Subaru, Toyota will build small sports car

[mattejb]

Is it possible Toyota will help Subaru develop a cheap Hybrid and a more expensive Turbo Hybrid version of this car? Would that be a fair trade?

[SLegacy99]

Is it possible Toyota will help Subaru develop a cheap Hybrid and a more expensive Turbo Hybrid version of this car? Would that be a fair trade?

Of this car, no. But supposedly Toyota is sharing its hybrid synergry drive with Subaru to go in something like the Outback or Forester.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Good.

 

Keep the complexity and weight, and extraneous stuff out of a little sporty coupe.

 

Keep it simple, sam. Easier to modify, better inherent speed and handling.

 

if this thing turns out to look good, it is going to be fantastic. If it looks bad, it'll be a heartbreak failure.

 

Much moreso than the Impreza, or other practical cars turned sporty. This is supposed to be a sporty car by design, and who wants an impractical sporty car that doesn't look the part? Then you might as well have practicality, and drive a turbocharged sedan, or hunchback 5-door.

 

People call aesthetics superficial... but in some cases, like sports cars and sporty coupes, it is absolutely not superficial, and has to be inherent, not an afterthought, or absent entirely. Otherwise, why bother? There are reasons why cars like Ferrari look the way they do, some of it is functional, but some of it is necessarily emotional conveyance of passion built into a machine.

[SLegacy99]

 

Keep the complexity and weight, and extraneous stuff out of a little sporty coupe.

 

Keep it simple, sam. Easier to modify, better inherent speed and handling.

I agree. As big of an advocate I am for hybrids, this just isn't the car for it or at least not at the moment. Keep it basic and cheap.

 

I'm glad to see that Toyota is using the Subaru 2.0L instead of the 1.5L.

[chenc544]

Much moreso than the Impreza, or other practical cars turned sporty. This is supposed to be a sporty car by design, and who wants an impractical sporty car that doesn't look the part? Then you might as well have practicality, and drive a turbocharged sedan, or hunchback 5-door.

 

So does this mean you are changing your alias to IwannaSportCoupe?

I suspect it will be a sporty 3-doors design like the old Celica as oppose to a true coupe. Speaking of which I think it makes sense for them to bring back the Celica nameplate for this car. Knowing Toyota of today I doubt it will be an overly exciting design though. A toned down version of the FT-HS is probably is the best we can hope for, but I think they are reserving that design language for the Supra/4500GTh.

[SLegacy99]

Im wondering if this is a good move for Toyota. Scion buyers are graduating to Toyotas and not buying more Scions. Seems to me that a small coupe like this would take away some of the business from the tC.

[IwannaSportSedan]

So does this mean you are changing your alias to IwannaSportCoupe?

I suspect it will be a sporty 3-doors design like the old Celica as oppose to a true coupe. Speaking of which I think it makes sense for them to bring back the Celica nameplate for this car. Knowing Toyota of today I doubt it will be an overly exciting design though. A toned down version of the FT-HS is probably is the best we can hope for, but I think they are reserving that design language for the Supra/4500GTh.

 

Maybe...

 

Or IwannaSportCoupeNextToMySportSedanInTheGarage.

 

Three doors are my favorite, as long as they are fastback, not boxy. hatchbacks like that are more practical than three-box coupes anyway.

 

I am not expecting a new Jag E-type from Toyota. But handsome is better than ugly. Although that is exactly what they tried to do with the 2000GT, a Japanese response to E-type. They could do worse than take a little inspiration from that.

 

FT-HS isn't bad, although I don't really like the blacked-out A-pillar treatment that it, the GT-R and others are seeing out of Japan lately. And the roof peak being at the top of the windshield. Roof should be more graceful than that, without being hunchbacked like the impreza 5-door is.

 

The tC isn't bad, it is simply the wrong proportions. Too tall, too narrow and too short in length. The previous Celica was better about that, actually, as was the SW20 (2nd Gen) MR2 Coupe.

 

If it had the tC cues (kinda similar to a less dramatic G37) with the Celica's size and profile, with RWD or Subie AWD... that sounds good.

