Bad news to Canadian Legacy GT/Outback XT Fans!!

[Guest]

Funny, I saw a DGM 5MT Legacy GT Wagon here in Calgary in December on the showroom floor. That's probably long sold now.

 

Ironically I wound up buying a '08 DGM 5MT Outback XT from the US instead (big $$$ savings) in mid-December. Never considered getting a Legacy over the Outback until the last week or so. The bigger brakes would have been nice, but oh well.

 

Member GTDriver is from Calgary with 08 LGT MT DGM wagon, likely he bought it.

[SBT]

The bigger brakes would have been nice, but oh well.

 

Don't forget that the LGT has a faster ratio steering rack than the Outback does too. People tend to forget that for some reason.

 

SBT

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yeah the 3.5L in the GS350 isn't faster than a LGT or anything.

 

You keep bringing up other cars, with other engines.

 

The Subaru 3.6 is not the same engine, and not a clean-sheet design as a Lexus engine. Keep in mind, that this is Toyota, one of the biggest companies in the industry, and the GS is not the only vehicle to use this engine.

 

Toyota probably makes more of these engines than Subaru makes cars. Economies of scale bring costs down, and can afford a lot more R&D.

 

But here are the stats: Directly from Lexus' website, stats for the GS350 AWD

Engine & Performance

Engine Type 3.5-liter V6

Horsepower 303 @ 6,200 RPM [3]

Torque (lb-ft) 274 @ 3,600 RPM [3]

Displacement (L /cu in) 3.5 / 210

24 Valve Four cam

Electronic Timing Dual Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i)

Compression Ratio 11.8:1

Emissions Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV II)

Performance

0 - 60 mph (sec) 5.8

Top Track Speed (mph) 130

1/4-Mile Acceleration (sec) 14.3

Aerodynamic Drag Coefficient 0.27

Fuel Economy

City (mpg) - estimated 18

Highway (mpg) - estimated 25

Fuel-Tank Capacity (gal / L) 18.8 / 71

 

Exterior Specs

Length (in / mm) 190.0 / 4,826

Width (in / mm) 71.7 / 1,821

Height (in / mm) 56.5 / 1,435

Wheelbase (in / mm) 112.2 / 2,850

Curb Weight (lb / kg) 3,965 / 1,799

 

Similar to Stage 2 horsepower, less torque than stage 2.

500lb heavier car.

Automatic transmission only

slower to 60, quarter mile, and top speed than the Legacy GT, let alone stage 2.

Same or worse fuel economy than my Stage 2 Legacy GT.

 

And it costs 46,865 with delivery charges. 50% more than the Legacy GT.

 

This is a Toyota GT luxury car, not an affordable sport sedan.

 

The 2.5 GT turbo engine is not an unpopular engine. It's basically used in the WRX, WRX STI, Forester XT/Sport/STI, Legacy GT/GT Spec B, and Outback XT. Pretty wide range.

 

The 3.0R engine is hardly a low-volume unit. It may not sell in many Legacys, but Legacys sell less than any other model in the Subaru Lineup, now that the Baja is gone, so just counting 3.0R Legacy sedans doesn't tell you much.

 

A LOT of outbacks sell with the 3.0 motor, as well as all the tribecas before the 3.6 was introduced, and the 3.6 is a modified 3.0 block, so isn't exactly unrelated.

 

So, while a couple of you may not want the 2.5 turbo, you are free NOT TO BUY ONE. Buy a 2.5i or a 3.0R.

 

But this site is dedicated to the 05-current Legacy GT primarily, while covering all others, as well. If there wasn't a small cult following of demand, this site wouldn't exist. If the car were more well known, the cult-following would be bigger, as well, more like the WRX and WRX STI.

 

Cutting off those of us who are fans isn't going to help subaru, and I don't see a whole lot of other directions for Subaru to go. Performance could have been the second prong, as well as their age-old "outdoorsy" niche.

