Koni Shock/Strut & Epic Engineering Spring Install

[bucko3the7man]

Could very well be worn out rear tophats. I replaced mine

[iNVAR]

Yeah, my rear strut mounts are new oem already. Only thing I didn't replace in the rear were the upper spring perches. If they're made of rubber, I could see them hardening with age and becoming brittle... but I wouldn't think that hardened rubber would squeak, right? Just crack...? Hmm.

[SBT]

Why would it squeak? If its worn out? Would the upper coil break through the isolator and scratch metal?

 

If that were the case, you'd likely notice settling as well or lopsidedness.

[JermTheElf]

So is there a way I can test? Or is it just buy new parts and see if my squeak is gone?

[GTEASER]

Is there a site where we can buy the rear spring perches?

 

Do the pretty Bilstein aluminum perches fit over the Koni shocks? They are thicker than the Koni stamped metal ones and may eliminate the need for saggy butt spacers. They look to be about 1/4" thick.

[ibr_adam09]

FYI , eBay struts do not work with konis . The diameter is to large and thus the insert just falls in. Ironically, the shim included with the inserts is too big to fit inside.

[GTEASER]

I would think it would fit with the OEM replacement KYB struts. What brand were those that you bought?

[AZP Installs]

I would think it would fit with the OEM replacement KYB struts. What brand were those that you bought?

 

We've installed Konis in KYB replacements.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

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[iNVAR]

Squeaking getting worse, really pissing me off, going to bring it to my guy next Friday and get to the bottom of this. I bought this wrap, hope it's good enough:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GDFDNA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1]Morris Products 22113 Spiral Wrap, Uv Black, 0.30 - 2.36" Bundle Range, 33ft Length: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific[/ame]

 

Also, ride is rougher than I had expected. Handling is superb, I'm very happy with that. But ride is pretty harsh in NYC. Small bumps (small dips/rises) the car handles like a champ. Small imperfections in the road are barely noticeable. But there seems to be a type of sharp edge bump that is everywhere in NYC that impacts hard. Really hard.

 

I've tried tweaking the adjustment knob in front and rear in both directions and it makes little to no difference in comfort, which appears to confirm this article:

http://v70r.com/forums/topic/16154-damper-compression-rebound-tutorial/

 

Which says that ride comfort is largely a function of compression (bump) and spring stiffness. Being that the knob only adjusts rebound, it's not surprising that it does little to nothing with respect to ride comfort.

[m sprank]

Rebound effects compression adjustment more than compression adjustment some times. If you slow rebound, you slow compression too. It will take some fine tuning to get any adjustable suspension to handle NYC. Too many types of "road" (asphalt, brick, cobblestone, etc), and they are all a minefield. It took me a while to get my Tokicos dialed in driving in the city.

[SBT]

Have you tried adjusting tire pressure? If the tires are too inflated, they add to the bump harshness. Try it with slightly less (2psi F/R) and see if that helps at all.

[Underdog]

Rebound effects compression adjustment more than compression adjustment some times. If you slow rebound, you slow compression too. It will take some fine tuning to get any adjustable suspension to handle NYC. Too many types of "road" (asphalt, brick, cobblestone, etc), and they are all a minefield. It took me a while to get my Tokicos dialed in driving in the city.

 

True for Tokicos which have tethered adjustment of compression and rebound. Konis are rebound adjustable only.

[iNVAR]

Pretty sure he knows that. He just means I have to keep tweaking the knob slowly and tediously. I'll keep working at it, but I doubt it'll matter much. I may just have a low tolerance for a bumpy ride.

 

 

Have you tried adjusting tire pressure? If the tires are too inflated, they add to the bump harshness. Try it with slightly less (2psi F/R) and see if that helps at all.

 

Not a good idea. My pressure is usually at around 35/33 as per factory spec. Sometimes I go as high as 37/35. Anything lower risks rim damage on larger "sharp" potholes. I'm currently at 215/45 on 17x7.5. My next set of tires will likely be 225/45 instead to add a tiny bit more meat. Maybe that will help.

[Underdog]

Pretty sure he knows that. He just means I have to keep tweaking the knob slowly and tediously. I'll keep working at it, but I doubt it'll matter much. I may just have a low tolerance for a bumpy ride.

 

 

I'm sure he does. However the subtlety of the issue is something that is lost on many others, which is why I wanted to clarify.

[ibr_adam09]

I would think it would fit with the OEM replacement KYB struts. What brand were those that you bought?

 

The cheapest strut I could find on ebay since I was going to cut it.

Looks identical in every aspect except the diameter being a bit bigger.

I finally got it to work though last night. Had to shave away the inside cylinder where the shim will rest on. Hammerd the shim inside, then hammered the insert. Yea this guy isn't budging anywhere !

 

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p330/ibr_adam09/photo1-28.jpg

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p330/ibr_adam09/photo2-28.jpg

[famaya26]

Just buy donor struts and be done with it. Don't buy cheap eBay stuff.

[ibr_adam09]

I would have, but none were available.

 

 

What sucks about all this was that long ago I still had my original struts but threw them out. It's all under the bridge now . At least we know.

[m sprank]

True for Tokicos which have tethered adjustment of compression and rebound. Konis are rebound adjustable only.

 

Yes, sir. I realize that.