 

IF it looks even remotely like the Solara, though it will be tragic.

 

IF it has the FT-HS's cockpit-designed interior, that could be really cool, actually.

 

I wanna see this.

[SLegacy99]

I'd doubt that Toyota would give it any Solar cues as that thing is aging and will be on its way out in a couple years since no one is interested it anymore.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I didn't think the 08 Impreza would be as ugly as it is, either...

 

And toyota doesn't have a great track record for moving forward with compelling, even slightly compelling design as it is. It is more likely to abandon compelling design, than to create it lately.

 

I hope they pull a rabbit out of their hat on this one.

[mattejb]

I have to completely disagree. A 250hp Hybrid sporty car is exactly what Subaru needs.

 

http://www.zerotohundred.com/uploads/meraboy/crz-1.jpg

 

You guys are if you cant see that.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Subaru can do 250 horsepower without breaking a sweat, and without the weight, complexity, expense, and complication of a hybrid system.

 

Leave the stupid batteries, electric motors, high-DC voltage lines, driveline couplings for mechanical and electric driveline interface, and all the rest of that stuff off.

 

Simple, mechanical, robust, and lightweight.

 

Hybrid drive is too complex and expensive for such a car to really justify. it is hard enough for the Prius to justify it's own expense above a traditional-style Corrolla, it takes more than 100,000 miles to recoup that cost, with replacement batteries and increased maintenance costs added to the increased cost of the vehicle.

 

I'd rather have the car lighter, which good for efficiency in itself, and better for handling and acceleration.

 

I am not bound by greenie-fashion, I don't care if my car advertises my politics, and prefer that it doesn't do that. I want a mechanically sound, reliable, and effective, light-weight sporting vehicle, not a Al Gore Ally billboard with wheels.

[mattejb]

Thats find. And for you they should have the Toyota version. The Subaru version should be for people like me that are willing to spend 30,000 on a small 250+hp car with awd that gets 60+mpg and exhales fresh air.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I think you have that backwards, friend. Plus, I think the word you are looking for is "fine", not find.

 

Subaru is a brand that has a performance reputation with the WRX and STI nameplates, and lesser-known Legacy GT.

 

Toyota is the one with all the hybrids, and no performance cars to speak of, currently.

 

And even a ulev gas-burning vehicle burns fuel so completely that it actually puts out cleaner exhaust than ambient air in some places.

 

If you are willing to spend 30K on a car with clean exhaust, and such, why do you not drive a Prius, or a Camry Hybrid? I doubt you are going to be getting 250+hp AND more than 60mpg out of the same drivetrain with anything short of a fictional magic wand.

 

Power costs fuel, electricity costs fuel. The more power, horsepower or amperage, requires SOMETHING to generate it, and that is FUEL. There is no free lunch. I don't even think Lexus Hybrids get the kind of return you are talking about, with their high price tags.

[mattejb]

Your wrong about Subaru and the wrx and the Sti. Thats a very very small part of Subaru. In reality Subaru is known for their 2.5L NA Outback Forester Legacy and Impreza. Not any turbo model.

 

I believe Subarus real market would buy a lot more small awd hybrid hatchs then crazy gas drinking monsters (they have the sti for that). They could do a lot better selling and marketing an environmentally friendly sports car. It would be the only one for under 100,000 (Tesla).

 

You say it cant be done?

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/09/detroit-auto-show-subaru-b5-tph/

 

^That was in 2005. When this car would come out 60 mph highway is achievable.

 

I really cant help you if you think your idea is better overall for Subaru as a company.

[SLegacy99]

it takes more than 100,000 miles to recoup that cost, with replacement batteries and increased maintenance costs added to the increased cost of the vehicle.

Eh, thats not true at all.

 

1. The Prius costs $2000 more than if it werent a hybrid and yes the tax breaks are gone, but Toyota has replaced those breaks with all kinds of rebates and other incentives. Its not hard to negate the cost of the extra hybrid components. Supposedly the next Prius will start at under $20k, which is pretty good for a midsize vehicle.