 

But cutting the Sport sedan and wagon out of their line is showing that they aren't really going that way.

 

Where exactly do they think they CAN go? Mainstream is not a freindly place, and Subaru doesn't have the volume to afford to compete with GM, Toyota, or even Honda.

[SLegacy99]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Moan, moan, moan.

[Beanboy]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Moan, moan, moan.

 

When you like a car and/or company, and see their sales go below 200K and have a sense their best days are behind them, can see folks bitching and moaning about it.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Moan, moan, moan.

 

Hi, Pot.

 

My name is Kettle.

 

BTW, in case you didn't know, YOU'RE BLACK!!!

 

 

Nice response btw, when your points are continually proven wrong.

 

Yeah the 3.5L in the GS350 isn't faster than a LGT or anything

And the stats prove that the GT IS faster for two-thirds the money.

 

And if you couldn't tell, the topic of this thread is started with the words "BAD NEWS". Were you expecting everything to be shiny, when the likelyhood of the cancellation of the main-line Legacy GT comes out from a leaked Subaru Document?

 

I doubt Subaru even plans to make a press release about this in the future. The GT Limited is going to pass away as quietly as the non-limited trim, and the wagon bodystyle. Not a peep nor whisper from SOA/SOC. Just the sudden absence of the option code, and the people who support and want it are now left out. That is just their speed. Reverse.

 

So freakin' excuse us if some of us that truly appreciate this car for it's good qualities, *including it's turbocharged performance*, are NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT!

 

You are free to move along and amuse yourself with further hybrid musings, and greenie-think. It is clear that you aren't one of those who is affected by this.

[SubOperator]

I'd wait for SCI to announce their 2009 model line officially. Same goes for SOA. THEN we can continue bitching

[SLegacy99]

The Subaru 3.6 is not the same engine, and not a clean-sheet design as a Lexus engine.

On the contrary, the 3.6L in the new CTS isn't by any means a clean-sheet design, yet it puts outs the same figures as the Lexus 3.5L. It can be done and we all know that the 3.6L in the Tribeca is operating at full potential.

 

Nice response btw, when your points are continually proven wrong.

 

 

Quote:

Yeah the 3.5L in the GS350 isn't faster than a LGT or anything

And the stats prove that the GT IS faster for two-thirds the money.

 

No I'm right. When you compare the specs. of the GS (which is an automatic) to the specs of an automatic LGT, the GS wins hands down, as it should considering the amount of power it puts out. As for the price, well you've got me there.

 

If you are that upset, contact Subaru Canada and tell them that they should continue selling a car that they aren't making enough money off of.

[IwannaSportSedan]

How does killing a market segment, and pissing off existing turbo Legacy GT owners make them more money?

 

~4000lb automatic-only luxury cars from the two biggest companies in the market are not the issue here, and if it costs 50% more per car to get the Legacy 3.0R to that level, it won't help Subaru. Subaru is not Lexus or Cadillac.

 

And despite them both having ~300hp, they aren't "hands-down" faster than a Legacy GT. Maybe automatic is very close, but manual transmission availability is the reason I OWN a subaru. Without a manual transmission, I would be driving a Mazda, or something else with a stick.

 

Likewise, I am not going to buy a luxury-oriented 3.0R, nor a similar 3.6 if it comes along without a turbocharger. And I am not going to buy a non-performance, more-economical 2.5i either. And I am not going to buy ANY ugly impreza-based car.

 

When/If Subaru cancels the Turbocharged Legacy GT limited, and barely maintains a NO-OPTION CHOICE Spec B, I am going to buy some other brand. I am NOT going to compromize my criteria for a performance car, just to buy another SUBARU. I am not that brand loyal.

 

I want Subaru to do well, because I know that they can choose to, and when they do, they make very compelling cars, like the Garnet Red Legacy GT I am driving. But if they refuse to build it, I'll buy what I want somewhere else, I will not buy something i don't want just to have the starry-oval badge.