 

But even on set ups with separate rebound and compression adjustment, adjusting rebound effects compression. When I was a privateer (and could not afford to rebuild my coils every race) I would have to decrease rebound (slow it down) in order to increase compression once my compression adjustment was maxxed out. Not always with the desired effect (as slowing rebound increases "packing up"), but when bottoming out on every landing and having the pegs hit the dirt, it helped. Small trick I learned from some of the shock manufacturers that would actually talk with a privateer.

 

You can try it for yourself if you have a set of struts/shocks with separate adjustment. Set compression to minimum and rebound to maximum (fast rebound). Compress and measure resistance. Then set rebound to minimum (slowest). Compress and measure resistance. Resistance to compression will increase.

 

NYC roads are some of if not the worst I have ever encountered. Running lowered in NYC takes its toll.

[iNVAR]

This also makes me wonder if maybe I should've cut the bump stops. I read this entire thread basically and that's why I didn't cut them... I think you were the one talking about how small bump stops actually compress already and cutting is a bad idea....

[Underdog]

It should be noted that making a production-worthy, reliable and repeatable adjustable shock mechanism is tricky business, which is why budget adjustable shocks are a far worse option than fixed damping shocks in the same price bracket (generally speaking). Crosstalk happens, and sometimes you affect the other parameter more drastically than the one you intended.

 

And Mike, as I said to iNVAR... I wasn't correcting you, just highlighting it for others reading this thread.

 

One of my back burner projects is to build a shock dyno... some day.

[m sprank]

Rick, I completely understand and agree. I do like the Konis better than the Bilsteins (fixed dampening in about the same price range). But, like anything their is a give and take.

 

Bump stops dont need to be trimmed unless you are slamming the car for a specific look. Otherwise, yes... they compress far more than you would think and are a integral part of the suspension.

 

"Crosstalk" happened much less once I was sponsored and was able to work with companies like Custom Axxis (Penske Racing), PEP and Ohlins. But by then, I was no longer serviceing my own shocks (a chore I was never fond of).

[iNVAR]

It should be noted that making a production-worthy, reliable and repeatable adjustable shock mechanism is tricky business, which is why budget adjustable shocks are a far worse option than fixed damping shocks in the same price bracket (generally speaking). Crosstalk happens, and sometimes you affect the other parameter more drastically than the one you intended.

Someone from this thread: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/koni-settings-164168.html

 

Referenced this site:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

 

And under their site, I found this:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

Shock Buyer's Guide

 

Remember this list:

 

Bilstein

Penske

Koni

Ohlins

Sachs

Dynamic Suspension

 

Not on this list? Almost certainly crap

The guy seems to like Konis for the most part.

 

Koni

 

I have a love-hate relationship with Koni. Love, because Koni makes more production-car fitments than anybody, the performance of their shocks is reasonable, and they have a knob. Hate, because Koni won't let anybody service their shocks except Koni and a couple of privileged few rebuilders, and they wouldn't let me become one of those special few. I totally understood their reasoning (and for reasons outside my control, they turned out to be right) but it used to make me mad as hell to have to turn customers away, because they wanted me to rebuild their Konis for them, but Koni wouldn't let me.

 

Grrr.

 

That being said, the ubiquitous Koni Yellow is actually a decent shock for the price. The off-the-shelf valving is usually pretty good, the knob is rebound-only with very little crosstalk onto compression, and while the knob is SERIOUSLY nonlinear, it can be worked with: a typical Yellow had 2 1/2 turns of adjustment. The last 1/2 turn to full hard is useless (tiny changes make huge force changes) and the last half to full turn to full soft does nothing, but that turn to turn and a half in the middle of the range usually isn't bad.

 

Koni's quality control on the Yellows is such that the odds on any two shocks with the same part number matching forces are very small - there's quite a bit of shock-to-shock variation. But bought as a group buy and then dyno matched, it is possible to put together matched sets. Be aware that I've seen Koni Yellows with the same part number that matched perfectly when one was 1/2 turn off full hard, and the other was at full soft - I consider the adjuster knob a way to match shocks on the dyno, NOT a tuning tool.

 

Here is an example of a pair of Koni Yellows. Same part number, dynoed on the same day:

 

So basically, the knobs do what they're supposed to do, sort of... Doh. But the dampers should be matched, which I don't think anyone here actually did. So I guess it's not that great?

Edited May 23, 2013 by iNVAR

[Underdog]

Yup - I have no problem with Konis. Don't forget... I wrote this walkthrough and have always advocated for their value, partially based on the advice I read on farnorthracing.com many years ago, and partially from having tried many suspension combos on my Legacy.

 

I never found them quite as good as my RCE Tarmacs, or eventually my Bilstein BSS coilovers (which are fixed damping BTW, and better handling than the Tarmacs), but when factoring in purchase price the Konis are a great bargain.

 

If I had a crap load of time and a safe place to get them dialed in, I probably would go that route with my new addition ('09 OBXT). However, since my time is scarce, and I don't plan on wringing out the OBXT to the limit, I will probably go with a new set of KYBs, Legacy wagon springs and some good sways.

[m sprank]

Konis are no match for a good set of coils. No strut made for the LGT is going to "compete" with a set of good coils. "Good" in my book being KWV2/RCE Tarmacs, Bilstein BSS, AST and possibly Tein Flex.

[Underdog]

True, I wasn't making a fair comparison.

 

I never tried Konis with stock springs, which is something I was interested in a while back. Maybe I will give it a shot on the Outback with the Legacy wagon springs.