Mindspin311 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 RCE, if you were to chose a perfect set of spring rates, front and rear, for a daily driven car, what would you shoot for? It seems that a softer front rate for Subaru's/AWD vehicles helps dial out some of the inherent understeer associated with AWD set-ups. But what sort of split do you prefer? Rear rate X lb/in higher than the fronts? Did I make any sense? I hope I did.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 RCE, if you were to chose a perfect set of spring rates, front and rear, for a daily driven car, what would you shoot for? It seems that a softer front rate for Subaru's/AWD vehicles helps dial out some of the inherent understeer associated with AWD set-ups. But what sort of split do you prefer? Rear rate X lb/in higher than the fronts? Did I make any sense? I hope I did.. Yes I know what you mean. Well by the rear being a shock and the front being a strut the rates and ratios are different front to rear. So you need to have firmer to some degree in the rear. Its hard to say what the best rate would be. I have a high tolerance for spring rate, but it has to be balanced with the correct valving. Here is the other major issue. EXPECTATIONS and PREFERENCE. Some expect and or prefer a certain kind of valving and or spring rate and or both. So this is why some like this brand and others like other brands. This is why I have had to chill on defending some impressions of the Kw's because everyone has an opinion. The biggest over used statement is this: "rides better than stock...". I dont even need to go into that as you can see how that can really be super subjective. So as you go thru threads and you see this guy saying he loves his insert brand x and another thread where someone else says brand x sucks balls.....just realize that everyone has a different opinion AND back ground and exposure to different handling cars. I think most of the "guru's on this forum would be SUPER blown away if they drove a GT3 with Motons on it with 600/800 rates at a track like Sebring where its bumpier than a 10th graders face !! My assigned car in the Imsa Panoz Series had Penske's on it and at Sebring I used to lift the inside front wheel thru turn 17 at about 90mph on the gas full throttle. Point here is..that car would be SOFT on the street compared to some of the cars that are on these forums with the Japanese and Taiwanese made dampers. BUT..thats what gets a car around a course....a forgiving damper that...does this thing called.......DAMPEN. anyway....... On our Spec-B test car I liked the Tarmac 1's with 450/400 with the settings set to 5/8 as in 5 from full stiff and 8 from full stiff. WL bars and camber set to -2.0 front and -1.6 rear and R comps with a 80 tread wear rating. The best it felt for BMW like non sport feeling was 350/350 and on 8/11 from full stiff. But not slammed either. Thats my preference. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneskiian Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Thanks for the further explanations Myles. While I definitely like the look of these cars lowered. I would really LOVE to have mine ride a bit smoother and corner better. PLEASE MAKE THESE SPRINGS! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindspin311 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 at a track like Sebring where its bumpier than a 10th graders face !! My assigned car in the Imsa Panoz Series had Penske's on it and at Sebring I used to lift the inside front wheel thru turn 17 at about 90mph on the gas full throttle mmm Sebring... I LOVVEEEEE going to sebring for the 12 hour race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Miles, Thanks for another cool perspective. Based on your experience with the KW Tarmacs ("The best it felt for BMW like non sport feeling was 350/350 and on 8/11 from full stiff. But not slammed either.") Would you say that this is the closest setup you have experienced to the buttery smooth feeling of a BMW? or is there a strut/spring or coilover combo that comes closer. I know it would just be another opinion, but I would value it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Miles, Thanks for another cool perspective. Based on your experience with the KW Tarmacs ("The best it felt for BMW like non sport feeling was 350/350 and on 8/11 from full stiff. But not slammed either.") Would you say that this is the closest setup you have experienced to the buttery smooth feeling of a BMW? or is there a strut/spring or coilover combo that comes closer. I know it would just be another opinion, but I would value it. Thanks Well the cars are very different and that is the bigger issue. Yes is close...but its hard to duplicate that with different geometry. I like the Bilsteins that come on the 3.0R. They are like HD's but with MORE travel and thats nice. Our tweeks to the T1 were geared towards this in some ways as thats my experience from birth to 1996 with Porsches and Mercedes. Myles Mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Yeah I see and hear a lot of people saying that the spec.B/3.0R Bilsteins are arguably better than the HDs. But of course they're more expensive too, usually anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Yeah I see and hear a lot of people saying that the spec.B/3.0R Bilsteins are arguably better than the HDs. But of course they're more expensive too, usually anyway. different valving. The 3.0R is a sport valve and the Spec-B is a softer "USA" adaptation that I hate now after driven on the HD. No worries, I have an experiment that I am working on and will share when done. Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 All right Myles, thanks again. I hope your secret experiment works, because I am probably going to be ready to do something in January. I just got my AVO offset lower control arm bushings yesterday, and I am going to get them put on tomorrow and get a good alignment. Hopefully this will take care of the "crappy wandering from side to side like being buffeted by side winds feeling". I would like to feel the suspension without this going on so that I can really see how much of the out of control feeling is being caused by the struts themselves. I am taking a six hour drive from San Diego to Reno on Saturday, so there should be plenty of varied road surfaces along the way. These are the alignment specs I am going to try and aim for. (comments welcome): Left Front Right Front Camber -1.00 -1.00 Note: Stock bolts should allow for 1.00 degree max. Caster 6.50 6.50 Stock caster is about 6 degrees. With bushing, should get 6.5 degrees Toe 0.00 0.00 (Note: Can error on negative side but no positive toe allowed) Left Rear Right Rear Camber -1.00 -1.00 Note: Stock bolts allow for 1.00 degree max. Toe 0.00 0.00 (Note: Can error on negative side but no positive toe allowed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Oooops. Look waaaay over to the right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 I think that side wind effect is the car and its design. Legs are very cross wind unfriendly. Mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 So I have heard, but what's the explanation for it when there is zero wind?, like on my drive to Los Angeles at 7:00 am this morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Boy, this thread sure took a left turn. RCE--could you please follow up with people who have expressed interest if/when you decide to make the springs? I'm not going to follow the thread anymore. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Good idea. Sorry about the derail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Boy, this thread sure took a left turn. RCE--could you please follow up with people who have expressed interest if/when you decide to make the springs? I'm not going to follow the thread anymore. Thanks. yes if we make the springs I will be the one to follow up. mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindspin311 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Please add my name to the "interested" list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Please add my name to the "interested" list send email to racecompengineer@aol.com I am saving the interest and when we get a proto...I will post pics and contact those people who emailed me. Mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 So I have heard, but what's the explanation for it when there is zero wind?, like on my drive to Los Angeles at 7:00 am this morning? maybe the driver... JK.... I dont know..thats a good one. Mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 BT4, http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60122 There's actually a lot of factors that seem to contribute to the LGT's wobbliness. I personally believe it to be mostly a combination of the soft springs/dampers combined with VERY soft/sloppy bushings all over the car. The side wind effect of the Legacy just seems to exaggerate it even further, as well as the 0 toe alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRegvall Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Good idea. Sorry about the derail.... I've been enjoying the derailed riffing. Good insights into the mechanics of what makes the Subie handle and not handle. Probably not directly on topic but interesting. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 ^ Agreed, to be fair, all of this discussion is directly tied to the reason RaceComp feels the need for such a spring, and why some of us agree -- and hopefully will draw more support from people who feel the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceComp Engineering Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Kool. mw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT4 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I have gained some insight from this thread as well. I will post a review in the reviews section under suspension once I test the car this week with the AVO lower control arm bushing and the alignment for anyone who is interested in the subject of straight line stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siper2 Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 different valving. The 3.0R is a sport valve and the Spec-B is a softer "USA" adaptation that I hate now after driven on the HD. No worries, I have an experiment that I am working on and will share when done. Myles Awesome! I'm thinking I'll probably end up with the HDs, though that remains to be seen. Sorry for the late bump, been busy and forgot about this thread... Looks like things are on hold a bit? Well, that'll just give me all the more time to rack up a few different parts, I guess. -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goneskiian Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 D'oh! Seeing this pop back up to the top had me thinking they changed their mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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