 

And just another 6-cylinder automatic near-lux sedan isn't going to cut it for sport sedan enthusiasts like me, and, dare i venture a guess, a fair number of people on this forum.

 

So tell me how it is good business sense to piss off the people who support you, and chase after the mainstream market cars from companies so big that that will chew Subaru up and spit them out, without even an after-taste.

 

If I wanted a Subaru Camry, i would buy a Toyota Camry. If I wanted a slightly nicer one, I would buy a Lexus ES.

 

There are a lot of regular automatic 6-cylinder sedans, FWD, and AWD, and even a few RWD. Every brand has them, from Hyundai to Mercedes Benz, and they are all competing for the same appliance buyer. Lincoln, and several others even have two of them in their lineup. Six, if you count Ford and Mercury, ten if you count Mazda and Volvo. GM has plenty, too.

 

Subaru would be a very small fish in that very big pond. That usually means: BAIT. and we all know what happens to bait, it turns in to dinner for something bigger.

 

I am not an appliance-buyer. I am a performance enthusiast. I don't want 95% of the other crap out there. I want a *performance* car that I can drive every day, and drive far on semi-frequent occasions. That is something RARER, and a smaller pond for Subaru to make a bigger splash in. But killing the Legacy GT Limited is absolutely opposite of that.

 

The ONLY way this makes sense, is if they are planning to truly and unequivocally turn the Legacy into an also-ran variant of the Outback, a sedan version cling-on, just to have a token entry into the sedan market, or to kill the Legacy off completely.

 

If that is what they want to do, good frakkin' riddance. I'll drive my hey-day Legacy GT until the wheels fall off, and ignore future Subarus entirely, and tell other enthusiasts the same. And when time comes to replace it, I'll give BMW, Audi, and others another look, or bite the bullet for a haldex-equipped Mazda6 5-door stick-shift, and grind my teeth to dust thinking that Subaru could have built a better car, but didn't.

[Garandman]

If they bring the SpecB 3.0R wagon to Canada, I may have to migrate....

[SLegacy99]

How does killing a market segment, and pissing off existing turbo Legacy GT owners make them more money?

What does Subaru care? They've already bought the cars. Subaru has already made the money off of them. And the return Subaru buyers are the ones that buy the bread and butter models, and put 150k, 200k miles on them and get a new one. Most of the LGT owners on this site did not have a LGT before. Most of the people here came from Hondas and some from Audis.

 

I am not that brand loyal.

Well you're certainly putting alot of effort into it. So I say who cares if Subaru isn't a luxury brand. Never said that they were trying to be. But, 6 cylinder engines seem to be working for other companies. Hell, Audi dropped their high performance turbo V6 for a non turbo one and it worked for them. Why not make money off of the trend?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yeah, exactly.

 

What does Subaru care, indeed. That is the whole frakkin' problem.

[SLegacy99]

I think you're right. That is their problem, they don't try to retain their customers.

 

Case and point:

A few years ago when I was having trouble with a dealer repairing my broken speedometer I called another dealer and they told me what had to be done to fix this (after I had already wasted $220) and that this was a procedure that they perform on about 10 BD gen. Legacies a year. I wrote a letter to SOA asking them to send out a service bulliten so that others who have this problem (and there have been many questions about it on this site and NASIOC) don't waste their money with the wrong repairs like I did. Their response: this is not a known problem with the Legacy. If you want your money back talk to the dealer.

 

Its crappy customer service. Will I buy another Subaru? Maybe.

 

They don't even offer the Legacy in red anymore. What about all the red Legacy owners like me and you that want another? To me red and yellow are the colors of a sports car. Its lame.

[IwannaSportSedan]

And the return Subaru buyers are the ones that buy the bread and butter models, and put 150k, 200k miles on them and get a new one. Most of the LGT owners on this site did not have a LGT before. Most of the people here came from Hondas and some from Audis.

