Siper2 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Yep sounds good. I think a lot of people will get a spring that they think is good because it's marketed a lot, drop the car and rave about how awesome it is. Problem being that the spring very well could not have been designed and engineered very well. So it may be okay at first, but then it settles... and then the strut has issues... and then everything else goes to hell. Yeah some coilovers (again, if superior!!) will be a better option, but then again not for every situation. For the people who road race, coilovers are usually best. They need their cars low anyway. And like you said, strut/spring has its limitations. For regular guys ... coilovers can be great but can also be overkill. Like me: I appreciate coils, but would probably rarely adjust them. So what's the point? I like a stock, or maybe very slightly performance-oriented alignment - and leave it that way for the life of the car. Unless of course I owned a second car for racing, but then we wouldn't be having this discussion. So... a well-engineered spring, with a mild drop but good handling, and a popular strut from a respected manufacturer (Bilstein), adds up to a good combination for a dude like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 That's why I said "or a little less." Most of the springs that claim 1" are actually more like 1.5" anyway. Swift claims a pretty mild drop, and I suppose it is, compared to a slammed look... but they're still pretty low for my taste. My point is that if RCE wants to find a niche and sell a lot of springs, they'd be smart to really distinguish their ride height from the other stuff on the market. There are already a lot of options in the 1-2" drop range, but AFAIK nothing in the <.5" range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RALLYT-WRX Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Yep sounds good. I think a lot of people will get a spring that they think is good because it's marketed a lot, drop the car and rave about how awesome it is. Problem being that the spring very well could not have been designed and engineered very well. So it may be okay at first, but then it settles... and then the strut has issues... and then everything else goes to hell. Yeah some coilovers (again, if superior!!) will be a better option, but then again not for every situation. For the people who road race, coilovers are usually best. They need their cars low anyway. And like you said, strut/spring has its limitations. For regular guys ... coilovers can be great but can also be overkill. Like me: I appreciate coils, but would probably rarely adjust them. So what's the point? I like a stock, or maybe very slightly performance-oriented alignment - and leave it that way for the life of the car. Unless of course I owned a second car for racing, but then we wouldn't be having this discussion. So... a well-engineered spring, with a mild drop but good handling, and a popular strut from a respected manufacturer (Bilstein), adds up to a good combination for a dude like me. +12345 Same goes for me. Except Since I already have the Bilstein's springs will be just fine for me. Also what's the verdict on the GT/ Spec-B's top hats? To soft? Do they make a stiffer version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 You mean like the Group N hats for the Impreza? I don't think Subaru has one for the Legacy, but I could easily be wrong. The STi Japan parts site has a looooooot of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 There are GroupN tophats available... they are the spec.b/jdm style. Paisan just installed a set with his Konis (intended for GT tophats) and was able to make it work with a few washers. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hmmmm the JDM spec.B uses Group N hats? Surprised... With the Impreza, no production car uses them, it's an aftermarket racing part only. All Imprezas, from USDM base model to JDM S204, all use the same tophat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 That's not what I meant. The Group N tophat physically resembles the JDM and USDM Spec.B tophats. Those tophats are distinct from the USDM GT tophats because they are designed to work with Bilsteins. The USDM GT tophats are designed to work with OEM KYB struts. AFAIK, there aren't any production Legacies with the Group N top hats. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Ok gotcha. Yeah I know about the spec.B tophats working with Bilsteins, like 5-Star includes them with their HD kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RALLYT-WRX Posted October 2, 2008 Share Posted October 2, 2008 Okay. I did not know the top hats were different on the Spec B's. I knew the struts were different. Learn something new everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I've got Tokico struts that have been sitting in a box for a couple months due to various issues with getting Pinks. I'm very interested in this project if your requirements match mine. Less interested if not. My requirements: * Progressive, so ride height doesn't suffer much. * 10-15% stiffer than stock. * Little or no lowering in the rear. * Even wheel gaps front and rear when using JDM-style struts (Bilstein, Tokico) and tophats (JDM aka Spec B style). * In light of the stock wheel gaps, the front end must come down more than the rear. I'm guessing 20mm and 5-10mm would be about right but I haven't actually measured. Measuring would be a good first step though. I suggest designing around JDM struts/hats. If you design around USDM struts/hats, those of us with Bilsteins and Tokicos will have more wheel gap in the front, and possibly a backward rake. Neither of those is acceptable. Given that these springs will only lower that car a little bit to begin with, raising the rear to compensate for the extra 3/8" that the JDM front end provides will probably just return the car to stock height. Also, USDM/Koni users can (probably, soon) get