 

2. The batteries were expected to have a life of 10 years, but experts speculate it will be closer to 15. There are news stories of several Priui hitting the 180k mile mark and Toyota grabbing them for research. Even perusing Prius chat from time to time I don't think Ive seen any stories of premature battery failure and even if that were to happen, all Toyota/Lexus hybrids have an 8 year, 100k mile warranty on the hybrid drive components.

 

3. What extra components are you going to maintain? The electric motors? No. The batteries? I don't think so. If anything less maintence is required given that the gasoline engines are smaller and aren't always running.

 

The beauty of the HEV.

 

 

All that being said, I don't think this Toyota would work well as a hybrid, at least not without Li-Ion batteries. Ni-mh batteries would just take up too much trunk space in a vehicle this size. Thats why there is no Yaris hybrid, though it has the potential to be very fuel savy.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Your wrong about Subaru and the wrx and the Sti. Thats a very very small part of Subaru. In reality Subaru is known for their 2.5L NA Outback Forester Legacy and Impreza. Not any turbo model.

 

I believe Subarus real market would buy a lot more small awd hybrid hatchs then crazy gas drinking monsters (they have the sti for that). They could do a lot better selling and marketing an environmentally friendly sports car. It would be the only one for under 100,000 (Tesla).

 

You say it cant be done?

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/09/detroit-auto-show-subaru-b5-tph/

 

^That was in 2005. When this car would come out 60 mph highway is achievable.

 

I really cant help you if you think your idea is better overall for Subaru as a company.

 

You are going to come here and tell me I am wrong???? Helluva way to begin on this forum, friend.

 

Last I checked, the WRX STI is one of the most well known subarus ever built, regardless of the fact that they don't sell as many units as the base Outback and impreza. 2.5i Imprezas don't exactly make press headlines or auto magazine covers.

 

unit sales numbers != brand recognition. Corvettes sell far less than Malibus. Which do you think are more instantly recognizeable????

 

YESTERDAY, someone instantly recognized my car as a Subaru at the gas station, and thought it was a WRX STI. Far from the first time that has happened, even though it isn't correct. People have heard of the WRX STi. People don't mistake my car for an Outback sedan, or an impreza, or tribeca. They mistake it for a WRX STI.

 

Subaru will fall flat on it's face with an "environmentally freindly" sports car. ANY company will fall flat with that. Because SPORTS CARS AREN'T PRACTICAL, and are not supposed to be. Buy a damn sedan, and leave us enthusiasts who know a thing or two to the sports cars.

 

If you think that a sports car enthusiast wants to deal with the weight and complexity of a hybrid system, then YOU are the one with the awareness problem, not me.

 

There is a reason the Tesla has taken more than three years to get to market AFTER the design was completed, have fired most of the original members, has had transmission design problems, and is slated to cost 100,000$ per unit for basically an electric Lotus Elise, which normally is a ~$40k car. A Company like Subaru isn't just magically going to make one for 20 or 30% of that price just by wishing it into existence. Doesn't work that way. IF it did, someone would have already brought that to market, and would be making a huge profit on it. Hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it will be happening within the next model year, at least.

 

The B5 TPH was a pie-in-the-sky concept, and an ugly one at that, and technically, has yet to be shown to be ANYWHERE NEAR production ready, let alone for less than $30,000, with the stats you claim to want.

 

READ THAT AUTOBLOG ARTICLE. It says that the gasoline engine has Legacy GT levels of power, with only 30% increase in efficiency due to shortened power-stroke duration, and additional torque from the electric system while off-boost and at cruise. AND it only mentions 40 MPG, not your goal of 60. That is only about 14mpg better than my 300hp stage 2 Legacy GT on the highway. And a whole lot more weight, complexity, and expense for it.

 

A turbocharged motor with Legacy GT-like power is going to emit just as much unburned hydrocarbons as the Legacy GT does, because when it is on boost, it is going to be burning just as much fuel, it is only more efficient by being on-boost less often.

 

Years of passed time does not equal more efficiency, without major development, which hasn't really been happening, or we would have heard more about it since 2005. Subaru has been working on turbo diesel engines instead, and has actually brought that to market, in europe.

