Cool Article about the 05 SCCA wagons floating around still.. :)

[boxkita]

Quote from KillerB from that thread. Curious if hacking the oil pump to bypass the oil into the oil pan would work?

With regards your drysump, are you still using the stock oil pump or something else?

It's actually worse than that. If this were a Honda the oil would exit the bypass and go back into the pan, which isn't too bad. On a Subaru this oportunity does not exist because the bypassed oil has noplace to go, it is directed right back into the pump inlet, which IMO is not so great.

[Sgt.Gator]

Quote from KillerB from that thread. Curious if hacking the oil pump to bypass the oil into the oil pan would work?

With regards your drysump, are you still using the stock oil pump or something else?

 

That might work. Although the pressure might still be too high at least it wouldn't heat up and aerate.

 

Amd yes, my dry sump is a scavenge only system, it relies on the OEM pump for pressure. I'll post up a full explanation and pics soon.

 

It doesn't look like Pacific Raceways is going to happen for me this weekend though. I really don't have the time to do the pump swap and drive 8 hours up there too.

[boxkita]

You want slum and drive the Miata ?

[Sgt.Gator]

You want slum and drive the Miata ?

 

Thanks for the offer! I really appreciate it. Bogdan offered to share his Mustang for the Enduro too. It's great having friends that will trust me with their pride and joys.

 

I think I need to save my $$$ for the repairs. All this has pretty well blown the budget.

 

We can't miss The Ridge though!

[boxkita]

Yep, I'll be there with the Miata for the Ridge. Would like to see the wagon there.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's pics of my dry sump installation. I'm not going into details on how to do it because I doubt many of you would ever want to do it. There is absolutely no need for this on a street car. A dedicated low et drag race car could benefit. I'm guessing I have the only dry sump Legacy GT in North America!

 

In the Element Tuning Subaru dry sump system the pump is scavenge only, meaning it sucks oil, air, and blowby gasses from the crankcase and sends it to the dry sump tank, but does NOT provide oil pressure to the engine. The tank drains back to the oem oil pump which provides engine oil pressure.

 

The pump goes where the A/C unit would be on a street car. The LGT A/C bracket won't work, which means buying a 2007 STI A/C bracket, which of course costs 2x what a LGT A/C bracket does:

 

 

Notice anything missing?

 

 

And the dipstick too. I fabricated a block off plate:

 

 

Replacing the wet sump oil pan:

 

 

 

Hooked up with -12AN lines:

 

 

The tank is mounted to the roll cage where the pasenger seat would be. On the return to the dry sump plate on the bottom of the engine I mounted my oil temp sender ( see it on the driveshaft tunnel). The lines near the top of the tank are:

The top most black fitting line goes to a catch can/breather mounted in the engine compartment. One of the red/blue lines comes from the output of the scavenge pump. The other one comes from what used to be the PCV system.

 

 

The catch can/breather and firewall hoses pass thru:

 

 

The rear vents on the heads are still using the oem cross breather system to the block crankacse vent. The front vents are teed together, then teed to the former PCV vent, and on to the tank. The PCV is gone. All the former connections between the vents and the intake system are blocked off, there is no possible way to get oil and gases into the intake tract now.

 

[Sgt.Gator]

I figured out how to hook up my existing tranny and diff cooler originally installed by Phoenix Performance for the 5 speed tranny to my 6 speed. I'm bringing the tranny oil out of the front drain fitting > to the pump> thru the cooler> and back into the tranny via the second drain fitting in the tranny oil pan.

 

 

On the cooler end I hooked up a 3" intake to a bilge blower, then sealed that to the floor above the coolers. Now there are two fans feeding the coolers, the original one mounted directly on top of the coolers, and the bilge fan moving fresh air from outside the passenger window to the fan on top of the coolers. When I flip the switch to run the fans they both come on:

 

 

 

 

The new powered and sealed up system works great! No more tranny temp problems!

 

 

Track Day at ORP. Practically had my own private track day:

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Sgt.Gator

[Sgt.Gator]

Prepped and ready for the 10MM swap.