 

So I say who cares if Subaru isn't a luxury brand. Never said that they were trying to be. But, 6 cylinder engines seem to be working for other companies. Hell, Audi dropped their high performance turbo V6 for a non turbo one and it worked for them. Why not make money off of the trend?

 

You didn't even read my post, did you? About Subaru being too small to make a large amount of headway in the mainstream sedan segment?

 

Subaru isn't a luxury brand. YOU are the one who brought up the Lexus GS350 and Cadillac CTS's V6 engines, both of those are luxury cars, with appropriate price-tags. Subaru isn't going to go after that, so using those cars as examples is somewhat fallacious.

 

Subaru, not being a Luxury car maker, but trying to compete in the normal non-performance V6 Sedan category is going to DROWN in a sea of competitors.

 

All of the I4/V6 sedans between $20 and $35k that the Legacy 2.5i and 3.0R have to compete against:

 

Audi; A4 and A6, slight A3.

BMW: 1 and 3 series sedans.

M-B: C-class.

Chevy: Malibu and Impala

Pontiac: G6 and G8

Buick: Lacrosse, maybe Lucerne

Saturn Aura

Ford: Fusion and Taurus

Mercury: Milan and Sable

Lincoln: MKZ, and MKS

Mazda: Mazda6, and maybe Mazda 3 at the low end.

Volvo: S40 and S60

Jaguar X-type until it is finally gone.

Lexus IS and ES

Toyota Camry, Corolla on the low end.

Honda Accord, Acura TSX and maybe TL.

Infiniti G35

Volkswagen Jetta and Passat

Mitsubishi Galant (sells less than Legacy)

Hyundai Sonata, Azera, AND Genesis.

Kia Amanti

Chrysler Sebring and 300 6-cyl.

Dodge Avenger and Charger SXT

 

I'd say that is a pretty long damn list of cars to compete with.

 

Now, if you narrow it to 200+ hp sport sedans with manual transmission option, the list narrows sharply.

A4, (maybe A3)

G35

BMW 1 and 3.

TSX

Mazda/Mazdaspeed6

Maybe Volvos.

 

Narrow that further with AWD, and it truly becomes exclusive company.

Audi A4 (more expensive than Spec B, similarly equipped, and less powerful)

3-series (Easily WELL more expensive)

Mazdaspeed6 (no longer produced, during model transition to new body)

G35 doesn't have AWD with manual transmission on the same car.

 

And if Subaru doesn't want to have one of the fastest, and best-value options in that select company, then maybe we shouldn't care about Subaru.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I think you're right. That is their problem, they don't try to retain their customers.

 

Case and point:

A few years ago when I was having trouble with a dealer repairing my broken speedometer I called another dealer and they told me what had to be done to fix this (after I had already wasted $220) and that this was a procedure that they perform on about 10 BD gen. Legacies a year. I wrote a letter to SOA asking them to send out a service bulliten so that others who have this problem (and there have been many questions about it on this site and NASIOC) don't waste their money with the wrong repairs like I did. Their response: this is not a known problem with the Legacy. If you want your money back talk to the dealer.

 

Its crappy customer service. Will I buy another Subaru? Maybe.

 

They don't even offer the Legacy in red anymore. What about all the red Legacy owners like me and you that want another? To me red and yellow are the colors of a sports car. Its lame.

 

Now, see. I agree with that whole post. it's 'mazing.

[camber]

I'd wait for SCI to announce their 2009 model line officially. Same goes for SOA. THEN we can continue bitching

 

Only a couple more days, until SCI officially releases the 2009 lineup.

[BigT]

Not sure if anybody has thought about this, but getting rid of the legacy GT and having only the spec B could be going the way of having a wrx and setting up for a legacy Sti. I'm sure that people are tired of hearing that, but it is a possibility. I would have thought that it would have made more sense to have no spec B, and only a GT and LSti, but maybe they thought that the gap would've been to large to fill from GT -> LSti.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If the Spec B is all that is left, it still costs $34k, and only comes in two colors, and only a couple hundred are built, then it is NOT an option.

