Oils that our cars DON'T eat?

[0Tyrael0]

0Tyrael0. A 0w40 from some brands will be similar to a 10w30 at 40C and thicker than a 30 at 100C. Sometimes the 0w40 will be closer to a 15w30 at 40C and thicker at a high temp. You are right however that at all temps a 0w40 will be thicker than a 0w30. It is not that cut and dry. It is a range, but ranges overlap, especially when comparing dino and synthetic oils. Many 0w40s will have a lower pour point than a 5w30, even if the 5w30 is synthetic.

 

Oh and subaru recommends a 5w40 for hot weather or hard driving.

 

I dont know what subaru recommend for hard driving because I am actually fairly new to subarus but I will take your word for it. Again everything else you said I agree with 100%. I did fail to mention that some of the ranges overlap. I did mention that there are differences in dino and synthetic oils of the same weight. Also actual weights will vary between brands however not by that much.

[johnAWD]

Where do you find it? I used to use the German Castrol, but haven't been able to find any recently.

 

I asked my local O'Reilly auto parts to get me a couple of cases, they had them in hand the next day.

[0Tyrael0]

Not true. That's the whole reason why 0w oils are recommended for cars which see extreme cold conditions, because the 0w oils are thinner than 5w and 10w oils at freezing temperatures.

 

If you read what I said you would know why that is not true. 0w40 is thicker in cold temps than 5w30. Thats not my opinion its a fact. 0w40 is thicker than 10w30 in cold temperatures, again not my opinion its a fact. Remember 0w does not mean it is actually weighted at 0. Its just a number representing its range of weights as it changes temperature. 0w40 has a wider range than 10w30. Thats all that it means. In fact if you hold and shake a quart of 5w30 and then you do the same with the 0w40 you will probably notice that the 5w30 is thinner just by this test. Try it sometime. Then try the 0w40 next to the 5w20. Then you will really see a difference.

[0Tyrael0]

Where do you find it? I used to use the German Castrol, but haven't been able to find any recently.

 

To clear up the weight argument (maybe), The first number is the oil's "winter". It indicates the viscosity of the oil at 0 degrees F. The second number is the viscosity at 210 degrees F. In other words a 5w-30 acts like a 5 weight oil at 0 F and a 30 weight at 210 F. A 0w-40 acts like a 0 weight at 0 F and a 40 weight at 210 F. The friction modifiers work in different ways at the temperatures in between and every oil is thinner at hot temperatures than it is when cold. A 0w-40 is thinner than a 5w-30 at 0 degrees F. At what temperature it becomes thicker varies from oil to oil, but at 0 any 0w-xx is thinner than any 5w-xx oil. Of course all this varies from brand to brand and oil to oil.

 

No lol again that is not true. 0 does not indicate the actual viscosity of the oil. None of the number represent the actual viscosity of oil. I sound like a broken record lol.

[0Tyrael0]

0Tyrael0. A 0w40 from some brands will be similar to a 10w30 at 40C and thicker than a 30 at 100C. Sometimes the 0w40 will be closer to a 15w30 at 40C and thicker at a high temp. You are right however that at all temps a 0w40 will be thicker than a 0w30. It is not that cut and dry. It is a range, but ranges overlap, especially when comparing dino and synthetic oils. Many 0w40s will have a lower pour point than a 5w30, even if the 5w30 is synthetic.

 

Oh and subaru recommends a 5w40 for hot weather or hard driving.

 

I dont know what subaru recommend for hard driving because I am actually fairly new to subarus but I will take your word for it. Again everything else you said I agree with 99%. I did fail to mention that some of the ranges overlap. I did mention that there are differences in dino and synthetic oils of the same weight. Also actual weights will vary between brands however not by that much. Also 0w40 will always be thicker than any oil that ends in 30. Unless its a strait 30 of course.

[0Tyrael0]

Ill say it one more time. 0w40 is thicker in every single way than 0w30, 5w30, and 10w30. It does make sense. Read the site I posted and you will all come around. Or you can take the quick rout and just believe me. I have read that site 5 times over. I have asked experts in person about the matter and they agree.

