Daniel Stern Lighting and Subaru headlight options

[NateWA]

I saw on another website there were HIR low beam bulbs as well. Would these be better than the 65w rallye bulbs?

[outahere]

Thanks for the info.

Well then, since I am happy with the stock amount of light but I want yellow, maybe I should ask are the narva golds and hella comparable to stock but just yellow?.............

 

Don't the 55W yellow bulbs put out less than the "stock amount of light"?

[fishbone]

With foglights, it's not the amount of LIGHT that you're looking for, but CONTRAST. That's what truly helps in fog/rain/snow. Even if the yellow aftermarket pointed above do give off slightly less light, they're still superior.

[SuperhawkLGT]

Here's what Daniel Stern had to say about Hella and Narva Gold

 

He recommended I get these

http://store.candlepower.com/tugoseyeh355.html

Which I am ordering as we speak.

Price is per bulb, not pair.

Picked up a set of the GE tungsram golds, they look almost identical to the hella yellowstars I had in there at 85 watts! I only had one burnt out so I only replaced one. The GE actually looks a little brighter so I am going to leave the old hella in till it burns out.

[fishbone]

Good to know! Mine are set to arrive tomorrow

[fishbone]

I've installed the H3 yellow bulbs from Candle Power/Daniel Stern and I am happy with them. They pretty much look like what you see on a Lexus IS300. I'll take a picture and you guys will be able to compare the stock low-beams and fogs with HIDs and yellow fogs.

They seem to give off a bit more light than stock, but the most important thing is contrast, which they definitely create.

 

Has anyone here compared the Osram 65w Rallye bulbs with a plug'n'play HID kit, aka no projector retrofit? Please speak up, I'm not 100% happy with my HID spread and unfortunately I can't really afford to spend $60 just to plug the Osrams and see the comparison. If you're willing to lend them to me, I'll pay you. If I break them, I buy them. You will also get a nice comparison, with detailed pics and such.

[SubieDoobieDoo]

LOW BEAMS

Standard H7: 55w, 1400 lumens, 500 hours

H7 ultra "Plus+50": 55w, 1550 lumens, 225 hours, $17.50/ea

H7 rallye+65: 65w, 2100 lumens, 500 hours, $26.40/ea <--Obvious choice!

 

do I really need to address the HIGH BEAMS ?

stock: 9005, 12.8V, 65W, 1700 lumens, 320 hours

new: HIR1, 12.8V, 65W, 2530 lumens, 320 hours

 

FOG LIGHTS

Put H3 Gold bulbs ($13.50/ea) in the fog lamps.

 

===========

 

For longevity, just forget traditional “halogen / filament” technology. Change the H7 bulb to an after-market HID. I cannot possibly recommend “Apexcone” HID’s highly enough! You’ll get 3200 lumens vs 950 or something for the H7 and the life is 4x or 5x times - maybe more. No filament to burn out on the HID's - so they make great daylight-running lights - and the light output is simply incredible!!! You'll also get a much "whiter" light and use less electrical energy as these are rated as 35W.

 

For the HIGH beams, HID's are NOT recommended - for anyone (well, except race cars, perhaps). The ballast cannot survive the “flashing” and short on-times most HIGH beams are subjected to.

 

Yes, you DO need HIGH beams if your state / county / city has a vehicle inspection requirement. If you are deficient or missing HIGH beams, you will automatically fail your inspection. **THINK** before you allow someone to tell you that HIGH beams are not needed. They are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!

 

The best-of-the-best 9005 HIGH neam bulb is the PIAA "Intense White". Nothing else.

 

Your best automotive parts retailer can order them. The "Twin Pack” p/n is 10925. A “single” (???) is p/n 10915. The wattage used by each bulb is 60W but the light output - because of PIAA’s complete re-design - is that of 120W bulb. The color temperature is 4100K - white with no hint of blue.

 

Rgds,

[TSiWRX]

^ I honestly think that the HIR1s are much superior over any current standard-technology incandescent halogens - regardless of the claimed "power output" or color temperature.

[SubieDoobieDoo]

I honestly think that the HIR1s are much superior over any current standard-technology incandescent halogens - regardless of the claimed "power output" or color temperature.

 

Noted. However ... the HIR-1's and -2's are ....

