SLegacy99 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Stop throwing the 3.0L into this because its obviously not a replacement for the 2.5L turbo and I never even said that it was. A direct injected 3.6L (the larger displacement allows for more torque FYI than the 3.0L. Ya know just in case you didnt know) is going to be more powerful and more fuel efficient than what you have now. And there's no reason why SOA can't mate a MT to an H6 in the future. They just don't do it now because there is no need for it supposedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 You are the one who keeps touting the Subaru Legacy H6 as a GT replacement. I am operating on YOUR premise. The Tribeca's current 3.6 liter H6 has the following stats. (pasted directly from the current Subaru site.) 256-hp 6-cylinder SUBARU BOXER engine 247 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm Direct injection on a normally aspirated 6-cylinder will up that a little bit, but it isn't going to crack 300hp and torque on DI alone. Just isn't gonna happen. G35 has 300-330hp. Pontiac G8 is going to have WAY over 300hp with a highly tuneable small-block. The Audi A4 has a turbo, and those are easier to push harder with tuning. BMW has their twin-turbo I6, and Ford is even bringing their EcoBoost twin turbo V6s to market, if you don't mind FWD or Haldex. Hyundai's Tau V8 makes 340+hp, and probably has more room to grow. Subaru is behind on 6-cylinder power and DI isn't going to fix it, or make it perform as well as these other cars. Unless they re-develop a turbocharged version of the EZ3x series, the Subaru H6 isn't going to be a power-player. That doesn't make it a bad engine. it just makes it a nice, but non-sporting engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 The Tribeca's current 3.6 liter H6 has the following stats. (pasted directly from the current Subaru site.) 256-hp 6-cylinder SUBARU BOXER engine 247 lb-ft of torque at 4,400 rpm Direct injection on a normally aspirated 6-cylinder will up that a little bit, but it isn't going to crack 300hp and torque on DI alone. Just isn't gonna happen. 1. The 3.6L isn't running at full potential. Remember, its tuned to run on regular gas. On a higher octane they could sqeeze more power outta this 2. The Lexus 3.5L and Caddilac 3.6L both put out between 260 and 270 hp, but in DI form they both put out over 300. There's no reason why a properly tuned Subaru 3.6L couldn't do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmswinger Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Maybe the states will follow suit and the spec-B will drop in price? I would think that this is there best solution. Since they will not want to invest any money into any type of engineering on this current gen Legacy. What I think they will do is stuff more content into the car for less money. This is the best thing for Subaru to do. Since it will allow them to lower some of their cost and they will be able to maybe draw in a few people who don't care about the age of the car. I for one am looking at the 09 Spec B as my number 1 choice. I just hope they drop the price another 2K and hopefully the new HK radio is nice. As for the rest of the car it is fine. More power would be nice but not needed and will not be done as this would require Subaru to invest money. Lets hope they do something good for the customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 They'd have to put the 5EAT into the Spec. B if they did that. I'd be curious to know how many of the Legacies sold each much are GTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Both of the Lexus and Cadillac engines are clean sheet designs, that were designed for the possibility of DI, and were designed with luxury car budgets in mind. Those engines probably have more money into development than Subaru could afford to pay. That is GM and Toyota, the two biggest players in the market. Subaru is the SMALLEST. The 3.6 liter was an adaptation of the 3.0R engine, and several compromises were made to get that much swept volume out of a comparatively small engine block, to keep the length and width to acceptable limits. There is no guarantee that direct injecting the 3.6 will make similar gains, even with higher compression and direct injection. that kind of cylinder pressure could cause problems with the bent-by-design con-rods, thin depth pistons, and not-optimized cooling system. More power means more pressure, and more heat. No guarantee that the rest of the engine can handle that, and still maintain subaru's reliability reputation. Even if just a percentage of them fail, it might be too many. On the other hand, Perrin and others have built 400-500hp H6s with 3.0 bottom ends with strong, straight rods, and new and un-bored cylinder walls, and forged, coated pistons. (The engine is not closed-deck, so thin cylinder walls, either bored out, or factory wide-bore 3.6 block, could be a vulnerability with head gaskets and cylinder cracking.) A turbocharged powerplant from the factory always has much more potential than a naturally aspirated, small displacement engine, and less expensive to get more power from. And if you are talking about DI, high compression, and premium fuel, anyway, it is a stone's throw to lower compression, less swept volume, and a turbocharger. With DI, that might not even require premium fuel. DI resists pre-detonation by definition. But this is all very hypothetical, and either way, it means subaru doing some major work on their CURRENT H6 lineup before either option would be viable. 