[seabass07]

It is wrong though...Look at some specs of different oils. There are 0w40s that are thinner below 40C than a 10w30 with a lower pour temperature. The thing is that 30 and 40 are just a range of viscosities. You can compare several 0w40 oils from different companies and you will see that they are all going to a bit different. It is just not as simple as you are making it. Notice that you don't see any 35 weight oils. It is not because they don't exist, it is because everything from over 30 to 40 will be classified as a 40. You are simply oversimplifying it.

 

Look up different brands and different weights on the manufacturers websites and you will see the difference in viscosities at 40C and 100C and the pour point. That can give you an idea of the differences. If a 0w40 can pour at a lower temperature than a 10w30, then the viscosity is lower at low temperatures. That simple.

[seabass07]

The 0w does not have anything to do with a viscosity at a certain temperature. The w does not mean winter. It is only there to show that it comes from different testing methods. It is a comparison of the maximum cold temperature cranking vs the viscosity at 100C. IOW a larger temperature range below operating temperature before it becomes too thick to crank. BTW this comes directly from SAE.

[Boostin1657615274]

Ill say it one more time. 0w40 is thicker in every single way than 0w30, 5w30, and 10w30. It does make sense. Read the site I posted and you will all come around. Or you can take the quick rout and just believe me. I have read that site 5 times over. I have asked experts in person about the matter and they agree.

 

Go to the library and open a fluid dynamics book. You will find in there a graph similar to this one: http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/Graph-motors.html . Basically, the higher the viscosity number is, the less it flows; it gets more of a flow rate of molasses when cold compared to maple syrup when warm. 0W essentially designates that at cold temperatures, the oil has a very low viscosity, or flows very easily. 20W, on the other extreme, is very thick at low temperatures and moves very slowly. You can't just read around on the internet and make assumptions that defy the laws of physics. Fluid dynamics is a required class for every mechanical engineer, and this is one of the first principles taught.

[bluesubie]

0W-40's sometimes contain more Viscosity Index Improvers in order to achieve the wide viscosity spread. Some oils, like the original green GC, can achieve a wide viscosity spread without the use of VII's (see comments from the original Terry Dyson GC test buried somewhere at bitog). VII's are the first thing to break down in oil and this may be the reason why they are not ideal in some applications, not because the oil is thin in low temps.

 

The "W" stands for winter. "For multi-grade viscosity oils, the cold temperature viscosity is labled with a "W," which stands for winter." http://www.pennzoil.com/#/about-motor-oil/ .

As mentioned, the "0" does not correlate to the actual thickness (kinematic viscosity) of the oil. It refers to the results of the Cold Cranking Simulator test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold-Cranking_Simulator . This is old, but good info on multi-grades and the CCS: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/171/oil-can

 

M1 0W-40 is 75 centistokes at 40C. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

M1 10W-30 is 65.3 cst's at 40C. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_10W-30.aspx

The 10W-30 is thinner than the 0W-40 at 40C. If you want to see the actual viscosity at lower temps, you'll need to find a viscosity calculator on-line that will let you plug in the 40 and 100C numbers.

 

Although Castrol no longer lists their 40C numbers, GC is thicker than many 5 and 10W-30's at freezing temps.

 

-Dennis

[seabass07]

Many think that the “W” in 10W-30 means “winter”.

From SAE J300 p.2:

"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C. Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method. Multi-grade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria....

The W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another.

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77

 

Hmm looks like two sources disagree on what the W means...of course it really makes no difference considering we agree on what the number means.

[apexi]

I try not to argue about motor oil outside of bitog, too many people who have no idea what theyre talking about but think they know everything. If a 0w-40 is always thicker than a 10w-30, why do many automakers have a chart like the one below suggesting a 0w oil for freezing temperatures? Answer: because a 0w is thinner than a 5w or 10w at freezing temperatures.

