Your OWN innovations that actually HELP performance in some way

[boxkita]

Another splitter thread that caused comment - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/dustinsongers-time-attack-outback-build-192601.html

And mine that went nowhere - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/lgt-aero-devices-194212.html

 

For whoever (Penguin) commented on the badass-ness of the 302 Laguna Seca aero kit, I can only say its looks downright intimidating when its in your rear-view on the track.

 

OP, had you painted your splitter components all black, you might have received less trash talk. To each his own. I still dont get how it would work by forcing air under the car. Splitters work best by forcing more air up and around the top of the car causing downforce. A splitter that drove air under the car (unless you spent serious coin on aero tech) would only lift the front more. Adding side strakes would help with channeling the air from the splitter up and around the car creating more downforce. And as Bosco said, you have to moving (60+) before that aero really works, or you have to for really big aero bits (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads9/amodpcar1164813149.jpg).

[TSiWRX]

^ Damn, I've really been away too much. That's just flippin' awesome.

[boxkita]

A cautionary note: Be sure you are prepared when your aero goes awry, as this photo shows: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1JcDBbpc70w/TOhR7w1gxWI/AAAAAAAAA3U/Kl4sDEVNxqM/s1600/Le+Mans+1999+CLRflip5.jpg

 

Having serious aero devices is akin to have a really good 4x4 setup, it gets you just a bit farther out on the edge. Then again, if you were running street tires on the track and using aero to improve your lap times, you're still stuck in the parking lot.

[nightspeed98]

how about we just let this one go. Its a NEW YEAR!

[famaya26]

Sorry dude but this looks hideous!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/01/sudymebe.jpg

[ripemeat]

surprised you didn't use the metal rods to support the leading end from folding....

[Mill]

OP. I commend you on your work. From a functional standpoint it is not necessarily supposed to look good. Looks like it is well built, but I'm going to have to agree with others and say I dislike it. That is purely coming from a DD standpoint. It would not stand up to the roads around here. If I had a purely a track car, I could see the benefit in some aggresive aero gear such as this (where nobody should really give a fuck about looks. Its all function.).

 

Half the people on these forums call fabrication throwing shit together with duct tape and zipties. Props to you for going out and designing something and putting the effort in to get it done. A properly well done car can get some decent benefits from proper underbody modifications such as fuel savings on the road and decreased lap times at the track.

 

On another note, I do like what you did with that grill. Looks great. If you like it, dont let anybody convince you to take it off. If the splitter works as it should (splits the air cleanly going above and below the car, creates downforce depending on the angle, etc.) then I dont see why you wouldnt use it at the track. Most of the splitters/lips for the LGT that you can buy do not actually function as a splitter and are purely an aesthetic modification.

 

surprised you didn't use the metal rods to support the leading end from folding....

 

Not sure if sarcasm. But it probably wouldnt be a bad idea. If you are using a thin material the last thing you'd want is for it to get caught and sucked under the car. I'm limited in knowledge on aero design, but I assume a proper splitter uses the thinnest material possible and uses rods to prevent the splitter from being pushed down too far. You could probably even take it to the extreme and sharpen the edge and take peoples feet off.

[Nolmers06LGT]

This thread had me rolling. The best part was that in the middle of all of the comedy, there were actually a few decent ideas worth looking into. Followed by more hilarious comments.

 

OP- you got flamed for posting about your splitter in the other thread. Then you started a new one and began it by calling out the phonies who can't do anything better than bolt on mods. Did you really expect that to go over well? Fail.

 

It's funny that you talk about bolt-ons like they are a cop-out. The companies that develop those parts have spent more total hours than you've lived to develop said parts.. my money is on their innovations over your splitter.

[JmP6889928]

This thread had me rolling. The best part was that in the middle of all of the comedy, there were actually a few decent ideas worth looking into. Followed by more hilarious comments.

 

OP- you got flamed for posting about your splitter in the other thread. Then you started a new one and began it by calling out the phonies who can't do anything better than bolt on mods. Did you really expect that to go over well? Fail.

 

It's funny that you talk about bolt-ons like they are a cop-out. The companies that develop those parts have spent more total hours than you've lived to develop said parts.. my money is on their innovations over your splitter.

 

Here is EXACTLY what I said:

 

So I decided to put up this thread to see just exactly what you've actually innovated yourself that improves the performance of your own car. This is not to include bolt-ons that Cobb or Perrin or AVO or someone else has already done all of the research on, but actual innovations that YOU personally have come up with, fabricated, installed, and proven with hard data that make the car faster or handle better or get better gas mileage etc.