2.5 Turbo GT Legacies appear to be getting another hard knock much sooner. If Subaru somehow thinks that a 2.5 Turbo is viable as a normal trim line car, (due to their own lack of marketing) then I doubt they are going to put a lot of money into making their H6 into a killer engine, when they won't use their already killer STI-grade H4 in the Legacy, as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 won't use their already killer STI-grade H4 in the Legacy, as is. Just to remember: 2004-2007 STI engine is identical to LGT engine. 2008 STI adds exhaust AVCS which LGT does not have (yet?). Just different turbo and intake plumbing. I have no idea how much more it costs them to source VF39/VF43 as opposed to VF40/VF46 but it can't be much. They simply keep LGT power lower so they can have their Impreza STI flagship. To me it's totally incomprehensible why they did not introduce real STI-grade LGT back in 2005. All needed parts are there, just bolt them onto the car. They could have their $36-37k Legacy STI (in 2005 prices) and their $32k Impreza STI, to cater to both older enthusiasts and boy racer ones. Even if they were internal competitors - so what? Total sales should be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 They seem not to understand that it isn't a two way street. A Legacy STI with the same 305hp as the WRX STI would appeal to a different audience than the WRX STI, and would probably pull more sales from Audi, Infiniti, and others, than from WRX STI. Especially if they support both models with marketing. BUT, if they do as one of their australian execs mention, and sell a WRX at $30K, with ~270hp, right into the teeth of the current, UNSUPPORTED Legacy GT Limited, the Legacy would probably lose out. But then again, maybe it is too late. With this canadian leak showing that the GT Limited is gone anyway, maybe they are clearing the road for a $30k mid-range WRX anyway. Maybe just throwing that last bone in the form of the Spec B to those of us here, the few Legacy holdouts. If they do it right, it is a slight slap in the face, if they do it wrong, like they seem to be good at, it is a complete abandonment of the Sport Sedan segment at that price point, and a true insult to those of us Legacy fans here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4wantab Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Iwanna, the bent-by-design rods are fine. I hadn't really heard of that term, however what they did was rotate the cap so the end of the bolts and nuts would not hit the block when the crank was rotating. The rod is still straight just end cap is rotated, it was a neat packaging trick. I would also rate the rerouted cooling better than the 3.0. but, I doubt that there will be much forced induction either on the 3.6, at least not factory. The cylinder liner thickness was decrease so I don't think it can handle much for long. I agree there plenty of improvements to be done on the H4 turbo motors. But it sure looks like they are being dropped. Peace, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 The H6 Legacy is not going to be as exiting as the current turbocharged Legacy GT. It will be a normal low-ride sedan, that otherwise is as nice, calm, and sedate, just like the LL Bean Outback. Has anyone driven an 08 3.6L Tribeca? I only ask because for a NA H6 in a 4,000+ larded up vehicle, it's very quick and very powerful. Mated up to the new 5EAT, it's really a day-and-night difference between the 3.0 H6. This engine actually impressed the heck out of me and I'm not easily impressed. There is a deep well of torque and it accelerates like a freight train - at WOT it fairly rocks to its redline (with a nice boxer growl that's waiting for good sound-off gear). Mix in a heavy dose of STI DNA, not just the "bits" below deck, and you've got a potent combination that runs on 87 octane. Coupled with an appropriately dialed-in 6MT, or even a 6EAT, in a lighter vehicle, this would be a combination that I would certainly consider (sedan or wagon). Would this be a GT, or 3.6R - I really wouldn't know, but it would be one smooth, powerful machine. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obsessotron Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Not being critical - just wondering if that doesn't epitomize socialism? I suppose that the masses get whatever is available, when it's available, even auto choices. No criticism taken, you are absolutely right. Canada has some very strong socialist values/themes running through the core of its culture. This, coupled with complacency disguised as patriotism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Wow, I didn't see this coming. Good thing I bought when I did, and I'll be rocking my 08 DGM GT wagon 5MT for some time to come! Be glad. I just found out there one single 08 LGT MT wagon left in Canada. It's a DGM and a demo with few thousands of kms. Probably last ever (semi) new to be had in North America. I am really not fan of DGM. If it was OBP or even QSM I'd consider buying it. Apparently I am bit too late, by the end of Dec. one supposedly could get one built to order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gire Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 From observations in quebec, the province...You dont see many GT's or outback XT's anyway...yes its an interesting move but maybe its related to the fact that buyers dont buy them as much.... all you see on the road are 2.5i's and 3.0r outbacks...many 3.0r outbacks Bingo. Why would Subaru continue to build a specific car for us, the turbo Legacy enthusiast? We are a very small percentage of their sales. It doesn't make financial sense for them, obviously. They think we'll all just buy the WRX if we want a turbo Subaru... and they miss the point entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The thing is... If they can't please the people who WANT to support Subaru's sport sedan product... how can they GAIN marketshare from other sport sedan buyers, and make MORE