SeeeeeYa Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 just got my F&R installed. Car feels different. Comming around an exit ramp took it kinda fast to see how it reacted and got a lot of overstear. The good thing though it felt like a good controlled 4 wheel drift as the tires let loose and not omg im going to die. Wait until you get that feeling on a back road, in the middle of an unforseen, off camber curve, with no guardrail between you and treetops. Then you'll know why a little understeer in built into all cars.... it's there to give you warning when your ass is about to pass you. Under most controlled circumstances the neutral feeling a bigger RSB brings is what we want. Autox course? Super. But there will come a time when you KNOW you are at the edge, but there won't be a whisper of complaint from the steering. Hopefully it will be somewhere safe, not that dark curve where the runoff is two feet of dirt before the void. THAT feeliing is not super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlsb Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Wait until you get that feeling on a back road, in the middle of an unforseen, off camber curve, with no guardrail between you and treetops. Then you'll know why a little understeer in built into all cars.... it's there to give you warning when your ass is about to pass you. Under most controlled circumstances the neutral feeling a bigger RSB brings is what we want. Autox course? Super. But there will come a time when you KNOW you are at the edge, but there won't be a whisper of complaint from the steering. Hopefully it will be somewhere safe, not that dark curve where the runoff is two feet of dirt before the void. THAT feeliing is not super. All things being equal, going too fast, "middle of off camber curve", "no guardrail", I would prefer oversteer where I at least have a few options, whereas with understeer, I'll just go off the cliff, holding a useless steering wheel:lol::lol: "Belief does not make truth. Evidence makes truth. And belief does not make evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 All things being equal, going too fast, "middle of off camber curve", "no guardrail", I would prefer oversteer where I at least have a few options, whereas with understeer, I'll just go off the cliff, holding a useless steering wheel:lol::lol: I didn't say it didn't work well. I said the 'feeling' when the steering gives no feedback, when you KNOW you're way too close to rotating, gives adrenaline its flavor. To be clear, the feeling I am referencing goes by the specific name of FEAR. Manage it or it will manage you. These kinds of setups are not for the average person. One needs to become intimately familiar with the "new" car once the stock handling is changed. Familiar as in driven a lot at an angry pace under controlled circumstances, like on a race track or autox course. You have to know what the car will do when you've gone "too far," and how close too far is and what it feels like. Playing in a parking lot in the snow doesn't qualify. Those who ride bikes aggressively learn to overcome such "feelings," or instinctual reactions, and manage their riding with an intellectual strength. It isn't under or over steer that's the problem, because a bike doesn't have any.... it is all lean angle. Give in to "feelings" and one day that unexpected curve will freeze a rider, and instead of leaning more drive themselves straight off that cliff. SIMILARLY.... at the point you find humorous here, had I NOT had the experience, mental conditioning, and knowledge about lift-throttle oversteer, I might have reacted to the instinctive "feeling" I mention and lifted. If I had, that day, that time, would likely have been the last for my wife and me. It is cool to have the goodies that make a car fast or handle like a race car. But it can be deadly in ignorant inexperienced hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlsb Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I didn't say it didn't work well. I said the 'feeling' when the steering gives no feedback, when you KNOW you're way too close to rotating, gives adrenaline its flavor. To be clear, the feeling I am referencing goes by the specific name of FEAR. Manage it or it will manage you. These kinds of setups are not for the average person. One needs to become intimately familiar with the "new" car once the stock handling is changed. Familiar as in driven a lot at an angry pace under controlled circumstances, like on a race track or autox course. You have to know what the car will do when you've gone "too far," and how close too far is and what it feels like. Playing in a parking lot in the snow doesn't qualify. Those who ride bikes aggressively learn to overcome such "feelings," or instinctual reactions, and manage their riding with an intellectual strength. It isn't under or over steer that's the problem, because a bike doesn't have any.... it is all lean angle. Give in to "feelings" and one day that unexpected curve will freeze a rider, and instead of leaning more drive themselves straight off that cliff. SIMILARLY.... at the point you find humorous here, had I NOT had the experience, mental conditioning, and knowledge about lift-throttle oversteer, I might have reacted to the instinctive "feeling" I mention and lifted. If I had, that day, that time, would likely have been the last for my wife and me.. AHHH, to be young and reckless again. I guess you missed my tongue and cheek point. You forgot the salient point