 

1. Hard to find - and getting harder as this is a discontinued product. Great idea; GE "dropped the ball" by not engineering it for the automotive industry.

 

1a. EXPENSIVE!!! WOW!!!!!!

 

2. Not a true "direct replacement" for a 9005 - or any other 900X series; the dimensions are not the same.

 

3. Fragile. Illuminated, they are suceptible to premature failure due to on-the-road automotive vibrations.

 

Having just tossed my "dinosaur" 9007's, I'll stick with my heavy-duty hi/lo 35W HID's until there's something CLEARLY better out there.

 

Rgds,

[TSiWRX]

^ Those are good points, all.

 

The direct-replacement issue is a biggie. Even though the base modification required is truly minor and easily effected (even with only common household/gardening snips), there are those who would be unwilling to purchase the item because of this factor.

 

As for bulb/element fragility, I'm of the opinion - as with higher-than-stock powered vehicles - that you've simply gotta "pay to play," and that there is a trade-off to be made there. So far, I haven't found my set to be any less reliable/durable than many of the "brighter" aftermarket direct-replacements out there. Whether this factor will hold-out will be something that only time will tell, since the GE (with its high failure rate as an OEM piece in select applications) was phased out so early in its product-life (please note question below). So far, of the Scooby owners I know who have the Toshiba, none have reported problems, and some have had their bulbs since 2004.

 

As for the discontinuation, I thought that only the GE HIR1/2 were discontinued, and that the Phillips ("hybrid") as well as Toshiba HIR1/2 (9011/9012) bulbs were still actively on-market?

[fishbone]

Alright guys, I finally took some shots of my new Apexcone 5000k HID kit [no retrofit] and the fogs I was talking about.

Go here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/2005SubaruLegacyGT/photo#5077201040389015890

This is the first pic, just navigate to the right/next

They're actually not THAT yellow, the camera played some tricks, but the yellow is noticeable and so is the light output.

[SubieDoobieDoo]

yeah i would like some air craft landing lights for reverse on my shwagone

Aircraft bulbs are 24V - so I've been told - and would barely illuminate (if at all) on an automobile - and there are no standard automobile bulb holders to accept them. Aircraft bulbs are for aircraft. Automobile bulbs are for automobiles.

 

(This "aircraft landing light" thing is a 30-40 year old "urban myth" .... that needs to die!)

 

Rgds,

[SubieDoobieDoo]

I finally took some shots of my new Apexcone 5000k HID kit [no retrofit] and the fogs I was talking about.

 

Wow! Lookin' G-O-O-D! Isn't the increased light output amazing? This is how headlights are SUPPOSED to work! Well, DUH?!?! They're SUPPOSED to light the road ahead of you! (My reason for going with the 4,300K instead of the 5,000K versions was for maximum light lumens ...)

 

I'm not a "yellow fog light" fan but they certainly look good on YOUR beautiful GT sedan. I might have to look at changing ....

 

Only negative comment? Ugh! Snow! =

 

Rgds,

[fishbone]

The yellow is best for contrast, which is what you want in bad weather. HIDs and yellow fogs are probably the best match when snowing/raining. Don't know about fog with no retrofits, probably some glare for sure.

Like I said, I drive 10 miles on pitch-black roads sometimes when I go home after sunset. The peripheral light ain't blowing my hair back one bit.

I keep going back and forth between wanting to:

-buy the 65w Rallye lights to compare

-wait until at least spring to do so

-wait until spring to do a retrofit, which will set me back at least 500 bucks

 

SubieDoobieDoo, have you had stock HIDs before your Subaru on any previous car? I did. When I installed the Apexcone I had some high expectations, maybe a bit unreasonable too. I hooked them up, waited for dark, used them and the very first thought that came to my mind was ... "wow ... there sure is a LOT of light RIGHT in the front of the car". I personally think the kit isn't bad, but needs a retrofit.

 

But thanks for the positive comments and I appreciate the fact you think they look good. I definitely like the fogs.

[SubieDoobieDoo]

The direct-replacement issue is a biggie. Even though the base modification required is truly minor and easily effected (even with only common household/gardening snips), there are those who would be unwilling to purchase the item because of this factor.

Excellent retort! You're "on top of your game". I don't mind modifying a bulb; I don't want to modify the vehicle itself.

