Coolant Change

[king_j]

i called the dealer and asked about coolant. they said i can use any type of "green" coolant, and the conditioner is only for non-turbo models.

 

should i play it safe and get subaru coolant, or any type?

car has 42k miles and im planning on adding a block heater (screw in type)

[2006Specb122]

I've never heard of anything about the conditioner only being used for NON-TURBO models. You may want to get a second opinion.

 

My dealer certainly doesn't believe this.

[king_j]

called another dealer. they said the conditioner is for non turbo models only. reason is because the non turbo models had head gasket issues. turbo models did not, therefore they dont need the conditioner.

[SBT]

what a load of donkey crap. My MT said it goes in ALL Subes both to protect the aluminum and to condition the headgaskets at the head to block interface. Not dependent on whether it's a turbo or non-turbo. If it's a Subaru, it goes in it.

[TSiWRX]

king_j, this is an easy one:

 

You can either trust the word of your dealer, or you can read through the posts here, with the numerous citations to external sources - all of which are documented direct Subaru resources - and follow the recommendations here.

 

My question would be simple - can your dealer, the people there who are offering you that advice, come up with the same supporting documents that brother Subietonic and other fellow community members have come up with, to support their claims?

 

I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm just calling it like it is.

 

Your choice.

[fishbone]

Am I out of the loop on the whole coolant conditioner? I thought there was no definite answer. I personally did not use and do not plan to use it.

[TSiWRX]

^ The "definitive answer" is a bit sketchy. You're definitely right, bro, it's definitely still being debated, in terms of our little enthusiast's circle.

 

However, what can be said of king_j's specific situation is that his dealership is giving out the wrong information (as king_j is relating it to us) period.

 

*THAT* is where I take exception to what his dealer has said.

 

A dealership should be knowledgeable of Subaru's own technical requirements as well as the ins-and-outs of why Subaru makes such recommendations. For all I care, they can even insist on following Subaru's instructions and recommendations to-the-letter.

 

Alternatively, I would also find it acceptable if they debated the use of the Conditioner in a *proper* manner, and had not based it on the premise that they'd stated (as related by king_j), above.

 

I have no problem accepting either of these lines of reasoning, but the way the story was related by king_j, I wouldn't go back to that dealership for any service, at all.

 

[GTTuner]

I don't and won't use it. I changed my coolant at 30K and at 60K with OE long life stuff. When I tore my engine down a couple of weeks ago (85K now) the cooling system is clean, no corrosion around the head gaskets, etc.

[TSiWRX]

^ See, now *that* (as well as your own decision, fishbone), are lines of reasoning that I am willing to accept.

 

As long as the reasoning is logical, it's all good to me.

 

But the way king_j's dealership presented it? That's not kosher, and makes me doubt their mechanical competence, overall.

[king_j]

I called a total of 5 dealers around the Minneapolis/St. Paul M.N area. all said do not use the conditioner. a few of the service advisors mentioned this conditioner was for the 98-03 vehicles that had head gasket issues. he went on to say that the subaru oem coolant has some type of conditioner in it already, therefore the additive conditioner is not necessary.

One of the service advisors went and asked his tech, the tech replied that because it was a turbo vehicle, he himself would not use it. his reasoning is that he would not take a chance in clogging the lines with a additive conditioner.

 

im not trying to say im right and the board is wrong, im just trying to get a correct answer.

[TSiWRX]

^ Ah, I see your reasoning - and I'm not saying that *you* are wrong...just that how the initial dealership phrased their response (as well as some of the other dealers) is wrong, when reading "strictly according to Hoyle," by Subaru's own tech notes and other such publications.

 

I'm the type of guy who sees things in shades of gray, and I'm actually very open to both sides of this argument - as long as it's framed properly and logically.

 

As long as it satisfies that particular requirement, I'm OK with both sides arguing out their merits, and I can't fault anyone for choosing to go whichever way they decide to go.

 

That last tech, I'm more than willing to accept his way of thinking - he frame it properly, like our other two brothers above.

 

That, to me, is the critical difference between your interaction with the initial dealer, and with this last.

 

I'm not blaming you, nor do I think badly of you.

 

It's the dealers I'm mad at, for not having given you *proper* guidance - not "proper" in that they had to use this item, but rather, improper in that they didn't tell you Subaru's "by Hoyle" lines, and then make known to you that it was their own/personal recommendations against, and explain to you the reasons behind each, thereby allowing you to make the best choice, for yourself, or even to then ask you to favor their decision.

[teK--]

With all the arguments, well presented from both sides, I decided to just use Subaru genuine coolant. I mean for that 50% extra only once every 2 years when the coolant is changed, it is cheap insurance. That is not even the cost of a case of beer. How much is the cost of a new radiator or head gaskets, or water pump in comparison?

 

I also changed the thermostat at the same time.

[fishbone]

All I can tell you is that according to the 4th gen dealer service manual I have, it does state to use the conditioner at coolant change. It does not specifically outline anything else such as the why, the how, the when, just to add it to the system. Seeing how that thing can clump up, I figured that as long as I do not see any issues with the car as it is, why use it especially when there is no clear cut answer regarding it's use.