about going down a unfamiliar (or even a familiar back road, in the night (or daylight) at speed. Another thing that "saved" you was LUCK!. Luck that the turn was not sharper, more off camber, sandy, or had a farmer towing a manure spreader in the middle of it. And when your luck runs out (if it does) no amount of superior driving skills or experience will save you. As for mental conditioning, experience,instincts etc, you remind me of the following friends: Gil M. great club racer, autoxer, rallye driver. Killed in his 911 Sc avoiding a mattress on his favorite fast back road (beheaded in culvert). Dan C. another great SCCA driver, NE regional champion twice. Killed on on-ramp. Drove into nut backing UP the on ramp. Burned to death in his 240Z. John B. Another good SCCA driver, nationally rated, top notch engineer. Lost left arm when he rolled his Volvo on sanded (just tarred) road on way home from work. Lori C. AMA 250CC dirt track racer. Killed instantly going up mountain road when she met oncoming car that was two feet into her lane. All the above were great drivers, knew their equipment and certainly knew how to control fear. So, the next time you go blasting down a back road, on ramp, ETC; remember that you are not relying just on your skills and experience , you are also relying on luck. "Belief does not make truth. Evidence makes truth. And belief does not make evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 AHHH, to be young and reckless again. I guess you missed my tongue and cheek point. You forgot the salient point about going down a unfamiliar (or even a familiar back road, in the night (or daylight) at speed. Another thing that "saved" you was LUCK!. Luck that the turn was not sharper, more off camber, sandy, or had a farmer towing a manure spreader in the middle of it. And when your luck runs out (if it does) no amount of superior driving skills or experience will save you. As for mental conditioning, experience,instincts etc, you remind me of the following friends: Gil M. great club racer, autoxer, rallye driver. Killed in his 911 Sc avoiding a mattress on his favorite fast back road (beheaded in culvert). Dan C. another great SCCA driver, NE regional champion twice. Killed on on-ramp. Drove into nut backing UP the on ramp. Burned to death in his 240Z. John B. Another good SCCA driver, nationally rated, top notch engineer. Lost left arm when he rolled his Volvo on sanded (just tarred) road on way home from work. Lori C. AMA 250CC dirt track racer. Killed instantly going up mountain road when she met oncoming car that was two feet into her lane. All the above were great drivers, knew their equipment and certainly knew how to control fear. So, the next time you go blasting down a back road, on ramp, ETC; remember that you are not relying just on your skills and experience , you are also relying on luck. Absolutely! Not a breath of argument here. After a fairly long lifetime, so far, pushing envelopes and wincing every time luck's hot breath touched my neck, I understand everything you say and what experience it takes to verbalize it. Every time I dressed to ride I confirmed my intentions were to return. Too many times, however, over the 30+ years I've ridden my return was the gift of pure luck. Skill and experience often helped, but hardly always. Same with cars.... from young and stupid to older and stupid. So many gifts I prefer to not reflect too much beyond the learning. But I've always felt that submitting to the evidence would mean backing up, accepting a lower standard, becoming... beaten by life just so I could live longer. Unacceptable. Until recently. I'm old enough now, confident in my skills enough now, yet with enough experiential background to put that, as you pointed out, side by side with reasoning that includes Luck as the player it is. How I ever survived my life is beyond me. Someone once said that success was when preparation met opportunity. I believe in being prepared... mentally, physically, and emotionally in addition to my equipment. I'm aware I won't be here forever, and that luck more than anything defines my life. But, I'm only going this way once and I want all of it living, not merely existing. I'm not backing up nor getting in line. Not who I am as long as I'm here and have a choice. Soon enough..... The thread is about Cobb's swaybars. I hope eveyone knows exactly what they are doing and what impact on their and other's lives they may potentially make. I posted only to share my own experience regarding swaybars in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpinefun Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 "The thread is about Cobb's swaybars. I hope eveyone knows exactly what they are doing and what impact on their and other's lives they may potentially make. I posted only to share my own experience regarding swaybars in general." Thank you. You did it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr4Legacy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The first 6 pages of this thread were very insightful. Thanks Joe for your input and others for adding your tips and lessons learned. I have been contemplating my first mod, and after a year and half of driving the car, and now that I'm back in WV where I have lots of twisty windy roads... I've decided I want my car to handle better before I do the power mods. (Plus suspension seems to be a LOT more bang for buck... and right now my buck is low ) I am debating Cusco, Cobb, Whiteline, and Rallitek swaybars...... I