 

And to you, Slegacy...

A quick glance at toyotas website... Corolla starts at 15,250; while Prius starts at over $21K. A bit more than 2000$, don't ya think????

 

I highly doubt any rechargeable battery array has that sort of useful life. The figures I've seen have said 8 years, and I think that is optimistic. I work on laptop computers for a living, and they are rated to have at least 3-4 years of useful life. The batteries are considered consumeable, and unwarranted after 1 year regardless of the coverage on the rest of the hardware, and many of the batteries don't last more than 2.5-3 years, almost guaranteeing that they'll need to be replaced at least once in the computer's useful life. That duration goes down with more frequent charge cycling, not up.

 

A Hybrid car rechargeable battery is the same electro-chemical principle, just bigger with more cells. I don't think the battery will outlast the car. Replaceing that pack is reported to cost 3 to 4 thousand dollars, on top of the 6 thousand dollar price hike for the hybrid car to begin with.

 

Electric motors have bushings or bearings, probably expensive ones if the motors are in the wheel hubs. Clutches or any other pieces of equipment that allow the drivetrain to have two independent torque inputs, rather than just one, is going to have a service life, due to wear. Any high-voltage electrical repair is also going to cost a pretty penny.

 

Even if they are warranted, that cost has to be paid somewhere, usually in the cost of purchasing the vehicle. Toyota doesn't give away parts and labor, they just expense it.

 

What is it going to cost at the end of the vehicle's service life, to properly dispose of the components of a hybrid car? lithium batteries are hazmat, just as mercury-containing compact flouorescent bulbs. Is it going to cost people money to have junk yards dispose of those cars when they are finished?

 

All for a few MPG, which prius owners have been complaining about for years, not hitting the advertised targets in real world driving cycles.

 

Hybrid drive is not a free lunch. NOTHING is.

 

Leave the enthusiast cars to the enthusiast, and go drive your hybrid sedan.

 

If this proposed Toyota/Subaru sport coupe has the driving dynamics of a Prius, or the range limitations and costs of the Tesla, you'll see "falling on their face" first hand by whichever brand brings it to market.

[SLegacy99]

There's some truth to what you say, but technology has changed. This isn't 1992 anymore. Electric vehicles have their worth.

 

And to you, Slegacy...

A quick glance at toyotas website... Corolla starts at 15,250; while Prius starts at over $21K. A bit more than 2000$, don't ya think????

 

You're comparing a compact car with a midsize. Corolla doesn't come with standard with VSC, traction control, alloy wheels, cruise control etc. like the Prius does. All of these things add cost. The Prius is not an economy car. Its got features and gizmos.

 

I highly doubt any rechargeable battery array has that sort of useful life. The figures I've seen have said 8 years, and I think that is optimistic. I work on laptop computers for a living, and they are rated to have at least 3-4 years of useful life. The batteries are considered consumeable, and unwarranted after 1 year regardless of the coverage on the rest of the hardware, and many of the batteries don't last more than 2.5-3 years, almost guaranteeing that they'll need to be replaced at least once in the computer's useful life. That duration goes down with more frequent charge cycling, not up.

What kind of batteries are you talking about here? Laptop computers, so Li-Ion? You're right they don't have as long of a life as others out there. I can tell you that my 8 year old thinkpad is good for about 40 minutes. But also, keep in mind that these batteries will be much larger than you cell phone battery or laptop's. Given the size, they will also have value even when they are defunct which will offset the cost of a new battery, but not by an overwhelming amount.

 

A Hybrid car rechargeable battery is the same electro-chemical principle, just bigger with more cells. I don't think the battery will outlast the car. Replaceing that pack is reported to cost 3 to 4 thousand dollars, on top of the 6 thousand dollar price hike for the hybrid car to begin with.

Most Americans don't drive their cars more than 10 years anyway. So a car, such as the Prius, with a 15 year battery life isn't bad. And should you need a battery after that time, used batteries will be on the market from wrecked vehicles. Not ideal, but definately cheaper than a $2000 Nimh pack.

