Pontiac G8

[IwannaSportSedan]

A big sedan is supposed to be more of a daily driver than anything. People don't buy 4000lb sedans for weekend warrior sports cars. (like they do for 350Zs... I am not sure where you get your impressions of what people use different types of cars for...)

 

and 6 months of the year is a long time to leave a car like the G8 shored up. We got snow storms from November to April this year.

 

Not all BMWs have well over 300hp from a V8 engine under the hood. 2WD can be "manageable" in the winter, but my point is that AWD is better. You drive a Legacy GT, I can't believe you can't see the real-world advantages of all-wheels pulling, rather than only two trying to do the same job.

 

cylinder de-activation is nice enough, but it isn't AWD, or anywhere near it. any accelleration, and the cylinders come back. and they probably are active from a standing start.

 

This sounds vaguely like another guy's story about a Honda dealer trying to convince him, a Legacy GT driver, that Honda's traction and dynamics control were equivalent to AWD. It was stupid then, and still is.

 

The G8 is heavy, (not usually a great thing to be bragging about, anyway) but is still front-engined, and thus at least a little bit front-heavy. not great for a rear wheel drive car trying to put V8 torque through the rear tires.

 

I am not saying it can't be done. I am not saying that it is the end of the world, nor that there won't be G8s prowling around the midwest in the winter.

 

But given the choice, AWD wins, hands down, every time in the snow and slick stuff. I would put my Legacy with snow tires up against anything short of a snow-optioned 4x4 in the snow for traction, and no, I am not talking about off-roading, or drift-busting, just snow-covered roads, and foul weather on the road. A properly shod outback, forester, or baja would be even better, with more ground clearance.

 

But luckily in the Legacy's case, it doesn't pay much of any price for winter capability when it comes to summer performance. A change of tires, and it becomes an AWD road-burner, where the taller vehicles don't handle as well.

[05GT Guru]

Where do you get off saying i think the g8 would be better in winter. I never once said that, all i said was a g8 could easily be driven in winter. I drove a 79malibu with over 400trq to the wheels when i was a one wheel wonder and it worked fine with winter tires. And who really wants a 350z as a second car, liek i stated earlier i would never pay for a second car that the same high output engine and tranny are in my neighbors wifes altima or maxima. I bet that when some kid in his moms altima pulls up next to you and beats you cause his car is 300lbs lighter than your 350s that you wil lbe liek why did i buy this again. Some weekend warrior lol

[Actuary]

For snow driving:

 

Obviously, as far as acceleration is concerned, AWD with snow tires is always better.

 

However, for stopping, it doesn't matter. And most people get into trouble when they're going too fast and need to stop. In this situation, RWD with snow tires is better than FWD or AWD with all-seasons.

 

It's an interesting phenomenon where people who drive AWD feel that they're immune to losing control in the snow, whereas people who are driving a RWD V8 know that they're one good hard push on the gas pedal away from being backwards or in a ditch.

 

As a result, I find that AWD SUVs are the ones you see in the ditch most often.

 

The bottom line is, once you're moving, it's all about tires and driving style/skill, and your drive axle(s) means very little.

 

So if you're looking at the G8, don't let the fact that it's not AWD slow you down, as long as you're willing (and have storage space) to swap tires twice a year.

[05GT Guru]

Thank you:wub:

[IwannaSportSedan]

Guru, you were the one talking about not wanting to even consider a G8 with AWD.

 

And, Actuary, it sounds like you've not used down-shifting to slow a car in the snow without locking up the brakes, or freaking-out the ABS system trying to keep from locking them.

 

Engine braking through all four tires, with a manual transmission can sometimes work when ABS freaks out.

 

I agree with the invincibility aspect, but that is more psychological than technical, other than most SUVs trying to use marginal all-season tires, and people thinking that AWD/4WD overcomes inferior tires, when it certainly doesn't. What kind of rubber is on the ground makes more difference than ANYTHING else.

 

I'll put it this way. I prefer all 4 wheels having brakes, rather than just two, and all 4 tires being fully inflated, rather than just two... and so I also prefer all 4 wheels having a driveshaft, instead of just two, when it comes to inclement weather.

 

Using AWD properly is a matter of skill, and it is a tool that 2WD cars don't have at their disposal. And I also swap tires twice a year and store the off-season tires, for both my RWD *AND* my AWD car. I do have 16 wheels and tires for two cars, and it is VERY well worth it.

 

I didn't mean to say that a G8 was a bad car. But for a midwest driver, an AWD version wouldn't be as bad as Guru made it sound, even if it is a V8 beast. ESPECIALLY if it is a V8 beast.

 

But still, my point exists. As a midwestern driver, who drives just shy of ten thousand miles in the winter every year, I will buy another Legacy with AWD before I buy a RWD G8, for the AWD, even if the G8 is a better car otherwise. AWD is that important.

 

I have owned multiple RWD, multiple FWD, a 4x4, and now AWD, and driven them all through the winter. AWD is THAT good, that I will not easily give up AWD in the winter after now. And if G8 offered it, the way Charger/300 do, and Taurus does (neither as good as Subaru, either), it would HELP the G8 sell in the midwest, and the northern climates.