 

Still, I was looking for something - I.M.O. - more in-line with the zotsy HID's the techno-mobiles on the road have. I not only wanted "the look", I also wanted the added lumens (true lighting increase and improved visibility.)

 

That's why - after VERY careful consideration - I chose simple p-n-p ("plug-n-play") HID's. Took about 45 minutes to install them - WOW! They're just spectacularlly bright! - and I can finally see at night! - and I can also remove all the hardware and put the car back to 100% stock - in about 30 minutes - including re-installing some new 9007's for a new owner.

 

Didn't have to drill any holes, make ANY modifications whatsoever ... but if anyone chooses to make the same change to after-market HID's: WARNING! "Y.M.M.V."

 

Note: I've read Daniel Stern's website almost to memory. I agree with about 99-1/2 percent of everything he writes; he is truly a definitive word on automotive lighting. I'd never claim to know 1/10th of of 1 percent about automotive lighting that HE knows. In fact, he's forgotten more than I'll EVER "know".

 

But I know what I see and I know what I like - - - and I know how to get to that. Just takes a few $$$s.

 

Without modifications to the car or risk of wiring damage, I've tried every "halogen / xenon" incandescent (glowing filament) bulb ever made. And I've now rejected ALL of them for LOW beam lighting.

 

Until something far, FAR superior to after-market, lifetime guarantee HID's such as Apexcone or NBO (Never Burn Out) suppliers come along, I'm "sold" on these beautiful, bright, white HID's.

 

I've been driving for more than 44 years. Yes, my eyesight has aged with me. But I can FINALLY "see" to drive at night! For an old codger like ME, this benefits everyone around me, too! (As long as MY headlights don't blind THEM!)

 

Everyone: Please ... AIM YOUR HEADLIGHTS - whatever the bulbs used - CORRECTLY!!!!!

 

Rgds,

[TSiWRX]

Excellent retort! You're "on top of your game". I don't mind modifying a bulb; I don't want to modify the vehicle itself.

 

^ Not a retort at all - just pointing out that the modification is easy, by anyone's standards, but still, there are those who are not mechanically inclined nor may want to tamper with a product in such a way that it cannot be returned to the seller. That's definitely a valid concern, and as a fellow consumer, I always try to respect the needs of my brothers and sisters.

 

Note: I've read Daniel Stern's website almost to memory. I agree with about 99-1/2 percent of everything he writes; he is truly a definitive word on automotive lighting. I'd never claim to know 1/10th of of 1 percent about automotive lighting that HE knows. In fact, he's forgotten more than I'll EVER "know".

Stern's website is indeed a wealth of information. However, and I keep telling this to everyone I advise, it should be kept in-mind that his site is, after all, commercial in nature, and that it does paint a rosier picture of incandescents: the very products that he sells. To get the other side of the story in-full, informational Forums/d-boards like HIDPlanet, CandlePowerForums, etc. - where the benefits of HIDs, including all-out full-optics retrofits - should also be included in order to strike the proper counterbalance in terms of knowledge-base.

 

Yes, there's still a bunch of things that a well-engineered standard incandescent system will do very, very well, and may even be considered to be superior to current HID technology. However, the former has reached the end of its foreseeable road, and the latter keeps improving. This is where I think Stern's website falls-short, it focuses only on the "good" of the incandescents, and paints what, IMveryHO, is a rather bleak picture of HIDs. Sure, for the vast majority, considerations such as foreground flooding certainly makes a negative tick-mark on HIDs, but for specific uses - people with certain visual needs, or, for example, for those situations where foreground flooding would be a good thing (i.e. driving in-city, where ambient illumination can be so bright that it washes-out most conventional headlights) - HIDs are not nearly as bad as what the underlying tones there makes them out to be, and I think that this is where his bias shows.

 

I've been driving for more than 44 years. Yes, my eyesight has aged with me. But I can FINALLY "see" to drive at night! For an old codger like ME, this benefits everyone around me, too! (As long as MY headlights don't blind THEM!)

You may want to try slaving in a pair of auxiliary lights, too - either auxiliary low-beams or, if you have some special needs, a set of dedicated driving-lights or dedicated fog-lights.

 

Our factory fog-lamps do work (and work properly), however, particularly without some kind of compromise aiming, many feel that they are drastically underpowered and the pattern/throw compromised. With your unique vision needs, you may benefit under foul-weather situations with use of a good set of aftermarket fog lights.