 

It says NOTHING about bolt on upgrades being bad and I'm as glad as everyone else that they exist. I have many on my own car.

[JmP6889928]

OP. I commend you on your work. From a functional standpoint it is not necessarily supposed to look good. Looks like it is well built, but I'm going to have to agree with others and say I dislike it. That is purely coming from a DD standpoint. It would not stand up to the roads around here. If I had a purely a track car, I could see the benefit in some aggresive aero gear such as this (where nobody should really give a fuck about looks. Its all function.).

 

Half the people on these forums call fabrication throwing shit together with duct tape and zipties. Props to you for going out and designing something and putting the effort in to get it done. A properly well done car can get some decent benefits from proper underbody modifications such as fuel savings on the road and decreased lap times at the track.

 

On another note, I do like what you did with that grill. Looks great. If you like it, dont let anybody convince you to take it off. If the splitter works as it should (splits the air cleanly going above and below the car, creates downforce depending on the angle, etc.) then I dont see why you wouldnt use it at the track. Most of the splitters/lips for the LGT that you can buy do not actually function as a splitter and are purely an aesthetic modification.

 

 

 

Not sure if sarcasm. But it probably wouldnt be a bad idea. If you are using a thin material the last thing you'd want is for it to get caught and sucked under the car. I'm limited in knowledge on aero design, but I assume a proper splitter uses the thinnest material possible and uses rods to prevent the splitter from being pushed down too far. You could probably even take it to the extreme and sharpen the edge and take peoples feet off.

 

Thank you for your post. In regards to the splitter in the front needing heim joint supports, I've had a driver next to me at 125+ mph and he said it had absolutely no movement whatsoever. I really thought about it just as you said because the last thing I wanted was to have it fold up and go under the car entering a fast sweeping corner. The way it's mounted and supported to the subframe behind the rack and pinion, it's very strong and lexan is pretty indestructible.

[nightspeed98]

Nasioc is rubbing off here. unsubscribing.

[derp]

So I decided to put up this thread to see just exactly what you've actually innovated yourself that improves the performance of your own car...words and stuff... actual innovations that YOU personally have come up with, fabricated, installed, and proven with hard data that make the car faster or handle better or get better gas mileage etc.

 

and yet you haven't provided any of your own. Aside from creating an aesthetic abortion and attaching it to the front of your car, you have no actual data to support your claims that it's in any way functional. ok, so you can adjust the angle. does it have flashing lights too? can it make me coffee?

 

better lap times could mean anything, and without actual HARD DATA (like you're asking for) to back it up, it could be as simple as increased confidence after the doing it. hell, it's entirely possible that the reason you increased your lap times is because you're more familiar with the track than the last time you drove it. Maybe the temperatures were lower so you weren't heat soaking as bad. maybe the track was cleaner so your tires gripped better.

 

There's a million different factors that go into 'effective aero', not to mention at all having consistent lap times, and just saying 'my butt dyno sez it's bettar' doesn't PROVE anything.

 

track run A to track run B, were you on the same tires? are they your daily driver tires? was the air temperature the same? was the track temperature the same? were your tire temps the same? were your brakes fading? did you have the same amount of gas in your car? did you take a dump prior? any little thing can have a big impact on overall times, and without emplacing some sort of 'control' data, there's not much to stand on.

 

 

all that being said, however, better lap times are better lap times. if whatever you end up doing to your car, be it placebo effect or actual increases in capability, gets you around the track faster and you have fun with it, then hey. do whatever you want.

[csbrown28]

Though I can't claim I've done it, I've given some thought on putting a radiator fan under my TMIC to draw fresh air in through the scoop. The switch for the fan could simply be wired into the radiator wiring which would under most circumstances would come on at when the TMIC has reached a point it is becoming heat soaked.

 

Front mount is still better, but given the cost, potential ease to mount and, if it's important, maintaining OEM appearance. Add to that the fact that it should cost less then $100 it seems to me that it would be a simple low cost improvement, mostly to prevent a heat soaked IC on hot days when your stuck in traffic or waiting on the line.

 

Now I'm going to run for cover....

[lieutenantcolumbo]

frank_ster had one at one point, so its documented on here.

 

Also they used to sell one on JapanParts for a couple hundred bucks.

[csbrown28]

frank_ster had one at one point, so its documented on here.

 

Also they used to sell one on JapanParts for a couple hundred bucks.

 

Found it here:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/50-mod-eliminate-intercooler-heat-soak-101759.html

[MasAyinde]

Still waiting for OP to provide hard data with minimal variables to prove that this splitter is beneficial.