got a lot of info about cobb here. Been trying to search for comparisons... but not much luck. :subscribed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjk77 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 6 pages? i only have 3. i can't even remember what the car was like before installing the sways. and that was only 3 months ago. oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 vr4legacy - I'll say this as I've recently had ALOT more experience driving the LGT on ice and packed snow with stock re92 tires with 17000 miles on them: When driven carefully, as you should do with all-seasons on ice/snow, the car responds in a very stock fashion. As SOON as you get aggressive, the rear-end wags it's tail. I had this car going sideways quicker and more often than I realized I could. Granted, I've never driven alot of tail happy RWD cars, and I've only owned one AWD car before that was understeer prone (2005 saab 9-2x aero). I think Sways are the quickest/cheapest route to almost eliminate body roll, get much better steering input/control, and generally enjoy the car more. But if you want to do it right from the start, go with a matched pair of struts/dampers for about 3-4x the cost. I'll eventually go that route, but only after I think my stock struts are getting worn out. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORULZleggy Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 wow this was a great read on the Sways and i will be getting the stage2 sways if possible or just the sways if there is no stage two. I also wanted to know why people are running all season's in the winter on the subies? With my STI I would run Hankook Winter iPikes on the car and I was upset cause I would try to get the car crazy and it only happen one time. those massive deep snow tires gripped very well. I will be buying hankook iPikes again when the winter hits hard and i will have winter wheels. I just think it is a must that you have two different tires for winter and summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vr4Legacy Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 thanks for the input Joe... i've had a lot of experience with all types of vehicles in this weather... I'm from Northern WV so I see the same weather you get I'm used to rear end slide out as I've had a few RWD cars. I drive aggressive sometimes in snow, but I am always expecting the rear to kick out, making me ready for it. But I will definately keep in mind that these bars will change the characteristics. I won't be getting them til spring, as I am transitioning between jobs and alot of other stuff is going on now, but I am trying to get everything lined up so I know what to buy and what to do. I'm debating what else to get with them..... end links, bushings, etc? From reading I am definately getting the rear supports..... any insight as to what else I should upgrade while I'm under there? I'll be doing this myself, so I figure while I have it up and apart it's worth paying the couple hundred now to upgrade the small parts, instead of waiting. Thanks!!! NORU.... the reason alot of us run all seasons is financial. It's not cheap to buy a separate set of rims AND tires. then to have them paired to your TPMS twice a year. Or if you use the same rims you would have to have the tires installed twice a year I for one don't want to ignore a safety feature on my car such as TPMS.... I'd like to know my tires are going low..... As Joe mentioned if you drive safe and careful (as you should) in the bad weather, all seasons do just fine. My RE92's served me well, my biggest complaint was stopping distance for them.... Sorry if I went OT for some of this post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 The re92s won't help if you need to slam on your brakes or brake and emergency manuever at the same time, but otherwise you can get by with them. Vr4 - The Cobb sways (and maybe others) come with rear reinforcement brackets/plates when you buy the sways as a set. Alot of people have run this set with stock endlinks. Some people have had failures. If you plan on running all season rubber, maybe you won't be putting the level of stress on the end links that would be required to break them? I don't know. Upgraded endlinks are somewhat pricey for their benefit; the main benefit is that you know they won't break I'm not an expert on greases, but Cobb supplies some super tacky grease to grease the bushings with during your install. I'd also recommend getting a grease gun and squirting some heavy duty chassis grease through the zerk fittings on the cobb sway bar straps to kind of "surround" the whole bushing assembly. Make sure you have plenty of access to sway bar endlinks and bushing straps for tightening properly. If I had to do it again, I'd take the rear wheels off to give me a better angle. Also, might be a good idea to use loctite on a few areas, and anti-seize on your rear exhaust bolts when you take them out....will make future modifications easier. Those are my thoughts off the top of the head. