"Studdering" Fix Released

[TSiWRX]

else1,

 

We should get together some time - maybe in the coming month?

 

I honestly do not think that Winky studders much, if at all - but then again, the local roads here are so crappy that I really have not had a PERFECT test session, either.

 

-A

[Legacy_Fan]

As I wrote months ago, if you have less than 1/2 tank of fuel, there is no studdering. I no longer fill up and no longer have the problem. I also use shitty 91 Kalifornia gas. And this is not a weight thing, because I can have 5 passengers with the same results. Not sure why, just know it works.

[mkalbarc]

^^

doesn't work for me. I was on a 1/4 tank yesterday and it was doing it all day.

[neelnug]

Went to the dealer today to look at an Outback for my wife. I asked the service guy about the fix and he said it would be no problem. Drop the car off in the morning and he would have the ECU reprogrammed and back in the car by the end of the day. He said they would send it out with their daily parts run.

[eldiablo]

Which dealer was this at? I may want to avoid them...

 

The dealer was Miller in Mt Holly. Their reaction proves to me that they have indeed heard of this issue but are not one of the dealers willing to escalate. I personally, am not going to do anything until I have at least 5k miles on the vehicle to see if it "learns" its way out of it, or to see if SOA issues anything formally in the meantime. I will also test drive an 06 next time I am there to compare the difference. If it is significant, you can bet that me and my completely stock LGT that's only ever had 94 octane will create a ruckus to get it fixed. Until then... I still love my car! and I will deal with this issue.

[outahere]

If Cobb came out with a map that focused on getting rid of the stutter, I would be very interested in that. Even if it didn't put out as much power as their current stage 1 map, I think I'd go with it anyhow. As long as it was putting out at least factory power.

 

Didn't Vishnu Tuning resolve this stuttering issue months ago? As I recall, they changed the calibration on the throttle-by-wire and on closed/open loop switch over parameters, resulting in elimination of stutter.

[DKB_SATX]

I think there are some big mis-conceptions regarding this studdering issue...and I would argue that a majority of the studdering issues would stop if people:

A) Would stop resetting their ECM's every other week.

B) Use a Top Tier Fuel

C) Stop monkeying with things on the car you really don't understand.

 

....

 

I can speak only for myself and my particular car. With just under 8000 miles on my car, its ECU has been reset once, by the dealer, at 3k miles when I brought the car in for the 3k service and complained of the surging/hesitation/whateverYouWantToCallIt.

 

I started off using mostly Diamond Shamrock 93 octane, which gave me over 80,000 miles of surging-free driving in my turbocharged GTI. Then the service manager gave me his snake-oil spiel about TopTier and I've been using Shell VPower 93 octane, with no discernible difference.

 

Since it's a new, fully-warranted car and I'm the kind of schmuck who'll make the dealer fix what needs to be fixed, I haven't "monkeyed" with anything.

 

So, I realize you followed your list of action items up by saying this would help those of us with an actual problem to get it fixed, but you must admit that your statements made it sound like most owners who have this problem have created it themselves, which I think is a total crock. When I demonstrated the surging problem for the shop foreman last week, he thought for a moment and said that he had noticed similar behavior in a number of other turbo Legacies, and seemed pleased when he got off the phone from finding out that the Techline has a fix. There is something wrong with my car that should NOT be wrong with a $30k car from a reputable manufacturer.

 

I'm making no guesses about whether or not Subaru's reprogramming of the ECU will reduce or eliminate the problem I have with my car. It won't cost me anything but the 12-mile drive to the dealer and the awful torture of driving a cloth-seat, non-turbo Outback instead of my LGT Ltd for a few days... how will I survive?

 

Yes, this is annoying... but I've gotten more and better service from my dealer and from SoA on this one issue than I got from VW in 3 cars and 15 years. I'm going to cut SoA some slack for a while longer.

 

DKB

[mwiener2]

It's extremely easy to prove that is not operator error. It can be reproduced on any new car on the lot. Which is exactly how I proved it to my dealer. I made them ride with me in a new 2.5 turbo and I reproduced it...in a 5EAT to boot.