 

It is too hard to find, and if you can find one, it is not up to the buyer's choice.

 

Why on earth would I spend that much money, especially in a downturning economy, on a car with no options or choices?

 

If it turns out that SCI (SOC, SCI... whichever they call themselves) offers the Spec B in any color on the Legacy palette, and for 30k, and in enough numbers to properly serve the market left open by the lack of the GT Limited, then maybe.

 

But I have a feeling that isn't going to be the case. The sheet doesn't say that they are going to offer it in any color besides white or diamond gray. Why not open it up, and bring the price down, in line.

 

If they do this in the US, which I can completely see happening, There will be a giant gap between the 2.5i Legacy(20-24k), Impreza (low 20s at most), and even WRX (26k?), vs. GT Spec B (34k), 3.0R(32-33k), and STI (34-39k)

 

An 8 thousand dollar price gap between the two seems like quite a chasm in such a small lineup. I guess they really want people to buy Foresters and maybe Outbacks in that price gap, but not low-ride-height cars.

[mutant 9]

I think this may be a good move on SCI's part regarding the drop of the LGT. What I hope they will do is move the 3.0R down in price taking over where the LGT was, at the same time hopefully having the nav on the SPEC B as an option to lower its price a bit to.

 

If the do this right they can make the SPEC B the sport legacy option and hopefully they will add 20 HP to make it the truly the sport legacy. As you can see it will now be available in more than just light and dark silver and will have a harmon kardon audio system. Great changes.

 

Price the 3.0R at $28-$30 like the LGT used to be and the SPEC B at $31-$33 and you have a logical product line with less overlap than in the 07 and 08 model year.

[SubieDriver]

When the 3.0R becomes the 3.6R in '10, they'll definitely have to bump the performance of the GT/Spec.B for '10, especially if they eliminate the GT. If no bump for the Spec.B, they'll have exactly the same situation they have now - sluggish sales.

 

A lineup like this would be good: 2.5i, 3.6R, Spec.B, LSTI.

 

2.5i = $20-25K

3.6R = $25-30K

Spec.B = $30-35K

LSTI = $35-40K

[IwannaSportSedan]

you guys realize something????

 

The 3.0R and GT Spec B are very similar.

 

The only difference is the drivetrain and colors, which is true now with the '08s.

2.5GT SpecB gets two gray colors only, 2.5T and 6MT. (now white replacing one of the grays, according to the leaked sheet.)

3.0R gets most of the colors, including two browns, 3.0R and 5EAT.

 

Other than that, the cars are equipped almost identically, down to the Bilsteins, and even the memory seats.

 

Obviously they are being differentiated by the GT Spec B being sporty. and the 3.0R being not-sporty and more mainstream.

 

And they are almost identically priced, except that the 3.0R might have optional NAV, rather than mandatory, and the base sticker price reflects it. That should be the case on the Spec B, too. Should have been that way since '06.

 

The 3.0R is not going to slide down, and over into the GT Limited's sporty segment. It isn't dressed as a sporty car.

 

I think that without bluetooth, automatic headlights and optional HIDs, no Auto-up windows, and other "bits and bobs" that Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Volvo and even possibly Mazda do have...

 

I think the GT Spec B and 3.0R Limited, or whatever they want to call it... should BOTH move down. $28k base price, optional equipment puts it up to $30-31k, and MARKET it. PUT THE THING ON TV.

 

The chassis fixed costs are well into their amortization schedule, and the "decreased complexity of manufacturing fewer variants" should be reflected in the price, as a price cut for next year. Even if the '10 Legacy series gets a slight price bump, better that it start from the upper 20s, than bump up from the low to mid 30s. Bumping up from there means mid to high 30s, and there is a lot better equipped cars for that money for the non-Subaru loyal buyer to be attracted to.