Outside of that, dealer service dept will needlessly add their little tidbits of insight or past experience. As far as I am concerned, if the conditioner was that crucial for the proper performance of the vehicle, it would have probably stated so in the manual or a bulletin would have come out, not to mention the multitude of problems that would have been documented resulting from many vehicles NOT having it added because of dealers such as the ones cited in Minnesota. SOA has made it pretty clear you need to use OEM coolant to keep the motor in top shape, I find it hard to believe they would forget about the conditioner. They most likely throw it in there for good measure.

[SBT]

See the first attachment here. "All Subarus" and "must add" are the operative word on the Genuine Subaru Coolant Conditioner.

[fishbone]

[TSiWRX]

^ Yup.

 

Believe me, that was my initial reply, too, bruddha fishbone, when I first started researching this.

 

That's as "by-Hoyle" as things get, as far as I'm concerned.

 

But like I said before, I can see both sides of the discussion - both bring up valid points.

 

I personally have no problem with people thinking either way, or with people either using the Conditioner or not. As long as they've predicated their practices with good logical thought, that they know Subaru's official line, and that they've made a logical argument against it, that they've framed their retort against this recommendation in a specific manner - I think both sides carry enough valid arguments that I'm willing to just go "OK!"

 

My sole problem with what king_j's initial dealership, as well as his second one, is that they first and foremost failed to give correct information, technically, and then furthermore also failed to properly frame their advice.

 

[fishbone]

What's the range shown by the temp gauge? Specifically, what temps are in the red?

Monitoring with the AP definitely shows that the gauge is buffered and is far from accurate. Just trying to get a sense what red really means without actually taking the temps up there.

[SBT]

I haven't logged with my AP, but when my oil temps hit about 40*C (104*F) on the STI gauge pack, the dash's water temp gauge is just starting to budge off bottom. When OTs hit 60*C (140*F), the WT is at about 1/4. As OTs hit the normal operating range ~80*C (176*F), then the WT gauge is pretty dead even at 1/2. Even when I hit OT in the 100-110*C (212-230*F) range, the WT is still at 1/2.

 

FWIW - I've only ever seen the temp gauge move above 1/2, and then only slightly (like 9/16) one time when I was pulling a mountain with the 1200 lb trailer on behind, the cargo box on top and fighting a head wind for about 15 miles. The turbo was staying on boost (via the boost gauge) and the oil was heating accordingly (saw 120*C (248*F) oil temps. I backed off the cruise control a bit and saw an immediate drop in boost, oil temps and the water temp went right back to 1/2.

 

I would guess that if the WT went to the red, you'd likely being seeing OTs in the 160*C (320*F) range

 

Not sure if that helps with what you're looking for, but that's my experience.

[fishbone]

When I changed the coolant, screwed it up in the process and was monitoring the temp with the AP, when it reported 230 upon shutting the car off, the needle was roughly between mid and red. The new Outbacks don't get the temp gauge, they just get warning lights. I, for one, as inaccurate as the gauge is, would rather see the needle start climbing than just being greeted with a red warning light.

[SBT]

The reason that the temp started rising on shutodwn is probably due to the convection cooling that Subaru built into the system for turbo cool down post engine shutoff.

 

Yeah - I don't like the 2010's lack of coolant gauge either - when you get a warning light, it's too late at that point. Must be a way to wire that into the center information stack - but I digress - that's really a comment for the "Do you like the 2010 Legacy" thread...

[TSiWRX]

I've looked through the '05 "Vacation Pix" as well as searched the Forums here using the keywords "temperature red," and also checked our Haynes Manual - no luck for the "red-line" reference, if you will.

 

I know from the GReddy Informeter, a direct OBD-II interface, that I'll see 203 deg. F. at-idle, which is when the second fan trips on and starts cooling things, but again, the factory engine-temperature gauge's resolution/sensitivity, at least on my '05, simply isn't there. It makes no such differentiation.

 

[ Aside: I cannot quickly recall the correlations between temperature and the various tick-marks on the factory gauge, and I also don't remember if I'd posted this information, somewhere, before.... ]

 

I'll try looking in my Owners Manual as well as in the same, of my wife's '09 FXT (which uses the same "warning-light only" scheme as '10+ Legacys), to see if there's any mention.

[TSiWRX]

Searching SubaruForester.org (the USDM MY09+ Foresters have the blue/red idiot-light feature) also failed to turn up any mention of the temperature which corresponds to the overheat (red) lamp illuminating.

 

Plenty of information that correlates the under-temp. (blue) lamp going off as well as at what temps the analog gauge's tick-marks, in previous generation models, were met/passed, but nothing on the overheat concern.

 

I'll try my manuals tomorrow.

[fishbone]

I appreciate your effort. The dealer repair manual I have makes no mention of this either. The "middle" grade, where it sits under normal driving conditions, is anywhere between 180 and 210*F in my experience.

[TSiWRX]

^ No problem, bruddah. This interests me as well - I also wonder exactly when we'd start venturing north of the equator, and into the red.

[AndrewZ]

This stuff freezes rock solid

 

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