[Variant]

Opie... you really lost my respect with that post... making claims like that without even knowing what the majority of people really do with their cars. You don't ride with me... you don't know what gas I put in.. you don't know how many miles we have on our car.

 

I have 11,800 miles on my LGT unlimited. It has had this problem since day one. I have used various top tier gasolines in it from here in Utah, where we are unfortunately limited to 91 octane. This is NOT MY FAULT.

 

I have NEVER EVEN ONCE reset the ECU in my car. The only time it has been reset is when the dealer took it out last week to send it off to have this "fix" applied... which did NOT fix it AT ALL.

 

Maybe the reason you don't feel it is because you learned to drive without causing it - I learned right after we got the car what not to do... and the car never stutters when I drive it. But... what about when I am trying to go easy on it and shifting at 2500 in first... and i end up just under 2000 in second... and I need to step on it to pass somebody in front of me that just pulled out? LUNGE LUNGE LUNGE LUNGE LUNGE SHUDDER SHUDDER SHUDDER... all the way to about 3500 rpm.. from 50% throttle!!! It is totally 100% completely ridiculous... ESPECIALLY WITH DRIVE BY WIRE...

 

To fix this, they could just restrict throttle to the lower-non-whiplash-causing-throttle between 2k-3k RPM instead of allowing it to go to this 50% throttle crap that causes the surging! I would have been happy with that as long as it didn't affect normal full-throttle acceleration in first gear between those RPMs where it primarily doesn't happen because the gear goes by so quickly.

 

Bottom line is... this problem is NOT related to fuel... it is NOT related to driver error... it IS related to the computer in the car.. and as much as I don't like Deer Killer's general attitude on this forum (*poke poke*), I have to agree with him on calling your post a bunch of bull. It is. You post about a "fix" for a recognized issue nearly the ENTIRE 2005 LGT COMMUNITY HAS and then... you call us a bunch of people using low grade gas and making the issue up? Honestly.. wtf?

 

It is a good thing that the car is such a great value and that it has a great aftermarket because Subaru service absolutely sucks.

[rotaryracer]

Stopped by my dealer yesterday to inquire about the surging - I've got an early '05 with about 14,000 miles. They told me they checked with Subaru and the ECM reflash does not apply to my car as the VIN is not within the range. They also stated that my car has the most recent ECM logic (assuming it's because I don't fall within VIN range). IS there are a VIN range for this fix or does it apply to all 49-state + CA/NY emissions-equipped 5MT LGTs?

 

Mine may not be afflicted as bad as some of yours (or I've just grown accustomed to driving around the behavior), but just wanted to let you all know what I heard. I only use 93 octane gas, but we don't have any 'Top Tier' gas retailers in the area. I'll probably AP and UP/DP the car at the end of the warranty period anyway, so I'd like to thank SoA for writing crappy ECM code that helps justify my purchase of speed mods.

 

By the way, the tech that drove my car 'could not reproduce the problem', even though I told the service desk it primarily occurs from cold start and you don't drive it like you stole it.

 

Jason

[Opie]

Bottom line is... this problem is NOT related to fuel... it is NOT related to driver error... it IS related to the computer in the car.[/Quote]

 

You say it can't be driver error yet you also say:

 

Maybe the reason you don't feel it is because you learned to drive without causing it - I learned right after we got the car what not to do... and the car never stutters when I drive it.[/Quote]

 

You post about a "fix" for a recognized issue nearly the ENTIRE 2005 LGT COMMUNITY HAS and then... you call us a bunch of people using low grade gas and making the issue up? Honestly.. wtf?[/Quote]

 

WTF? It's simple. I believe there are some cars that have a legitiment problem, I also know there are far more that have no problem at all. How do I know this? Because of all the Legacy/Outback turbo's we have sold only one has complained about a surging or studdering. Compare this to the 50 or so that complained about the carpet hook and you get an idea on how the problem isn't quite as common. SOA has been able to replicate the issue in a certain "batch" of ECU's and has a reprogram available to address it. Low grade gas CAN and DOES cause misfires, those can be bad enough at times to actually feel them. I never said anyone was "making the issue up" I was simply offering a few more possible causes that nobody wants to even consider.