[boxkita]

^^^ Wind tunnel time is damned expensive

[MasAyinde]

If that's why he doesn't have any, then he shouldn't be flapping his yapper and asking everyone else to back up mods with hard data.

[StoplightAssassin]

If you can't stand on it, it isn't functional. Troof.

[MasAyinde]

Agreed. These things are supposed to be producing hundreds of lbs of downforce, so standing on them shouldn't be an issue at all

[boxkita]

Based on hard track data, if the front splitter is flapping, it helps the car go faster. Adding a wobbling wing on the back is even more effective.

[JmP6889928]

OK...just got home because had to work. Here's some information on the testing that we did BEFORE I actually drove the car:

 

The splitter forces air through the opening between the bumper cover and the splitter itself. I have reinforced the lower skid plate/cover so that it's very stiff and it creates a venturi type of effect when the air is forced into that restricted space. The splitter goes all the way back to the front edge of the front wheel wells so it's length makes the venturi effect work.

 

We tested it in a friend of mine's homemade wind tunnel which is not really a wind tunnel but simply a sealed long garage with a couple of high volume fans and a smoke machine that emits a steady stream of smoke. He uses it to adjust the spoilers on his asphalt late model stock cars and it really makes a huge difference. He's been track champion at KMS 6 times in the past 9 years so I believe him when he says it helps to adjust ahead of time using the smoke. We set the car up on the race tires and used the smoke to follow the trail through the splitter opening and the speed of the smoke increased noticeably, telling us that there is, in fact, a venturi effect happening.

 

I'm going to do a lot more experimentation with this design and I may end up scrapping it for a different design or I may trim it shorter or I may....well, you get the picture. It's a work in progress but at least it's forward progress. I can feel the difference when I drive it in high speed stability and turn in on long fast sweeping corners, and it's shown me to have gained almost 2 seconds a lap on a track I know quite well, in just about identical conditions, so I believe in it. I know I personally could be a much better driver, but I've driven cars that work and cars that don't and the ones that work are a hell of a lot easier and a lot more fun to drive. I want mine to be one of the ones that someone gets in, drives, and says, "wow, that car really is easy to go fast in".

 

I have had another car next to me at 125+ mph and the splitter does not move at all in the wind. He pulled in front of me and watched out the rear and no movement.

[JmP6889928]

Though I can't claim I've done it, I've given some thought on putting a radiator fan under my TMIC to draw fresh air in through the scoop. The switch for the fan could simply be wired into the radiator wiring which would under most circumstances would come on at when the TMIC has reached a point it is becoming heat soaked.

 

Front mount is still better, but given the cost, potential ease to mount and, if it's important, maintaining OEM appearance. Add to that the fact that it should cost less then $100 it seems to me that it would be a simple low cost improvement, mostly to prevent a heat soaked IC on hot days when your stuck in traffic or waiting on the line.

 

Now I'm going to run for cover....

 

That sounds like a very practical, doable, and measurable idea. Perhaps have it run on a temperature sensor put in the upper radiator hose or you could have it run on the EGT if you still are using it. Would you rather have it pull through the TMIC or push through from the top?

[JmP6889928]

and yet you haven't provided any of your own. Aside from creating an aesthetic abortion and attaching it to the front of your car, you have no actual data to support your claims that it's in any way functional. ok, so you can adjust the angle. does it have flashing lights too? can it make me coffee?

 

better lap times could mean anything, and without actual HARD DATA (like you're asking for) to back it up, it could be as simple as increased confidence after the doing it. hell, it's entirely possible that the reason you increased your lap times is because you're more familiar with the track than the last time you drove it. Maybe the temperatures were lower so you weren't heat soaking as bad. maybe the track was cleaner so your tires gripped better.

 

There's a million different factors that go into 'effective aero', not to mention at all having consistent lap times, and just saying 'my butt dyno sez it's bettar' doesn't PROVE anything.

 

track run A to track run B, were you on the same tires? are they your daily driver tires? was the air temperature the same? was the track temperature the same? were your tire temps the same? were your brakes fading? did you have the same amount of gas in your car? did you take a dump prior? any little thing can have a big impact on overall times, and without emplacing some sort of 'control' data, there's not much to stand on.

 

 

all that being said, however, better lap times are better lap times. if whatever you end up doing to your car, be it placebo effect or actual increases in capability, gets you around the track faster and you have fun with it, then hey. do whatever you want.

 

You are correct in many factors could make quite a difference. To answer your questions in order, here they are:

 

Same tires at same tire pressure and they are not DD tires. I run Kumho Ecsta SPTs 225/40x18 with front pressure generally at about 38 and rear at 36 psi. I have adjusted them softer on occasion however at these pressures the sidewalls seem to be just stiff enough to not wallow in hard sharp corners. I will be purchasing some new tires this spring-not sure exactly yet but leaning towards Kumho Ecsta XS in a 235/40x18 mounted on Rota DP1 18x8's.