sales? This isn't about making sport wagon buyers buy outbacks. This is about making Audi 2.0T buyers consider Subaru, or G35 buyers. or TSX buyers, or IS250 buyers, or Volvo and Mazda buyers, or Saturn Aura buyers. Or the buyers impressed by "Formula One Frank" driving his I4 stickshift Fusion. Or people who want something sportier, and more satisfying to drive than a new Malibu, Camry, or Accord. Subaru can't think that they can *unsuccessfully* try to shuffle their customer base from product to product, and then hope that they attract new buyers. They will end up alienating their base, and losing the possibility of new customers. This is almost like pulling a McCain. Piss off your base, then try to convince them when crunch time comes, that you've always been their freind. When in reality, it has been about "reaching out" for the greener pastures. Then the new people go the way they were going to go anyway, and the base is still pissed off, and you are stuck on the fence with nowhere to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Nice form-response. We can't comment, or tell you anything, but be assured that we are considering your comments. Translation: Leave us the hell alone, and take what we give you when we tell you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Nice form-response. We can't comment, or tell you anything, but be assured that we are considering your comments. Translation: Leave us the hell alone, and take what we give you when we tell you to. Good ol subaru There will be a new Subie wagon, remember that concept? If they dont throw a turbo in it they will be fools. As for no turbo Legacies except for the Spec for 09, thats just an optioned out GT with 6mt, so that should do. I think Subaru is most concerned with not going out of business, #1 thing they need is sales despite what the legions of loyal fanbois will say (myself included). So imho thats what they are going for, look at the new impreza(/kia/mazda3), its actually selling up here (at least in 2.5i form), I hate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenspam Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Bingo. Why would Subaru continue to build a specific car for us, the turbo Legacy enthusiast? We are a very small percentage of their sales. It doesn't make financial sense for them, obviously. They think we'll all just buy the WRX if we want a turbo Subaru... and they miss the point entirely. Well to me offering the 3.0H6 doesn't make sense financially. Having an assembly building this engine which has been a sales dog (700 units sold) last year in the legacy line, vs 6000 2.5H4 Turbos seems like a poor choice. Especially considering that the 2.5H4 turbo is shared with the imprezza, forester. Seems there is more economy of scale to offer the 2.5H4 and drop the H6. Maybe its to help subsudize costs of building the 3.6H6 which has been in the sales dog known as the tribecca? Personally I think subaru should kill the tribecca, kill the H6 to save money. Enlarge the legacy, and give a make over to the impreza. Too me saying the Legacy GT is a niche produce and to replace it with even a more niche product 3.0R dosen't make sense unless they think they can sell more 30K WRX's once the legacy is out of the way, and it helps pay for the tribecca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 This is why I said eliminate the underpowered 3.0R and un the popular 2.5L turbo and just offer the 3.6L. It would be something worth advertising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Yeah the 3.5L in the GS350 isn't faster than a LGT or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Care to provide the performance figures for comparison? What mods are available for it? It hits 60 MPH in 5.6 seconds. 1/4 mile in 14.2 seconds. I have no idea what mods are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Simplicity, sales, desire for better fuel economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Turbos are great for fuel economy, especially now. Going to see a hell of a lot more of them on tiny engines...think .4L turbos, and bigger ones replacing big NA motors. The key is using direct injection and the processing power of modern ECUs to actually nail the correct air/fuel ratio all of the time versus going pig rich everytime a driver floors it. -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Did anyone notice on that sheet that the Spec B seems to be getting the 6cd and 1cd stereo? I guess the 6cd is an option? BTW this might be my next car:[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjjSrkhcQFI]YouTube - Mercedes Benz 300E Turbo[/ame] That song will also always be playing, even when the car is parked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Be glad. I just found out there one single 08 LGT MT wagon left in Canada. It's a DGM and a demo with few thousands of kms. Probably last ever (semi) new to be had in North America. I am really not fan of DGM. If it was OBP or even QSM I'd consider buying it. Apparently I am bit too late, by the end of Dec. one supposedly could get one built to order... The demo one sold! It's done. Farewell LGT MT wagon in North America! (looks like) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac328 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 The demo one sold! It's done. Farewell LGT MT wagon in North America! (looks like) Funny, I saw a DGM 5MT Legacy GT Wagon here in Calgary in December on the showroom floor. That's probably long sold now. Ironically I wound up buying a '08 DGM 5MT Outback XT from the US instead (big $$$ savings) in mid-December. Never considered getting a Legacy over the Outback until the last week or so. The bigger brakes would have been nice, but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.