shims from Paranoid Fabrications for pretty cheap, which will raise the front to match the JDM setup. Note that these are not in production yet but I had an email exchange with the guy who runs PF and he is interested in making them, he just needs someone to send a tophat for him to get started. I'm seriously considering buying Pinks from a local seller who is thinking about selling - and then using H-Tech fronts to even the wheel gaps (the front gap still seems a little much with Pinks and JDM front end - which is no surprise considering that Subaru designed both that setup and the stock setup). I will add PF's shims, or make my own, if necessary. If you commit to producing these springs before my friend commits to selling his, you win. I was really bummed when Crucial's spring supplier dropped the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Okay. I did not know the top hats were different on the Spec B's. I knew the struts were different. Learn something new everyday. Opinions differ as to whether it's the top-hats of the struts themselves that cause the ride height difference. Someone (LBGT?) posted pics of the top hats IMO that's the source. I have JDM top hats struts in a box next to where I'm sitting right now, but my USDM hats and struts are installed my car so it's hard to compare them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 ^^ Big 2nd to everything you just said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I've got Tokico struts that have been sitting in a box for a couple months due to various issues with getting Pinks. I'm very interested in this project if your requirements match mine. Less interested if not. My requirements: * Progressive, so ride height (quality?) doesn't suffer much. * 10-15% stiffer than stock. (Swifts are 20% stiffer and a tad uncomfortable for DD) * Little or no lowering in the rear. * Even wheel gaps front and rear when using JDM-style struts (Bilstein, Tokico) and tophats (JDM aka Spec B style). * In light of the stock wheel gaps, the front end must come down more than the rear. I'm guessing 20mm and 5-10mm would be about right but I haven't actually measured. Measuring would be a good first step though. (See below) I suggest designing around JDM struts/hats. If you design around USDM struts/hats, those of us with Bilsteins and Tokicos will have more wheel gap in the front, and possibly a backward rake. Neither of those is acceptable. Given that these springs will only lower that car a little bit to begin with, raising the rear to compensate for the extra 3/8" that the JDM front end provides will probably just return the car to stock height. Also, USDM/Koni users can (probably, soon) get shims from Paranoid Fabrications for pretty cheap, which will raise the front to match the JDM setup. Note that these are not in production yet but I had an email exchange with the guy who runs PF and he is interested in making them, he just needs someone to send a tophat for him to get started. (See Below) I'm seriously considering buying Pinks from a local seller who is thinking about selling - and then using H-Tech fronts to even the wheel gaps (the front gap still seems a little much with Pinks and JDM front end - which is no surprise considering that Subaru designed both that setup and the stock setup). I will add PF's shims, or make my own, if necessary. If you commit to producing these springs before my friend commits to selling his, you win. I was really bummed when Crucial's spring supplier dropped the ball. With my Koni/Swift setup, the front is dropped almost 5/8" lower than the rear and achieves even fender gaps all around. This is reflected in the specifications for the car that show a front fender arch height of 15.0" and rear arch height of 14.4", a difference of .6". I would love to add more substance to this post but I need to go get ready for my bachelor party. I will try to check back with more, tomorrow. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Yeah, meant to write "ride quality," not "ride height." I was guessing 10mm-15mm extra gap up front, so "almost 5/8" (almost 16mm) sounds totally reasonable. Thinking out loud: Stock rates are 3.5f , 5.5r (I assume that's the "stiff" part of the progressive wind). Pinks are 4f, 6r, or +15% and +8%. Swifts are 4.25 and 6.6, or +21% and +20%. These are the published rates anyway... I can only guess how accurate they are. 10% front and rear sounds good to me. Then there's the question of whether to design them for wagons or sedans. The weight difference isn't much so it's not critical IMO. Being a wagon owner, of course I think they should be designed for wagons. Sedan owners can just get bigger subwoofers if they want to get properly dialed in. Seriously though, if they're designed around sedans, and wagon owners have noticeable sag, we can shim up the rear pretty cheaply with the shims that Paranoid Fabrications sells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Remember that swifts are stiffer and lower, so assuming that they are progressive like the rest of the options out there (are they?), the lowering simply magnifies the impact of the increased rate, because you also lose the slowing energy that is provided by an equivalent rate spring that has a longer compression distance. Forgive the way I worded this, I'm no expert in the manner -- it was just explained to me by another, and it does make a lot of sense as to why lowering springs with similar rates still feel significantly stiffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Yeah, meant to write "ride quality," not "ride height." I was guessing 10mm-15mm extra gap up front, so "almost 5/8" (almost 16mm) sounds totally reasonable. Thinking out loud: Stock rates are 3.5f , 5.5r (I assume that's the "stiff" part of the progressive wind). Pinks are 4f, 6r, or +15% and +8%. Swifts are 4.25 and 6.6, or +21% and +20%. These are the published rates anyway... I can only guess how accurate they are. 