Air temperature was about 1 degree different-warmer-and I did not measure track temperature but the day was almost identical to the day I had run immediately before.

Absolutely no brake fade-I completely flush brake system before every track day and the pads (Hawk HP+) and rotors (Centric Cryo) on all 4 wheels only had about 60 miles on them from new. I also have a simple brake fluid cooler that I made that seems to work well. I can't remember the last time I had any kind of brake fade.

I ALWAYS take a dump prior. I don't want to scare the shit out of myself if I happen to run off the track...LOL

I always hit the track with about 1/2 tank of gas and it was the same Sunoco 93 octane with 1/2 cup of Marvel Mystery Oil per 5 gallons I always run.

[StoplightAssassin]

OK...just got home because had to work. Here's some information on the testing that we did BEFORE I actually drove the car:

 

The splitter forces air through the opening between the bumper cover and the splitter itself. I have reinforced the lower skid plate/cover so that it's very stiff and it creates a venturi type of effect when the air is forced into that restricted space. The splitter goes all the way back to the front edge of the front wheel wells so it's length makes the venturi effect work.

 

We tested it in a friend of mine's homemade wind tunnel which is not really a wind tunnel but simply a sealed long garage with a couple of high volume fans and a smoke machine that emits a steady stream of smoke. He uses it to adjust the spoilers on his asphalt late model stock cars and it really makes a huge difference. He's been track champion at KMS 6 times in the past 9 years so I believe him when he says it helps to adjust ahead of time using the smoke. We set the car up on the race tires and used the smoke to follow the trail through the splitter opening and the speed of the smoke increased noticeably, telling us that there is, in fact, a venturi effect happening.

 

I'm going to do a lot more experimentation with this design and I may end up scrapping it for a different design or I may trim it shorter or I may....well, you get the picture. It's a work in progress but at least it's forward progress. I can feel the difference when I drive it in high speed stability and turn in on long fast sweeping corners, and it's shown me to have gained almost 2 seconds a lap on a track I know quite well, in just about identical conditions, so I believe in it. I know I personally could be a much better driver, but I've driven cars that work and cars that don't and the ones that work are a hell of a lot easier and a lot more fun to drive. I want mine to be one of the ones that someone gets in, drives, and says, "wow, that car really is easy to go fast in".

 

I have had another car next to me at 125+ mph and the splitter does not move at all in the wind. He pulled in front of me and watched out the rear and no movement.

 

LOL. A splitter's purpose is to direct air AROUND the car, not under or in many cases not through it. In the case of a splitter directing the air through a car (LMP, TOCA, BTCC, GT500 etc.), the air follows a smooth, guided path through the car and out of a vent. Otherwise, you're creating drag. The splitter has to extend behind the front wheel well to actually work.

 

 

You are correct in many factors could make quite a difference. To answer your questions in order, here they are:

 

Same tires at same tire pressure and they are not DD tires. I run Kumho Ecsta SPTs 225/40x18 with front pressure generally at about 38 and rear at 36 psi. I have adjusted them softer on occasion however at these pressures the sidewalls seem to be just stiff enough to not wallow in hard sharp corners. I will be purchasing some new tires this spring-not sure exactly yet but leaning towards Kumho Ecsta XS in a 235/40x18 mounted on Rota DP1 18x8's.

Air temperature was about 1 degree different-warmer-and I did not measure track temperature but the day was almost identical to the day I had run immediately before.

Absolutely no brake fade-I completely flush brake system before every track day and the pads (Hawk HP+) and rotors (Centric Cryo) on all 4 wheels only had about 60 miles on them from new. I also have a simple brake fluid cooler that I made that seems to work well. I can't remember the last time I had any kind of brake fade.

I ALWAYS take a dump prior. I don't want to scare the shit out of myself if I happen to run off the track...LOL

I always hit the track with about 1/2 tank of gas and it was the same Sunoco 93 octane with 1/2 cup of Marvel Mystery Oil per 5 gallons I always run.

 

No wonder why you think you're fast. HP+ are good for autox and light track use. You've never over heated them because you don't push the car hard enough. I don't know why anyone would consider Kumho XSes at this point in time. They were old news 2 years ago.

 

And I definitely have to comment about your brake fluid cooler. That sounds like an excellent idea. I'm sure many racing teams will benefit from your knowledge. I'd like to see your setup because BRAKE FLUID DOES NOT CIRCULATE!!!!!!!