 

 

The 10MM arrives in the morning. I should be able to hit a full track day at ORP Club Saturday or Sunday.

[xt2005bonbon]

Man, I admire your persistence and courage to keep going. Good on you sergent!

[Sgt.Gator]

Man, I admire your persistence and courage to keep going. Good on you sergent!

 

Thanks!

One of my favorite quotes I try hard to live by:

 

Quote: “The slogan "Press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

 

Press on: Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.

 

Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.

 

Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.

 

Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.

 

Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.”

 

 

Calvin Coolidge

[JmP6889928]

Stay the course.

Hold the line.

Trust in God.

[Sgt.Gator]

The 11MM to 10MM swap didn't cure the oil temp issue. Back to problem solving.

 

The oil pressure data is probably not related to the oil temp problem.

I was wondering about the goofy spikes and why it went wild at 2,000 RPM. Then I discovered my oil pressure sender has a range of 0-150 psi, so how could it be logging 170-180-200-212 psi?

Cutting thru a bunch of testing, the unit displays 212 psi when the sender is disconnected. It is a VDO resistor sender. An ohm meter showed the problem, the sender is sending goofy signals.

 

A new sender is on order. Hopefully this will fix the oil pressure problem, which was never really a problem!

 

However that doesn't fix the oil temp problem. But at least I can quit worrying about oil pressures, at least for now. I did get a heck of an education on Subaru oil pumps.

 

So back to the temp issue. My tank is probably 6 feet horizontally distant, but the bottom is 6" higher than the oil pump intake. So gravity feeds the pump inlet at all times although the pump is pulling it faster than gravity would push it.

 

I know the temp sender is good and the location is excellent. In the passenger compartment away from engine and exhaust, on the line from the tank back to the sump pan. You can see it on the tranny tunnel. And I've verified temps with an IR laser thermometer.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Sgt.Gator

[Sgt.Gator]

The new oil pressure sender should arrive Friday.

 

I'm back to the dry sump pump is going too fast and aerating the oil. The theory being that the stock crank pulley is driving the dry sump at 135% of crank speed. In general dry sumps run at 50% of crank speed, but that is only important for 3 stage+ pumps that supply engine oil pressure. My DSP is only supplying scavenge, so it supposedly doesn't cause aeration problems at the high rpm.

 

Finding a larger pump pulley has been challenging. All the larger ones seem to have 6 grooves instead of four, or the wrong shaft size. I think you can run a 4 rib belt on a 6 groove pulley and be ok, but I'd rather find the correct pulley. Anything larger than 4" diameter, with 4 grooves and a 5/8" shaft is what I need.

 

The good news is that I have found a couple of underdrive crank pulleys. Generally most lightweight Subaru crank pulleys are still the stock size, but there are a couple of true undersize ones. So I've ordered an OBX billet underdrive that they claim is a 25% reduction. This should bring it down to parity, and if I can find a larger pump pulley I can slow it down even more.

 

The underdrive crank pulley also has the advantage of driving the power steering pump and alternator at 25% slower rpm. A good thing for race engine components that live in the 4K to 6.5 K range for long periods. Not so good for a DD idling in traffic a lot. I've been running an underdrive crank pulley on my Acura Integra race car for 4 years with no problems, so I don't expect any here.

 

I have thought of one "test". The tank is sitting next to me in the cockpit and I can clearly hear the air and oil running into it. Tomorrow I'm going to run the car up thru a warm up and on up to a few stints of 6K RPM and see if I can hear any changes in the sound. For example if the rushing river oil sound suddenly becomes much quieter because the oil is becoming a mass of foam, and I can graph that change in sound time (stopwatch) to a change in oil pressure and temps in the data.

 

Eventually we'll hit on the solution!

[Sgt.Gator]

I just did my garage test. Everything the same as on the track last Friday.

 

A few notes to consider when you look at the data:

 

1) The car is sitting still. There is no airflow thru any coolers except when the radiator fans kick on.

 

2) The car is under virtually no load, except the load to spin the rpm up.

 

3) The car is never in boost. Since there is no load, there is no boost.

 

Here's the data, this covers 40 minutes. The oil temp is the bolded red line. RPM is the black line. I also have water temp and boost plotted.