 

...because Subaru service absolutely sucks.

 

I challenge you to work in a Service department...for any brand car and you'll be amazed at what you will learn about the general public and the concern of the parent company. I can tell you Subaru does take Customer concerns very seriously.

[Variant]

Look, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match on this public forum.. but Opie... the fact that I learned how to get around this problem that the LGT DOES HAVE does not mean that NOT getting around it is driver error. Driver error is trying to start from 0mph in 3rd gear. Driver error is NOT putting 50% throttle at 2000 RPM in second gear. This is NORMAL behaviour that LGT owners must avoid doing... and it is ridiculous.

 

This stuttering problem is simply one of the issues this car has that most of us have to live with - however, that does NOT mean that it is acceptable behavior, especially considering other tuners have managed to tune out this problem.

 

Cobb.. for example... here in Utah.. on 91 octane.

 

So... shove it.. okay? Stop being a jerk that thinks all your customers just ruin their cars and can't drive at all and make things up. My car had the "fix" done from Subaru (Feel free to call Nate Wade Subaru and ask about a red GT with the fix done in the last week.. you are internal after all) and it has the same problem it has always had. The car is stock. ECU never reset. The fix is bull. Your response to the fix not working... is bull. I'd be really interested to find out what Subaru really thinks this fix was supposed to fix... because it does not feel any different than before.

[eles1]

I'm calling this...

 

A. Wtf??? Find me anyone who says the stutter increases after a ECU reset. Better yet, make a video of you doing this and then subsequently demonstrating stutter for proof.

 

B. Top tier fuels are not necessary, the car is sold in the NA market to run on 91 octane, it must be designed with enough tolerance for the available gas. Yes, "tolerance" this is called "engineering". Nevermind the gas issue is bullshit, actually I'd believe the car should run smoother if you put 87 in, as the ECU is in full panic mode and pulling back timing to it's lowest levels. Not to mention even with the 91 requirement many of us are running 93/94 octane.

 

C. First of all, you would be surprised as to what level some people on this board "understand" their cars, and to what level subaru affiliated people do not. Only the people who've monkeyed with their cars, to say, a stage 2 monkey, seem to have livable results. I'm not even talking about these people though.

 

The ECU is not a magic box, because if it was, it might actually work properly. This is an algorithm problem. It probably really needs to be taken up with Denso.

 

+1

[eles1]

Didn't Vishnu Tuning resolve this stuttering issue months ago? As I recall, they changed the calibration on the throttle-by-wire and on closed/open loop switch over parameters, resulting in elimination of stutter.

 

I've also read that Vishnu claimed to have been successful at eliminating the stutter completly, but I haven't heard of any first person testimonials (from LGT.com or otherwise), so I never investigated further. Cobb's stage 1 tuning makes it significantly better. I'm sure a talented tuner could get rid of it completely if that was their main focus..

[eles1]

else1,

 

We should get together some time - maybe in the coming month?

 

I honestly do not think that Winky studders much, if at all - but then again, the local roads here are so crappy that I really have not had a PERFECT test session, either.

 

-A

 

Anytime. Just PM me a few days ahead and we'll get together and compare notes.

 

...but only if you promise to spell my username correctly next time...

[TSiWRX]

Dangit, calling a neighbor by the wrong name is embarassing, to say the least!

 

eles1

 

 

-A

[mwiener2]

 

 

I challenge you to work in a Service department...for any brand car and you'll be amazed at what you will learn about the general public and the concern of the parent company. I can tell you Subaru does take Customer concerns very seriously.

 

 

I do service calls for AC and heat. The general public is a very, very, sorry bunch. Half my calls are actual problems, the other half is just plain stupid people.