 

Similarly, our fogs are ill-suited - even when completely re-aimed (and thus improperly aimed) - to serve as proper driving lights. A set of properly mounted (sister robinlsb has a very innovative solution, if preserving the aesthetics of your LGT's body-lines is of-importance to you) and aimed driving lights could greatly enhance distance throw and distance illumination, if lonely and desolate roads are more your needs.

 

 

 

Everyone: Please ... AIM YOUR HEADLIGHTS - whatever the bulbs used - CORRECTLY!!!!!

 

Totally!

 

Without doing so, it would be akin to driving on high-performance tires with the wrong tire-pressure! Great advice for anyone and everyone!

[outahere]

........To get the other side of the story in-full, informational Forums/d-boards like HIDPlanet, CandlePowerForums, etc. - where the benefits of HIDs, including all-out full-optics retrofits - should also be included in order to strike the proper counterbalance in terms of knowledge-base. ...............

 

If you want some more info, from those who do academic and engineering research on vehicle lighting, see;

 

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/transportation/vehicle.asp?section=13.1

[TSiWRX]

^ That's totally cool!!!!!! Thank you!!!!

 

Bookmarked for good weekend reading!

[fishbone]

I kickbanned that site on my router because it will tell me once again I need a retrofit for the HID and I'm in denial la la la can't hear you.

[TSiWRX]

outahere - Again, *thank you* for that link....awesome reads!

 

I haven't been able to read all of the papers just yet, but so far (I've gone through about 4 articles, on a random sampling of what interested me at first-glance), nothing really surprised me - with the exception of the "blue bulb" piece.

 

I was also a victim to the fad, back in the early 90s, of "blue bulbs" - granted, these were *extremely* blue. As such, I know, from first-hand experience, how poorly they illuminated the roadway (I loved, however, what they did to reflective road-signs). The data from the "blue bulb" article thus does surprise me, but I cannot correlate their spectral analysis with the more common ( after all, I am a layman in this respect ) "Kelvin" color-temperature measure.

 

I wonder where the "blue bulbs" they used in their experiments fell, in terms of how "blue" the output light happened to be. I would imagine that with support from Osram Sylvania, they'd have received properly engineered "blue bulbs" that were not of the victim-to-fashion type that I had used so long ago, and what brought about all the negativity regarding "blue bulbs."

 

Cool stuff! Thanks yet again!

[outahere]

I had a quick read of the blue bulb paper, and was also surprised about the benefits it had for peripheral vision. I don't think they tested the effect of the blue tint on forward vision, however.

 

Interestingly, the latest bulb from Osram, the NIGHT BREAKER, uses blue tint in two stripes around the bulb, rather than over the entire bulb. I am wondering if this is done to direct blue light to the periphery only.

[TSiWRX]

^ Definitely cool.....

 

I'll definitely have to give those bulbs a try, too. Still debating on if I want to mess with the wifey's WRX at all. She seems to really like the current lighting scheme for her driving needs, but when I drive it, I can feel a tremendous difference from my current setup on the LGT.

 

Maybe I'll give the new Osram NB's a try on her WRX. I know it won't be comparable, then, to the LGT, but it's hard justifying another set of bulbs.

[SubieDoobieDoo]

Not a retort at all - just pointing out that the modification is easy, by anyone's standards, but still, there are those who are not mechanically inclined nor may want to tamper with a product in such a way that it cannot be returned to the seller.

 

Whoa! My meaning of the word "retort" is "reply" - that's all. Dude, NO confrontations!!! I guess I should HAVE said "thanks for the "REPLY".

 

Man, let's exchange IDEAS and OPINIONS! Nothing else!!! (I like the 'repartee'!)

 

1, I **LOVE** my Sube **SO** much I'm not willing to make ANY non-stock mods to it that a re-buyer could be affected by any of them - other than the killer 200W Blaupunkt FM / CD stereo I installed.

 

2. MY Sube has 9007 headlights and H3 fogs ... therefore I'm EXTREMELY limited about what I *CAN* do - - - - and what I'm *WILLING* to do.

 

Example: I have people telling me to yank out *this* and replace it with *THAT* and I'm just not gonna do that if it means a buyer isn't getting an "as-stock" vehicle. It's a 1999 when I bought it; it's gonna be a 1999 when I sell it.