 

 

 

Analysis:

It took a long time to get to 200 degrees, a full 20 minutes. You can see at 16:40 the oil temp leveled out at 180 degrees, so at 17:30 I started revving the engine to get the temps to rise. They immediately responded.

 

Then at 21 minutes I went back to idle and the temps started dropping.

 

At 24:00 minutes I started revving the engine again and in only 6 minutes it went from 205 degrees to 248 degrees where I called a halt to the revving. And again in only 6 minutes of idling the temps dropped back to 205 degrees.

 

And it's not a case of water temps causing the engine to overheat, the water lags behind the oil temps.

 

Conclusion: The oil temps are not caused by high engine loads, boost, FMIC heat, air flow thru coolers, inadequate coolers, or anything else. They appear to be strictly dependent on RPM.

 

Would you expect a wet sump engine to heat up like this just from revving the engine? Thoughts from the community?

 

The good news is I don't have to spend money on track time and towing until I can at least get it solved in my driveway.

[Gex]

Perhaps there is a oil line restrictor pill that could slow the feed at the scavenge pump/aeration pump to keep it from jamming up. Forcing to much oil back into the system causing the aeration and fuel pump issues. Dry sump systems in my understanding should have pretty constant and adjustable fuel pressures (from what I see the concept dry sump is increased crank case vacuum and constant pressurization). Did that make sense?

 

The stock wet systems have the pcv so just cut crankcase pressure and tally hoe.

[Sgt.Gator]

Perhaps there is a oil line restrictor pill that could slow the feed at the scavenge pump/aeration pump to keep it from jamming up. Forcing to much oil back into the system causing the aeration and fuel pump issues. Dry sump systems in my understanding should have pretty constant and adjustable fuel pressures (from what I see the concept dry sump is increased crank case vacuum and constant pressurization). Did that make sense?

 

The stock wet systems have the pcv so just cut crankcase pressure and tally hoe.

 

My system uses the stock oil pump for pressure. The dry sump is scavenge only.

[Gex]

I should have read it a little closer... Longshot, the dry sump in car tank simply too large (you mentioned frothing?). System gets some air in it, oil pump sucks dry for a split second and heats up? Racecar problems. Wish I had more experience and insight beside armchair quarterbacking.

 

You need to sell me that original SPT oil fill cap though. I want to say I have a piece of legacy wagon racecar on mine!

[boxkita]

You need to sell me that original SPT oil fill cap though. I want to say I have a piece of legacy wagon racecar on mine!

 

I see a sideline business for Sgt.Gator...putting ordinary parts on the racecar for a lap and reselling them as genuine "racecar" parts for racecar parts prices. Could be enough to sponsor a second car

[Sgt.Gator]

I should have read it a little closer... Longshot, the dry sump in car tank simply too large (you mentioned frothing?). System gets some air in it, oil pump sucks dry for a split second and heats up? Racecar problems. Wish I had more experience and insight beside armchair quarterbacking.

 

You need to sell me that original SPT oil fill cap though. I want to say I have a piece of legacy wagon racecar on mine!

 

I *think* the problem is the dry sump pump is spinning too fast, causing aeration. I have an underdrive crank pulley coming and an oversized pump pulley too. If I'm correct that should solve the problem.

 

The SPT cap is nice.....billet aluminum, driven by great Subaru road race drivers and the legendary Tarzan Yamada....not sure I can sell it......but anything is possible!

[Sgt.Gator]

I see a sideline business for Sgt.Gator...putting ordinary parts on the racecar for a lap and reselling them as genuine "racecar" parts for racecar parts prices. Could be enough to sponsor a second car

 

Great idea John! Do you need a set of race car tire valve caps? They're worth 2 seconds a lap!

[boxkita]

I'm guessing you internet'ed similar articles:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/11/dry-sump-oiling-systems/

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-21-dry-sump-oiling-how-to-tame-the-hurricane-in-your-engine/

 

However from reading these, it looks like you are over-driving the pump. And are allowing too much air into the engine? Are you still running the PCV valve or some other crankcase ventilation system?