 

BTW, Guru, I rescued a guy from the side of the road in a blizzard who was driving a Firebird on all-season tires. Not just less capable than my AWD, but DANGEROUS. I have been there, and done that in other RWD cars, Chevy, Ford, and Mazda, and won't choose to do it again, if I can at all help it, not even with a low-power car. Winter daily driver will be an AWD car, almost certainly a Subaru, even if it has to a beater Subaru for some reason.

[05GT Guru]

A G8 GT will drive 1000tiems better in the snow than a firebird, i dorve my 96 forumla in the snow once, never again, i can leg press the back tires of the car off the ground, there is no weight back there, its far worse in the snow than a 4100lbs car, and a g8 would be close to 4400lbs if it were AWD, your getting into SUV weight now lol. My v8 cars i like RWD, im a straight line racer mostly and there nothing faster than rwd, actually RWD pretty much has the advantage in most racing if you can hook lol

[SLegacy99]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but I do hope that Pontiac does something to make the G8 fuel efficient instead of just cancelling it.

 

I had read that Pontiac may no longer be a performance brand once the CAFE standards begin taking effect in 2012. And if Pontiac is another Chevy or Saturn, then what is the point?

[05GT Guru]

There is only so fuel effiecent you can make that car, the gxp 6 speed maual people will see 28mpg out of that car im sure, i used to get almost 30mpg freeway in my 2000 Trans Am 6 speed. but they will never rate those cars that high, and if you think about it, no high performance car is getting 30mpg. GM has actually had some of the best mpg sports cars, the ls7 vette some guys on forums are reporting 26-28mpg with 505hp lol.

[chenc544]

Pontiac will have to go to DI V6 turbo just like what Ford is doing. Pontiac will sell way too many of the G8 V8 to make it feasible to meet fleet CAFE standard. I think new Camaro will be in the same boat. I'm not particularly worry about the Corvette V8 since it's not a mass market model. The Corvette still needs to be more fuel efficient but I think by making it lighter it should be able to keep the V8.

[05GT Guru]

How much lighter can they make it, its 3200lbs and the car isnt small, next to a 350z its a pretty big car. Also the day they make a non v8 vette is the day i cry myself to sleep

[chenc544]

Also the day they make a non v8 vette is the day i cry myself to sleep

 

You do know that Chevy made inline 6 Corvettes right?

[SLegacy99]

Pontiac will have to go to DI V6 turbo just like what Ford is doing. Pontiac will sell way too many of the G8 V8 to make it feasible to meet fleet CAFE standard. I think new Camaro will be in the same boat. I'm not particularly worry about the Corvette V8 since it's not a mass market model. The Corvette still needs to be more fuel efficient but I think by making it lighter it should be able to keep the V8.

 

I think Corvette could benefit from a smaller, DI V8 and of course active fuel management. We see 416 HP from the Lexus 5.0L. Compare that to the 430 HP in the 6.2L Corvette motor. I realize lower displacement doesn't always = fuel efficiency, but we proper engineering it should for a vehicle like this.

[05GT Guru]

Yeah not for 50 years lol

[Actuary]

It's amazing the performance and fuel efficiency GM has been able to squeeze out of their pushrod V8's. Imagine what they could do if they applied all of that engineering to something fundamentally more efficient and modern, like DI DOHC. I think the engine in the HHR SS/Cobalt SS is a sign of what is to come. They've got a 2.0L Turbo I4 churning out 260 hp,lb-ft. I believe it is direct injection as well.

 

I for one would be excited to see a DI Turbo V6 churning out 400+ HP in a RWD car. I realize there are traditionalists who are obsessed with large displacement pushrod V8s, but maybe the time has come to move on to more advanced technology??

[05GT Guru]

Im not against chevy making a turbo v6 car, just not in the vette. The vette is the top of the line for GM they wont let any other car have more hp from factory. They even lie sometimes to make the vette look more powerful, the ls1 vette was rated 350hp and the ls1 camaros and Trans ams were rated at 305 and the ram air versions at 325 when in reality they all made 350-360 at the crank regardless of car or ram air option.

[godwhomismike]

I am strongly strongly considering one of these. I gotta set up a test drive one of these days. Only thing that stinks it the omission of XM or Sirius radio. Other than that, seems like an awesome package, plus it's very comfortable inside it.

 

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[SubLo]

I think Corvette could benefit from a smaller, DI V8 and of course active fuel management. We see 416 HP from the Lexus 5.0L. Compare that to the 430 HP in the 6.2L Corvette motor. I realize lower displacement doesn't always = fuel efficiency, but we proper engineering it should for a vehicle like this.