 

3. The head-lighting sucks! Period!!! For anyone with LESS than perfectly round headlights - both high and low - your factory housings are / were a design compromise for "looks" - - - and nothing else. That's where *I'M* stuck!!!

 

Previous car was a 280Z and the lighting options (for the era) were a real treat compared to the crap Subaru felt obliged to force upon me with the current car. So be it ............

 

4. The "Z-Car" had everything BUT decent lumens ... so if I could turn back the hands of time, I'd have my Cibie "Bo-Bi" lamp housings BUT with HID bulbs inside. I loved the razor-sharp cut-off of the Cibie's but the overall light output of the best-of-the-best H4 bulbs was pretty damned pathetic.

 

I added "extra" Marchal driving lights: Worthless. Felt as if I was driving with a mask on. So "it" ( not being able to 'see' at night) was not COMPLETELY a matter of housing design but simply of LIGHT output! Those high-tech Euro H4's were about as bright as my dumbest cat.

 

4a. IMO, my unscientific opinion of the US D.O.T. standards for headlight output has to do with the ability of oncoming drivers to see YOU - not for YOU to actually see where the Hell YOU'RE going!!!!

 

In addition, I maintain that a properly-designed housing - properly aimed - even with an INSANE amount of light output - is infinitely safer for EVERYONE - than a crappy housing with the crappiest of "stock" 55/65W "halogen" bulbs that blinds eveyone in the immediate vicinity.

 

Yes, yes, I've read Mr. Stern's website to boredom and this is where we disagree - or so it seems.

 

*I* say it's WAY past time we (the consumers) refuse to accept the crappy lighting designs forced upon us instead of DEMANDING properly-designed light fixtures and a sufficient amount of light output (lumens) so "we" can safely drive Interstate highway speeds without worry!!!

 

If it takes *ME* installing over-powered bulbs to do this, I'll do it in a New York-second ...............

 

I have spotlessly-clean headlights - I polish the lenses with plastic cleaner every week (to get rid of bugs and road grime) - also when I check my tyre pressures - and they are properly aimed.

 

I have 5,200 lumen, 4,300K HID bulbs and they are I-N-S-A-N-E-L-Y bright!!!! I mean REAL frickin' BRIGHT!!!! (My wife joked that I must be blistering the boot (trunk) paint of cars ahead of me - at 100m!!!)

 

Never had a single on-coming driver "flash" me - even with the fogs on - so it must not be the sheer brightness of the bulbs.

 

Even with the crappy factory housings, I'm clearly NOT not offending anyone in the opposite lane.

 

I rest my case ...

 

Rgds,

[outahere]

Based on this SAE abstract, it looks like Philips is working on a truly useful blue tinted bulb:

 

Title: New Headlamp Bulbs for Higher Peripheral Visibility and Reduced Discomfort Glare

Document Number: 2006-01-0715

 

Author(s):

Lukas Küpper - Philips Automotive Lighting

Albrecht Kraus - Philips Automotive Lighting

Klaus Schoeller - Philips Automotive Lighting

 

Abstract:

Recent studies have shown that with increase of the blue spectral content in the peripheral part of a headlamp beam pattern the visibility during night is also increased, especially at low ambient illumination. On the other hand several studies have shown that the blue spectral content of a headlamp, although having no significant influence on disability glare, nevertheless increases discomfort glare for the opposing traffic. It follows that the effect of color can positively be used to both increase visibility and reduce discomfort glare if (for right-hand traffic) it provides a maximum amount of blue spectral content in the right peripheral region and a minimum amount of blue spectral content in the left peripheral region, while still lying within SAE white.

 

Special light sources, to be used in conventional headlamps, have been developed to form such optimized beam patterns. The technology and optical properties of these light sources are presented, color measurements of representative headlamp beam patterns using these light sources are shown and their benefits regarding visibility for the driver and reduction of discomfort glare are deduced.

[TRS]

Already on the market. Philips NightGuide...

http://www.lighting.philips.com/europe/image_region/consumer_lighting/car_lighting/s_prod_h7_ng.jpg

 

http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/automotive/products/nightguide.php

 

Need H7S version for projector setup...

http://auto-lamp.pl/sklep/images/H7srNG.jpg