10% front and rear sounds good to me. Then there's the question of whether to design them for wagons or sedans. The weight difference isn't much so it's not critical IMO. Being a wagon owner, of course I think they should be designed for wagons. Sedan owners can just get bigger subwoofers if they want to get properly dialed in. Seriously though, if they're designed around sedans, and wagon owners have noticeable sag, we can shim up the rear pretty cheaply with the shims that Paranoid Fabrications sells. Good write-up. As for sedan vs. wagon, no saying that they can't do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think the ride height is as responsible, if not more so, then the spring rate for the ride quality of the Swift springs. I don't think we'll go that stiff anyway, but just some food for thought. - Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Andrew, Any concept on when you've have working models or begin testing these for the LGT? Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think the ride height is as responsible, if not more so, then the spring rate for the ride quality of the Swift springs. I don't think we'll go that stiff anyway, but just some food for thought. - Andrew Since I'm still a bit new to the Legacy game, most folks say the STi Pinks are a bit *less* stiff, true? So on the spring rate scale, it'd be: Swift > STi Pink > RCE RG ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Since I'm still a bit new to the Legacy game, most folks say the STi Pinks are a bit *less* stiff, true? So on the spring rate scale, it'd be: Swift > STi Pink > RCE RG ? Pinks are a little bit softer then Swifts and also have a little bit less of a drop. Mostly up front and they do have a bit of the Subaru saggy rear thing goin on. RCE spring rates still remain to be seen, so i would not put them in that scale just yet....too soon for that. - Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Bechtold Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Spring rates like LGT JDM springs would be nice. I want stock ride height but with the improved ride of the JDM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Pinks are a little bit softer then Swifts and also have a little bit less of a drop. Mostly up front and they do have a bit of the Subaru saggy rear thing goin on. RCE spring rates still remain to be seen, so i would not put them in that scale just yet....too soon for that. - Andrew Right, yeah I was just speculating, what with what the goal of the Regular Guy spring is, and all. No saggy butt!! Ugh, can't stand that whole JDM slanted car thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted October 10, 2008 Author Share Posted October 10, 2008 We have always produced parts that were functional. If I was in this to make money, we would make springs that slam cars and attract the member car gallery crowd,..but we dont. We attract the much smaller, less popular audience that actually care about performance. For that reason I still drive a Legacy and NOT a GT3 RSR with 19inch BBS LMR's and Moton 4 ways with Michelin medium compound slicks...( sorry I got carried away with my dreams).....anyway back to being serious. All one has to do to understand how much of an impact this "travel" issue has on a car is: anyone with Pinks, or Swifts, fill up your tank, add 2 regular size adults to the rear of the car and look at the amount of space you have before the rear control arm hits the large cone shapped bump stop and the reality of lowering comes crashing down on you. So you either need a FIRM linear rear spring like coilovers OR, just dont lower it much. The front is not much better. The OEM Spec B Bilsteins have more travel than the Bilstein Sports so that also becomes an issue. Every way I wrap this this up in my mind the Legacy shouldnt be lowered "much" if any to maintain its ability to handle. IT does need to be firmer and run decent sways and take advantage of all the geometry parts on the market, but lowering the car and expecting it to handle "well" isnt reality. Do these cars still handle when lowered ?..well of course..but all things being equal a non lowered car with the same spring rates will win on a normal usa track and or back road where there are things called BUMPS. With that said...we will prob be in the same non popular side if things when our springs barely if any, lower the car. A real world 10mm isnt bad. Remember when 1 adult sits in a stock Legacy it almost looks lowered. For sure 2 adults in a full tank Legacy looks lowered when moving and on the road. So imagine what a 2 adult full tank Swift or JDM Pinks lowered Legacy looks like when moving and on the road......slammed or should I say aggressive( very). Not to mention what a Legacy looks like when accelerating..lol. Ever seen an old Mercedes 450SEL leave from a traffic light.......its all but dragging the bumper...and while the LGT isnt that bad....it "dips" as the young guys say. Anyway. Anyone who is actually interested in a 10mm lowering spring email me directly. I will save it and once I have 20 people, I will produce a prototype. Rates to be determined within a week. racecompengineer@aol.com Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Myles - I'll e-mail you directly next week (monday or tuesday). I am interested in a spring with a 10mm drop and more controlled ride, but I'd like to know the viability of the spring on stock shocks and different aftermarket options. I.e. I think the greatest likelihood is for me to install them on a stock LGT (non spec.B.) and then, when the stocks start to wear out, switch to a better setup. Your write-up was great, by the way. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Anyone who is actually interested in a 10mm lowering spring email me directly. I will save it and once i have 20 people, i will produce a prototype. ygm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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