[0Tyrael0]

Wow or instead of all that you could look at the site I posted and look at the table where he actually tested all the viscosity himself. Or you could read what bluesubie just posted. His site just backed me up and your still arguing with me. Alright Im going to say it one more time just read the site. Read the chart. He did all the work for us. Thats why I posted it.

[0Tyrael0]

0W-40's sometimes contain more Viscosity Index Improvers in order to achieve the wide viscosity spread. Some oils, like the original green GC, can achieve a wide viscosity spread without the use of VII's (see comments from the original Terry Dyson GC test buried somewhere at bitog). VII's are the first thing to break down in oil and this may be the reason why they are not ideal in some applications, not because the oil is thin in low temps.

 

The "W" stands for winter. "For multi-grade viscosity oils, the cold temperature viscosity is labled with a "W," which stands for winter." http://www.pennzoil.com/#/about-motor-oil/ .

As mentioned, the "0" does not correlate to the actual thickness (kinematic viscosity) of the oil. It refers to the results of the Cold Cranking Simulator test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold-Cranking_Simulator . This is old, but good info on multi-grades and the CCS: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/171/oil-can

 

M1 0W-40 is 75 centistokes at 40C. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

M1 10W-30 is 65.3 cst's at 40C. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_10W-30.aspx

The 10W-30 is thinner than the 0W-40 at 40C. If you want to see the actual viscosity at lower temps, you'll need to find a viscosity calculator on-line that will let you plug in the 40 and 100C numbers.

 

Although Castrol no longer lists their 40C numbers, GC is thicker than many 5 and 10W-30's at freezing temps.

 

-Dennis

 

Wow cant thank you enough for posting that.

[0Tyrael0]

Alright here we go.

[0Tyrael0]

Now here is what I am saying. Is it possible to make a 0w40 to be thinner at freezing temperature than a 10w30 or 5w30? It probably is. But it simply is not available right now. It doesnt follow common sense I know. All the 0w40s available are thicker than anything ending in 30. But ill tell you this is not even the point of my posts. Okay if there is some brand out there that proves me wrong fine. Post it and I will admit my defeat on this subject. But not on the fact that thinner oil is better and you should use it. I have tested different weights myself and decided on 0w30 mobil 1.

[0Tyrael0]

Many think that the “W” in 10W-30 means “winter”.

From SAE J300 p.2:

"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C. Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method. Multi-grade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria....

The W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another.

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77

 

Hmm looks like two sources disagree on what the W means...of course it really makes no difference considering we agree on what the number means.

 

Wow after arguing with me this link backs me up as well. Alright thanks for posting that too.

[seabass07]

OK. explain what this actual means when there are only 2 0w40 oils there and only one of them has info at 40C, and the other shows that it has a lower pour temp than the 10w30 of the same brand.

 

Do you know what temp 40C actually is? it is not cold...it is my ambient temps here in Miami on a shitty summer day. Have you looked at the pour temps? If you look at mobil 1, number 4 of the 7 images you posted...a perfect example, you'll see that the 0w40 is thicker at 40C than the 5w30, but it has a lower crank temp and a much lower pour temp then the 5w30. Are you paying attention? That right there completely disproves your statement that a 0w40 is thicker at every temp than a 5w40.

[0Tyrael0]

Your right I was not looking at the pour points. I was looking at the 40C and not at the pour points. I am aware of what 40c actually means. I was just (as you pointed out) not reading it correctly. I think I have made this mistake in the past... I did not pay close enough attention to what you were saying about the pour points. It is obvious that the pour point would have to be lower in a 0w oil. I apologize for my mistake. I guess a safer thing to say would be 0w40 is thicker above (x) temp.

[0Tyrael0]

Well going back to my original point before I got side tracked being stupid: The basic point of what I was originally trying to say is Thinner oil is best. Anything that doesn't start with a 0w is useless to the daily driver.

[Boostin1657615274]

I love oil wars.