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommypenguin Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Joe, you suck, this thread made me spend 600$. I was always planning on getting sways at some point this year, I sold my version 2 AP a couple weeks ago and was going to save that money but instead rolled it into cobb sways and kartboy front and rear endlinks. I know the endlinks are a bit overkill, but I plan on keeping this car forever and figured I would just get in there and do it all right the first time and be done with it. I will let everyone know how the setup worked out for me when the parts arrive and I get them on my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 I suck, yet you haven't even installed them yet? And if you install them and return, praising me instead? Then you will rue your words my penguin friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Endlinks are always a good idea. Any lost motion in the links or brackets means your expensive swaybars aren't doing their full job. When you compare Kartboy links to stockers it's fairly ridiculous how much beefier they are. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtspecB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Small Update: Couple hundred miles on it now and no problems with not installing the reinforcement brackets and upgraded mounting plate on pass. side. Still going to have a shop do it in the future (probably spring). but no clunks, sounds, or obviously signs of weakness. Joe I'm sure it is addressed later in this thread that you put the reinforcing brackets on but I cannot stress enough the need to put them on. I could not break those 19mm subframe bolts loose even with a breaker bar (I don't have air tools) so I thought f-it I'll just put them on later. Sure enough after postponing it for 3+ months the mount broke. my vBGarage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtspecB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Just read the whole thread ... I cannot stress enough the need to put those reinforcing brackets on with the utmost of haste. It was just a speed bump, gingerly hit, that was the final straw for my stock mounts after months of procrastinating. BTW - I am running Blizzaks, but as you all have likely found the car reacts only a bit differently in the snow but the learning curve is minute. my vBGarage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommypenguin Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I suck, yet you haven't even installed them yet? And if you install them and return, praising me instead? Then you will rue your words my penguin friend. I haven’t even received them yet, I just placed my order last night KOP on the sways. I’m sure I’ll be praising you for your recommendation I just wish it were possible to read review threads on the forums when I have a little extra cash and not want to spend it on my car. At least there really isn’t much left for me to do on my car, I got upgraded brakes, suspension besides springs and struts, full stereo, wheels/tires, all performance mods, minus a built engine, I could go external wastegate but that is about all I have left to do to my car. I hadn’t really thought it about till now but it is about done, yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillyWilly Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I have a set of Cobb sways waiting for warm weather to go on. I wasnt going to do the endlinks but starting to change my mind. Where did everyone get their endlinks? Seems Kartboy is the most popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Got my Kartboy links from TiC (Turn-in Concepts)... Clint was a pleasure to deal with and even gave me the torque specs and detailed install info over the phone (how many washers, which side, etc). The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 Just read the whole thread ... I cannot stress enough the need to put those reinforcing brackets on with the utmost of haste. It was just a speed bump, gingerly hit, that was the final straw for my stock mounts after months of procrastinating. BTW - I am running Blizzaks, but as you all have likely found the car reacts only a bit differently in the snow but the learning curve is minute. I had them put on a little while back (a month?). I inspected the mounts carefully, and they appear fine visually. But that doesn't mean much. We'll see. The other guy with a broken mount was running his for over 2 years. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommypenguin Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Got my Kartboy links from TiC (Turn-in Concepts)... Clint was a pleasure to deal with and even gave me the torque specs and detailed install info over the phone (how many washers, which side, etc). I got mine at www.subydriver.com. Care sharing those torque specs and how many washers on each side? I read a couple of threads where there was a little confusion about how to install the kartboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I'm not quoting Clint @ TiC, but IIRC: Torque: 35ft-lbs (33.2ft-lbs per Vaca Pix) Fill the sleeves of the endlinks with anti-seize so things don't get all grimed-up. A washer on either side of each sleeve in the endlink. So for each endlink you would use 4 washers. I think the intent is to take up some width as well as distribute the load on the mating part. Just check the quick-pic... The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g2redgsr Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 so, somethings squeeking when i go over speedbumps now, im guessing the front endlinks that i didnt replace....sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPLGT Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 FYI, I am on stockers and so far no squeaking. Retighten all bolts. Check the grease fittings. Rehab is for quitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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