 

You turbo fanbois tend to harp on peak numbers too much IMO. Peak numbers are half if not less than half of the story. American V8s are about flat torque curves with usable torque across the entire rev range. Yes, GM/FoMoCo/DCX could make SBs 8K 600hp screamers but at what price? The price is long-term reliability, low-end torque (mostly relating to towing/truck motors), public perception/marketing and probably a couple of other reasons I'm missing. GM engineers have long chosen relatively lower reving configurations for these reasons - not that they absolutely have to do so or incapable of matching Euro/JDM high-reving engine outputs. It's a choice.

 

BTW, FoMoCo's Aussie sister is already launching a sweet 4.0l turbo six with astounding performance in my book.

[05GT Guru]

Yes the lexus is-f with 415 is a nice engine, the 5.0, but how much power do you think you could get out of one if it was built, ill tell you about 500hp and it would take about 30grand in parts for that engine, now the Gm ls2 6.0liter has seen over 650hp at the crank and it takes about 15grand to completely build that engine. Im sure the ls3 6.2liter wil lbe able to squeeze more hp than the ls2. Not to mention the is-f is rated at 22mpg freeway, with an 8 speed transmisson, my trans am dynoed 392rwhp when i sold it so thats roughly 430-440hp at the crank and i used to get 28mpg all freeway with a 6 speed. The zr-1 vette makes 625hp and is rated at 24mpg whcih means you could probably squeeze a couple more mpg out of it.

[Actuary]

You turbo fanbois tend to harp on peak numbers too much IMO. Peak numbers are half if not less than half of the story. American V8s are about flat torque curves with usable torque across the entire rev range. Yes, GM/FoMoCo/DCX could make SBs 8K 600hp screamers but at what price? The price is long-term reliability, low-end torque (mostly relating to towing/truck motors), public perception/marketing and probably a couple of other reasons I'm missing. GM engineers have long chosen relatively lower reving configurations for these reasons - not that they absolutely have to do so or incapable of matching Euro/JDM high-reving engine outputs. It's a choice.

 

BTW, FoMoCo's Aussie sister is already launching a sweet 4.0l turbo six with astounding performance in my book.

 

For a truck that's going to be doing towing, etc, yes, you want a bullet-proof low-rev torque happy engine, so the Chevy pushrod V8s are great. Although turbo-diesel is also good, and it's what 99% of semi's use.

 

But for a performance vehicle like a Vette, or a sedan that spends most of its time cruising on the highway, a higher-revving smaller turbo motor seems better IMHO.

 

As an example that reliability and high revs are not mutually exclusive, Honda for years has built relatively small, high-revving engines that are understood to be extremely reliable. Why? In practice, people rarely push them to their 6000rpm horsepower peak. But the power is there when you need/want it (in a manual tranny, at least). Not that I'm interested in anything Honda has to offer right now.

[05GT Guru]

Yes but a ls7 built can rev to 8200rpms and make power through all of them. It not like gm cars cant rev, reliability is sacrficed with forced induction on any engines. The 2.5i is better in those terms than a 2.5gt, same with a cobablt non turbo compared to the turbo. I would like to see a turbo v6 for the new camaro but not for the vette. And if you think low end trq is only good for trucks then you would be horribly wrong.

[SubLo]

Yes but a ls7 built can rev to 8200rpms and make power through all of them. It not like gm cars cant rev, reliability is sacrficed with forced induction on any engines. The 2.5i is better in those terms than a 2.5gt, same with a cobablt non turbo compared to the turbo. I would like to see a turbo v6 for the new camaro but not for the vette. And if you think low end trq is only good for trucks then you would be horribly wrong.

 

Check 5thgen.org and the other sites. We may very well get the 2.0 turbo motor found in the Cobalt in the new Camaro. Turbo 6 is not likely.

[Actuary]

This is a little off topic, but I'm not convinced that adding a turbo always sacrifices reliability and/or longevity. A NA engine has a compression ratio of about 10:1, whereas a turbo is usually 8:1. Obviously, when boost kicks in the stress on the cylinders is going to be greater on the turbo engine than in the NA, but when cruising on the highway with the turbo dormant, there will be less stress on the turbo engine than on the NA. There are a lot of turbo engines that have made it to 200K miles, and a lot of NA that have failed early.

 

Also, adding a turbo can add a lot of low end torque as well, depending on the size/configuration of the turbo(s). As compared to the 2.5i, the 2.5GT has much more torque, and the torque peak is shifted to a lower rpm

[05GT Guru]

Lol right and there are alot of turbo engines that havent made it to 50kmiles without needing a new trubo or rings. There are always N/A and turbo engines that break far earlier or later than otehrs, but the point is boost is bad for an engine period. A little turbo with a ltitle boost is obviously not as bad but there are mayn many ls1 cars with over 150kmiles on them still dynoing 300+rwhp bone stock. A turbo car with that many miles usually has blow by or oil problems. Look at how many posts there are of people on this forum about blown turbos or engines, some people arent even at 100k and are on there 3rd turbo. And subaru is actually reliable when it comes to turbo cars.

[franklin]

The G8 for 30k is a hell of a deal. If you can look beyond the hood scoop and that its a Pontiac find another car for 30 k that is better.

[05GT Guru]

Well i like the scoops and i like pontiacs, so im in