[bluesubie]

I try not to argue about motor oil outside of bitog, too many people who have no idea what theyre talking about but think they know everything. If a 0w-40 is always thicker than a 10w-30, why do many automakers have a chart like the one below suggesting a 0w oil for freezing temperatures? Answer: because a 0w is thinner than a 5w or 10w at freezing temperatures.

 

The first number measures how well the oil flows in cold weather, but is not a measurement of the actual viscosity. This is one of several reasons why many oil industry people want to do away with the current grading system.

 

If you search around for viscosity comparison charts on bitog, you'll see that you can't always go by the grade listed on the bottle to determine the viscosity of the oil. I know there is one in the Euro forum showing GC thicker at 0F than several 5 and 10W-30's. I'll look around later when I have time. Like I mentioned above, you can look around for a viscosity calculator on-line and create you own viscosity comparison chart. You enter the viscosity at 40C and 100C and it will tell you the actual viscosity at a wide range of temps from below freezing to operating temps. It's also helpful to look at CCS viscosity, but all manufacturers don't provide that info.

 

-Dennis

[apexi]

I understand that outside of 100C and 40C, the viscosity of an oil will greatly vary and a synthetic 10w-30 may flow better than a conventional 5w-30 at say 25f for example. I've read your post a few times, and I have to disagree, the first number is a measure of the actual viscosity. In order to meet the 5w or 10w designation, the oil must fall within a certain viscosity range as seen in the chart below. I just woke up though so I may not fully understand what you're saying.

 

http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/marine/files/Engineering_Data.pdf

[seabass07]

Many think that the “W” in 10W-30 means “winter”.

From SAE J300 p.2:

"Two series of viscosity grades are defined in Table (1): (a) those containing the letter W and (b) those without. Single viscosity grade oils with the letter W are defined by maximum low temperature cranking and pumping viscosities and a minimum kinematic viscosity at 100C. Single grade oils without the letter W are based on a set of minimum and maximum kinematic viscosities at 100C and a minimum high shear rate viscosity at 150C. The shear rate will depend on the test method. Multi-grade grade oils are defined by both of these criteria....

The W is just a designation of one type of testing vs another.

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77

 

 

 

This is a direct quote from the SAE oil standards. Considering that they are the ones who define how to do the tests and how to quantify the results and define the SAE XXwXX scale, I think it is pretty reliable.

[bluesubie]

apexi - Basically, I'm saying that the number of the bottle does not give an indication of actual kinematic viscosity (the actual thickness/thinness) of any oil at any temperature. The xW- number is a measurement of how well the oil flows, or how it performed on the Cold Cranking Simulator test. I can't access bitog from work but will look for the viscosity chart myself that someone ran showing GC 0W-30 thicker than some 5W-30's at 30F.

 

seabass - I agree. If that is a quote from the SAE paper (although I don't see the closed quotes), then that's correct on the W designation. You can order the SAE J300 paper yourself for about $60 to find out.

 

edit: Found the chart! Click here to see GC vs. various oils from -40 to 10.

 

 Temp Castrol Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Motul Penn
F Syntec 300V Plat
0w-30 0w-40 0w-30 5w-30 10w-30 5w-20 5w-40 5w-30
Vi 167 187 169 169 147 163 176 169
100C 12.2 14.3 11 11.3 10 8.8 13.8 10.3
40C 72 80 63.1 64.8 62 48.3 80.8 57.5

cSt 
-40 28357.7 19743.0 22092.0 23154.0 39117.0 17893.0 26299 19703
-30 14234.7 10603.0 11202.0 11734.0 18230.0 8925.0 13610 10004
-20 7591.9 5998.0 6032.0 6314.0 9119.0 4745.0 7447 5396
-10 4278.2 3558.0 3430.0 3588.0 4863.0 2672.0 4920 3074
0 2527.6 2199.0 2044.0 2136.0 2739.0 1581.0 2581.0 1836
10 1560.7 1412.0 1273.0 1329.0 1623.0 979.0 1621.1 1145

-Dennis