 

Electric motors have bushings or bearings, probably expensive ones if the motors are in the wheel hubs. Clutches or any other pieces of equipment that allow the drivetrain to have two independent torque inputs, rather than just one, is going to have a service life, due to wear. Any high-voltage electrical repair is also going to cost a pretty penny.

I don't know what to tell you. Im only familiar with the maintence schedule regarding Toyota hybrid and there really isn't too much to talk about.

 

Even if they are warranted, that cost has to be paid somewhere, usually in the cost of purchasing the vehicle. Toyota doesn't give away parts and labor, they just expense it.

Which is why Im sure they are delighted that the Prius has exceeded their expectations. They expected battery failures and it didn't happen. Toyota has temporarily closed a division they had to recycle incoming batteries because they weren't getting any. Keep in mind that Japan also paid some of the development costs, so this isn't all out of Toyota's pocket.

 

All for a few MPG, which prius owners have been complaining about for years, not hitting the advertised targets in real world driving cycles.

48/45

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

At 47.2, it ppears to be in order. And the Camry hybrid is hitting above its EPA estimate. Check it out.

 

 

Hybrid drive is not a free lunch. NOTHING is.

How many times are you going to say this? Everything you say is about lunch. What are you having today?

 

Leave the enthusiast cars to the enthusiast, and go drive your hybrid sedan.

 

If this proposed Toyota/Subaru sport coupe has the driving dynamics of a Prius, or the range limitations and costs of the Tesla, you'll see "falling on their face" first hand by whichever brand brings it to market.

Im not sure why you are getting upset about this. Toyota is not offering this car as a hybrid.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Mostly I am getting upset by being called out by a noob with ~0.1% of the post count that I have, and being treated like he needs to be the one to arrive and "help me", as if I'm the moron here. That is ironic in itself, when he has exibited no amount of technical knowledge of the subject beyond simply spewing the greenie-talking-points, and quoting old articles.

 

That sort of disrespect from someone newly entering an established community, even just an online forum, is not something I am prepared to tolerate. I would call it out anyway, even if this person were disrespecting someone else here, not me.

 

I have been one of several members recently that have stood up for new members being treated with a modicum of respect, in order to display and maintain this forum's civility, and I in turn, get insulted by a person who just joined, and treats me as an idiot.

 

IF you, Mattejb, want to contribute, there are much more civil and respectful ways to raise subjects, without insulting people. Most people, including myself, don't suffer insult well. Don't be surprised to get a negative reaction if you continue insulting or disrespecting people here. Don't be surprised to be taken to task, or reported by me again, if you do.

 

About my "free lunch" comment. That is something my father and grandfather have been saying for decades. Often. I am carrying on the tradition, proudly.

 

I am sick, and more than a bit tired of people shallowly thinking that hybrid drive, or other new technology is somehow unrestrained by the laws of physics and chemistry, and somehow magically create more power without input.

 

I know your proclivity toward hybrids, Slegacy, and you seem to have technical knowledge to back up some of your points, which is not shallow, thankfully. I am willing to have that discussion from time to time. But Mattejb has not demonstrated that he wants to discuss it, but rather impose his viewpoint, and denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with his point of view, rather than defending it with logic or accurate data, and making compelling arguments to convince people. That is something that completely raises my ire.

 

Hybrid drive is not magic, it merely combines two energy inputs into a complex system, but it still requires input to create torque output. In most cases, the secondary electrical system gets input from the same IC engine that also mechanically drives the drivetrain. The only efficiency increase is a bit of captured and re-used energy that is otherwise potentially wasted.

 

That is a fine goal in some cases, but it isn't without it's cost in weight, complexity, and money. It isn't magic, nor is ethanol, nor is diesel fuel. Nor would be compact nuclear reactors in your car. It is just varying degrees of efficiency vs cost, if the technical capability exists.

 

It is hard to beat a primary fuel like gasoline for a good efficiency-to-cost value ratio, especially in a lighter-weight car which is inherently more efficient anyway than a heavy car. Weight and complexity tend to ruin the feel of a sport-oriented car anyway, by damping and overriding the handling, and convoluting the drivetrain response, both primary aspects of a sporting automobile. If a sports car doesn't deliver that, it isn't much of a sports car at all, and even sport coupes and such that have more than two seats, still try to emulate a sports car in those aspects, otherwise they are economy cars or luxury cars, not sporting cars.