 

if you are adding sender units, can you add a oil pressure gauge on the lines to/from the remote tank?

 

Because the pumps are mounted externally, they are typically belt driven with a toothed or cogged rubber belt (similar to a pint-sized timing belt). The teeth on the belt prevent the pump drive from slipping. Most oil pumps are driven at about half crankshaft speed, ranging from 57 to 45 percent of crank speed. The slower the pump can be turned to produce a given rate of flow, the more efficiently it operates and the less horsepower it consumes.

 

Removing the oil from the pan and storing it in an external reservoir solves these problems. First, a properly designed dry sump tank will de-aerate the oil before returning it to the pressure pump. By removing trapped air, a dry sump ensures that the pump supplies only pure, liquid oil with its maximum lubricating qualities intact.

 

IDK if it can be done, however, can you add a vacuum or pressure gauge where the pcv connected to get an idea of internal air pressure/vacuum ? Maybe the heating of the oil occurs because the pistons are not getting sufficiently cooled due to low oil coating? (extrapolating from higher oil temps based on increased engine rpms)

[boxkita]

Great idea John! Do you need a set of race car tire valve caps? They're worth 2 seconds a lap!

 

Awesome! I wonder if that would be cheating in CSM ? I start this friday on the removing the dead weight from the Miata...hired a personal trainer.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm guessing you internet'ed similar articles:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/11/dry-sump-oiling-systems/

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-21-dry-sump-oiling-how-to-tame-the-hurricane-in-your-engine/

 

However from reading these, it looks like you are over-driving the pump. And are allowing too much air into the engine? Are you still running the PCV valve or some other crankcase ventilation system?

 

if you are adding sender units, can you add a oil pressure gauge on the lines to/from the remote tank?

 

IDK if it can be done, however, can you add a vacuum or pressure gauge where the pcv connected to get an idea of internal air pressure/vacuum ? Maybe the heating of the oil occurs because the pistons are not getting sufficiently cooled due to low oil coating? (extrapolating from higher oil temps based on increased engine rpms)

 

My system is a two stage scavenge only, which supposedly means the scavenge pump can run at super high rpms. However I think you are correct, the pump is overdriving outside it's efficiency range and aerating the oil into a foam or just heating it up. That's my next solution, reduce the pump rpm.

 

Adding sender pressure sender units won't work, I can explain when I see you at the track. Too much to type here.

 

I hope to be doing Garage Test II by Monday, latest Tuesday.

 

John from Aviaid has 5" and 5.5" pump pulleys in stock, and the 6" in 3 weeks. I recalculated the numbers and realize I need not only an underdrive crank but probably his 5.5" pulley, or the 6".

 

The problem is I'm guessing on the underdrive size right now because I don't have one in my hand to measure. They say it's a 25% reduction in crank speed for the P/S, Alt, A/C, but until I measure it I won't know for sure.

 

The numbers:

 

5.5" Crank + 4" Pulley = Pump at 137% of crank speed. This is our current setups.

 

Assuming a 25% reduction in crank size = 4.125" crank pulley which results:

 

4.125 crank + 4" pulley = 103% pump to crank rpm

 

4.125 crank + 5" pulley = 82%

 

4.125 crank + 5.5" pulley = 72%

 

4.125 crank + 6" pulley = 66.6%

 

So at 7,000 rpm with the underdrive crank and 5.5" pump pulley, the pump will be spinning at 5040 rpm.

 

Of course this is all theory now and may be a waste of time and a little $.

 

Another 818R builder is installing this: http://www.spintric.com

 

 

Awesome! I wonder if that would be cheating in CSM ? I start this friday on the removing the dead weight from the Miata...hired a personal trainer.

 

The best weight you will EVER take out of your race car. I lost 40 pounds when I adopted the Paleo-Primal lifestyle. If your serious I'll be more than happy to help you offline. Start here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com

[Mr.Goodbarf]

Any chance of you running this at an svra event? Indy please!!

[Sgt.Gator]

Any chance of you running this at an svra event? Indy please!!

 

2005 is not old enough for SVRA. Sorry!