[S4]

I do service calls for AC and heat. The general public is a very, very, sorry bunch. Half my calls are actual problems, the other half is just plain stupid people.

I agree with this, and I can understand that most service departments have to have a filter that all complaints go through to figure out the valid ones and shield away the ones that will just waste time.

 

At this point, I don't think I care enough to waste any more of my time to try to get this fixed. Yes, it's annoying, but I've only ever had one passenger notice it, and that was going uphill, where it's most pronounced. Now, if I lived in SF, I'd be a bit more eager to get this fixed right away, but until there's a TSB or recall, I'm just not going to waste my time. I thought it may be a quick easy fix, so it was worth a shot to make my car run a bit bitter.

 

FWIW, I have 16k miles, the only time my ECU was reset was when my dealer was trying to fix the issue, and I am bone stock. I usually fill up at Amoco, but I'm willing to try a "top tier" fuel to see if it makes any difference at all. I'm not cheap, it's just the closest thing to home. All of those are way out of the way, but I'm up for some troubleshooting.

[motion_157]

Here's an interesting question. Do you think people would have realized this studdering problem if it weren't posted on the board? I, myself, notice this problem now, but I don't know if I would have been aware of it if I didn't read it off of this site to begin with. I think I would have just thought this was normal. Anyone else not realize this problem until reading the forum? Granted I've only had my car about two weeks before I read about the problem, but maybe I would have noticed anyway after a longer period of driving the car.

[SBT]

I definitely noticed it almost immediately but thought I'd wait until my break-in mileage was done. I was driving and thinking what the heck is this, it was that sudden and intense. I had heard that this was occuring and asked others if they had similar experiences at what throttle/gear settings and it was totally consistent with what I had experienced. I expected it to go away with ECU learning and mileage buildup but at 10K, I'm ready for SOA to fix this, I'm that frustrated with it.

 

SBT

[outahere]

I suspect that Subaru will never have a total solution to this problem because they are restrained by federal emission laws, and any reflash of the ECU cannot result in an increase of exhaust emissions. On the other hand, aftermarket tuners do not have to comply with emissions laws, and have far greater latitude than Subaru when it comes to ECU reprogramming. Either that, or the Subaru engine management engineers are not very smart.

[Deer Killer]

I suspect that Subaru will never have a total solution to this problem because they are restrained by federal emission laws.

How does bucking reduce emissions?

 

Oh, and I probably had the car for a good 300 miles before I noticed it, but thought I was still getting used to the throttle. At about 600 I got a full on "WTF is that??" from a passenger.

[OCDetails]

I noticed it right away but I thought it might just be part of breaking in the car. I was also learning how to drive a car without an 8200 RPM redline. Once I got used to driving the car and I felt the car was broken in I became concerned that it was still happening. I know its not something that is normal. I know that I can drive it like a retarded grandma, but WTF did I buy a car that I need to drive like a retarded grandma for?? I thought I bought a Subaru that would be a little smoother than this. This is absolutely not normal for a car. I refuse to believe that its just my inability to drive a car that does this. Everybody who has driven my car has said this.

[NiteOwl561]

I have put 1500 mi on mine and have not noticed any thing. Granted, I just picked mine up on 07/01/05, so it may be the fact that my car is a newer build. Also, what do you guys consider "Top Tier"? I know that in Ohio fuel Octane has to be regulated by the (R+M)/2 method (at least I think that is what it is). I know that some stations may not have the cleaners or other additives, but isn't 93 octane, 93 octane, or am I missing something?

[mkalbarc]

I have put 1500 mi on mine and have not noticed any thing. Granted, I just picked mine up on 07/01/05, so it may be the fact that my car is a newer build. Also, what do you guys consider "Top Tier"? I know that in Ohio fuel Octane has to be regulated by the (R+M)/2 method (at least I think that is what it is). I know that some stations may not have the cleaners or other additives, but isn't 93 octane, 93 octane, or am I missing something?

 

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html