's legal concerns here in this thread was aimed specifically towards the HIR replacement high-beams, not towards HIDs. Again, no-foul, there.

Finally, as for your issues on plastic lenses....

Certainly, hazing/yellowing is an issue as many of the earlier (previous generation polymer technology) age. However, current-generation polymers are holding quite well, for many, many years. And although the aging concerns you've focused on are indeed valid for polymer lenses, they are just as valid for glass lenses, too, albeit undeniably on a much longer time-scale. Both can be "restored," however, and it should also be noted that most of today's polymer overlenses are extremely, extremely durable, and will withstand greater debris impacts before showing damage or becoming un-usable.

.........I just wish I could recall what it was that he said was the next big thing!.......

What I am aware of, just from browsing, is LED, OLED, and Electroluminescent Foils. To get a sense of what the industry is up to, look at this announcement for an upcoming international meeting on lighting design;

http://www.iqpc.com/cgi-bin/templates/singlecell.html?topic=495&event=14603

Also take a look at the presentations from a recent SAE international meeting:

http://www.sae.org/servlets/PaperEvents?OBJECT_TYPE=PaperEventsInfo&PAGE=getPapers&GEN_NUM=145665&TOPIC=Lighting%20Systems&TECH_CD=LIGHT

......I knew that the R8 has an all-LED headlamp system, but that it did not make the NA translation. What was the reason for that? just a lack of the necessary certification? Any idea when they will have that lighting option available?

AFAIK, it is an option available in late 2007, legal for USA, soon to be legal in Europe.

http://www.al-lighting.de/index.php?id=1221&lang=en

^ Holy NICE!

Looks like I'm getting fed the wrong/incomplete information from the car-rags. Not surprising, though. As of their November issues, the popular rags (C&D, R&T, Motor Trend) were still saying that the full-LED option won't be available in NA until later in the model year, but that they will be available upon the vehicle's introduction in Europe.

---

As-always, a sincere thank-you for keeping us all up-to-date on the technical stuff! I will definitely give those links that you provided above a good read-through during down-time with Anna this weekend.

........are these things genuine Osram bulbs.......

They are genuine. AKA Osram Hyper.

I cannot find any reference to the Rallye+ 65w H7 bulbs on the Osram website.

 

I am assuming that these things are NOT legal for street use.

I ordered a set of these from Daniel Stern (candlepower.com).

The label on the Osram box states: Competition Lamp Off-Road Application Only and if it helps in your search the model number is 64217 65W - PX26d

Anyone have any experiences with these guys?

I have bought from them several times for my previous Audi. Great company.

Yo Seb...go back to the first posts. I attached pix.

pix dissapeared. they are off-road only, genuine shit and came in individual sealed boxes.

So it looks like the only way to improve my vision at night is to break the law

That seems to be the case. But it is worth it.

Um, let me put it this way. If we're talking breaking the law, HIDs with no retrofit are WAY worse than the OSRams. With the OSRams you will NOT have dangerous glare levels, uneven spread pattern, "hotspots" etc. Basically, look at it this way: more light. That's it. They aren't too bright, there's probably regulation that needs to be adhered to and OSRam put that disclaimer on just to cover their bases. You'll be fine. What cop is going to check your friggin bulbs and especially why, assuming your headlamps are aimed right.

Order them with confidence, my friend.

So it looks like the only way to improve my vision at night is to break the law

Will any law enforcement officers be removing your bulbs to inspect them?

I am routinely blinded by new, off-the-showroom-floor 4x4 pickup trucks, and they have legal headlamps. The Osrams and HIRs on your car will be less offensive.