 

Market the 3.0R as a better-AWD, more reliable, safer alternative to the mainstream, and a normal sedan relative of the popular Outback and SUV Tribeca. PUSH the AWD differences HARD. Most cars are optional, and the option is Haldex, or other part time rear-assist. Even G35 is kinda Front-wheel assist, albeit that is better than some others. Push that it is proven and more robust than other AWD. Push the traction comparison test, even if it has to be gimmicky like the Toyota Tundra test-trials commercials.

 

Market the 2.5 GT Spec B as a fire-breathing manual transmission AWD turbocharged monster. A relative of high-jumping, gravel-throwing championship rally cars, and a Sport Sedan for the enthusiast who knows what makes a Subaru a Subaru, and appreciates performance per dollar.

 

A horsepower bump would help with that. 290hp and torque would be fine from a stock tune, with the same turbo as the STI, with the black manifold and engine cover as current, so not to steal the red "bling" from the STI's engine, or it's 15hp higher peak number claim to fame. I wish DCCD would come to the Spec B as well, but I think that would be viewed by SOA or higher-ups also as stealing the STI's thunder. I wish they would get over that, and just use STI as a performance brand for multiple models.

 

Market it deliberately as the performance car between the affordable WRX and the Rally-rep WRX STI, splitting the difference in price and power, and appealing to the less boy-racer person who might drive it to a professional job, and park next to their co-worker's german hardware with confidence.

 

And for PETE's SAKE, PAINT THE DAMN THING MORE THAN TWO COLORS!!! It is a crime that the canadian option sheet shows that Ruby Red is coming (back, since GRP departed) for the 2.5i but not for the Spec B as the sole remaining turbo model. It's a damn paint booth that ALL of them run through, paint the damn car RED, or whatever colors you have on hand. Add a few more, while you are at it, like maybe WR Blue!!!

 

A more aggressive front bumper cover design, and the STI lip spoiler on the trunk might not hurt, either.

[SubOperator]

 

And for PETE's SAKE, PAINT THE DAMN THING MORE THAN TWO COLORS!!! It is a crime that the canadian option sheet shows that Ruby Red is coming (back, since GRP departed) for the 2.5i but not for the Spec B as the sole remaining turbo model. It's a damn paint booth that ALL of them run through, paint the damn car RED, or whatever colors you have on hand. Add a few more, while you are at it, like maybe WR Blue!!!

 

WR Blue.... Ohh precious ... (exhales like the old man from the Family Guy... )

 

But seriously - agreed. It's a shame to offer your *supposedly* top-line car in only two, and NOT the most popular per say, colors.

[Garandman]

No turbo legacy's that would suck! My Legacy GT is coming off of lease next October. I don't want the dog of an engine that is know as the 3.0 H6. Its a step backwards from the 2.5T it guzzles more gas for less power. //

All BS, but

 

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

 

If Subaru was serious about moving upmarket, they would have brought the SpecB 3.0R wagon sold just about everywhere else.

Check out from 22:20 at [ame=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4486568282229035994&q=fifth+gear]Fifth Gear season8 episode9 12/5/2005[/ame]

[Guest]

VVG we know you're partial to the H6, but it is step back from 2.5 turbo from performance viewpoint. "Dog of an engine" is of course not justified, either. Fine engine, but exciting it is not. If they offered it in a Legacy 3.0R SpecB wagon with 6MT, yeah that would be nice choice, but frankly there would have been probably even fewer buyers for it than for the LGT wagon.

 

Maybe not - Americans believe in displacement. If they offered enough "luxury" options (including HIDs for example) maybe they could bit into Audi/BMW market more. It is moot anyway, since SOA completely failed to advertise Legacy, both sedan and wagon. If people do not know you sell something, they won't buy it.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Don't forget that Australia also gets two other special editions, or at least has in the past...

 

The Blitzen (one year was 2.5T, next was 3.0R), and the Liberty GT Tuned by STI, once the turbocharged car got sorted out for the Australian market, with the 2.5t, rather than the 2.0t