 

BTW, Slegacy... The Prius IS a Corolla-based car. The hybrid drive and specific 5-door bodystyle are what make it a Prius, but the chassis underpinnings are Corolla, which is why I compare them.

[SLegacy99]

Mostly I am getting upset by being called out by a noob with ~0.1% of the post count that I have, and being treated like he needs to be the one to arrive and "help me", as if I'm the moron here. That is ironic in itself, when he has exibited no amount of technical knowledge of the subject beyond simply spewing the greenie-talking-points, and quoting old article

Fair enough.

 

BTW, Slegacy... The Prius IS a Corolla-based car. The hybrid drive and specific 5-door bodystyle are what make it a Prius, but the chassis underpinnings are Corolla, which is why I compare them.

Yes, hence the lightweight. Whats your point? Its got more features and more interior space than a Crown Vic. Its not a compact, therefore it costs more.

[Viber]

Toyota doesnt have a single performance car in their lineup. The last sporty compact they had was the Celica GT-S, and that was a fun little kick ass car.

 

If Toyota can make a similar size car, that remains low weight, and drops a Boxer and AWD in, I have no doubt it would be a big winner for Toyota.

 

Even better if Subaru gets a rebadge. There is room under the Impreza for a zippy Honda FIT fighter

[CTATV]

Thats find. And for you they should have the Toyota version. The Subaru version should be for people like me that are willing to spend 30,000 on a small 250+hp car with awd that gets 60+mpg and exhales fresh air.

 

 

shouldnt the toyota be the hybrid and the subaru be the simple well running one?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Toyota doesnt have a single performance car in their lineup. The last sporty compact they had was the Celica GT-S, and that was a fun little kick ass car.

 

If Toyota can make a similar size car, that remains low weight, and drops a Boxer and AWD in, I have no doubt it would be a big winner for Toyota.

 

Even better if Subaru gets a rebadge. There is room under the Impreza for a zippy Honda FIT fighter

 

wow, that seems disparate.

 

on one hand, Toyota gets a sport coupe successor to the Celica GTS, but Subaru gets a Yaris/Fit type subcompact econobox car...

and those are supposed to be rebadged versions of the same vehicle?????

 

that seems like two completely different things.

 

Subaru needs a new 2.5RS, or JDM-WRX/22b coupe successor almost as badly as Toyota needs an AE86 or late-gen Celica successor. I say almost, because at least the WRX, STI and Legacy GT are currently fast cars, where toyota has none. Subaru REALLY needs a styling (with performance) leader, though.

 

I don't see how they are going to make the Outback, Impreza, and Tribeca more "mainstream" than they already are. They can't exactly get MORE normal and still be Subarus. Any MORE normal vanilla, and they will fully be merged with Toyota, and just adopt the name Venza, Matrix, and Highlander, respectively.

 

Subaru can have a more attractive performance car, in the form of a sport coupe, though, and that will help Subaru's performance image, which Subaru HAS, but could use a shot in the arm of good styling.

 

Low margin efficiency cars like fit and yaris aren't going to pay back the way subaru needs, which is why most of those ultra-compacts are made by larger-marketshare companies with asian or european home-markets. Subaru needs more ROI than that to survive with. 13-18k cars have such a thin margin as it is, it would take a hundred years of production to amortize the investment in distribution of parts, and even slight development for a subaru re-brand effort.

 

Subaru can afford to leave the sub-compact efficiency marketshare to the bigger players of Honda and Toyota. They might not be able to afford to compete adequately there.

 

And Slegacy...

I was comparing prices of hybrid vs. non-hybrid before. A non-hybrid Prius IS essentially a Corolla sedan, so the price comparison is apt. THAT is my point. The prius base is ~$6k higher than the base corolla sedan. Just is, by toyota's own information.

 

I saw a Prius parked nose-to-nose with a Yaris 5-door, over lunch break a few minutes ago, and thought of this thread. The prius is longer, but not appreciably wider, and Yaris is TINY. A Prius is a "compact" car, not a sub-compact, nor a mid-size. Prius is NOT a camry Hybrid, which is why the Camry Hybrid exists. Camry is Mid-size.

 

And comparing features with a Crown Vic is pointless. The Panther platform (Vic, Marquis, TownCar) is older than most of Prius' designers, and has been around since the 70s with a few refreshes, and is just now being finally put-down. Why not compare the Prius to a 1955 Chevy 210 Del Ray sedan? About as relevant. Size is size, and has little to do with features.

[SLegacy99]

Toyota doesnt have a single performance car in their lineup.

All the more reason for them to produce the FT-HS....NOW!

 

 

And Slegacy...

I was comparing prices of hybrid vs. non-hybrid before. A non-hybrid Prius IS essentially a Corolla sedan, so the price comparison is apt. THAT is my point. The prius base is ~$6k higher than the base corolla sedan. Just is, by toyota's own information.

 

I saw a Prius parked nose-to-nose with a Yaris 5-door, over lunch break a few minutes ago, and thought of this thread. The prius is longer, but not appreciably wider, and Yaris is TINY. A Prius is a "compact" car, not a sub-compact, nor a mid-size. Prius is NOT a camry Hybrid, which is why the Camry Hybrid exists. Camry is Mid-size.

 

The 2007 Toyota Prius is a full-featured midsize car that just so happens to be the most fuel-efficient car on the market. The fact that this hybrid starts at $22K makes it all the more attractive.

From edmunds.com

 

and the for the next gen.

In addition to the new model, Toyota will also increase the size of the next-generation Prius — scheduled to arrive in 2009

Most likely to better serve as Taxis in NYC. Wagon version on its way too.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Then I guess my Legacy is a Yacht, by comparison, and by Edmund's estimation of sizes.

 

Because the Prius is NOT a mid-size car. it is pretty small, regardless of "what's coming." And won't that step on Camry Hybrid's toes?

 

Again, I only have to look outside to see one or several Priiii, Camrys, Yaris, and things like Accords, and somebody's new Malibu that just showed up a day or two ago... and compare them to a lot of other anonymous looking cars in the parking lot. It is a university parking lot, after all. Lots of appliances, and even a first-gen prius with the green decals actually put on the side doors, and lots of leftward political bumper stickers.

 

I wish I could look out there and see a slick-looking little WRB and subaru-powered sport coupe. But looking out there and seeing the baddest sport sedan in the lot, and it being my red Legacy is quite nice, too. Nicer than the two Audi A4s, and the new C-300 4-matic, and previous-gen G35x. Not a lot of BMWs, though. One other atlantic blue Legacy 2.5i with a flat tire yesterday, who got my note and inflated it.

 

But there is a Cayman out there.... and it makes me think of boxer powered sport coupes and sports cars...

[chenc544]

Then I guess my Legacy is a Yacht, by comparison, and by Edmund's estimation of sizes.

 

Prius is really not that small. It's shorter on the exterior but the interior space is actually just as big if not bigger than the Legacy sedan.

 

Exterior Prius Legacy

Length 175 in. 185 in.

Width 67.9 in. 68.1 in.

Height 58.7 in. 56.1 in.

Weight 2932 lbs. 3415 lbs.

Wheel Base 106.3 in. 105.1 in.

Ground Clearance 5.6 in. 5.9 in.

 

Interior Prius Legacy

Front Headroom 39.1 in. 37.6 in.

Rear Headroom 37.3 in. 36.5 in.

Front Shoulder Room 55 in. 54.2 in.

Rear Shoulder Room 52.9 in. 53.7 in.

Front Hip Room 51 in. 51 in.

Rear Hip Room 51.6 in. 52.6 in.

Front Leg Room 41.9 in. 44.1 in.

Rear Leg Room 38.6 in. 33.9 in.

Max Luggage Capacity 14.4 cu. ft. 11.4 cu. ft.

Maximum Seating 5 5