Subaru, Toyota will build small sports car

[lkjohnson1950]

Yes, with this joint venture, Toyota will by more of Fuji. I believe 18% was the figure in the story.

[Ruperts Trooper]

The Lotus Elise chassis may not be available to Toyota anyway - Lotus build a version of it, the Vauxhall VX220 and Opel Speedster, for GM Europe.

[Viber]

It would be a real treat if Subaru dropped an STI engine into some Celica sized pocket rocket with AWD

[IwannaSportSedan]

that is what we are hoping for here, Viber.

 

At least, I am.

[CTlegacy06]

On autoblog they say that Subaru will be making a 3000lb STi Spec C. Perhaps weight reduction has come along way but even if they do apply these methods to the new rwd there will always be added costs for compact size/low weight and especially balanced weight distribution. Thus this thing will cost 20-25k+ at least if it were to reach a 2600lb target. Not so much the "affordable" tuner of the past.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Keep in mind that the Spec C is a modification of an existing car.

 

The coupe is still in the initial design phase. There is a lot more freedom to work with materials and dimensions in the design phase, rather than just using thinner steel, more aluminum, and thinner glass, and less amenities.

[chenc544]

Here comes the competition.

The new Silvia will be based on shortened Z platform. A small displacement (1.6L or 1.8L) direct injected turbo 4 making 140-215 hp is a possibility. Nissan wants it to hit the market before the Toyobaru so we might be seeing it by 2010. Affordable RWD coupe market is getting interesting...

 

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/05/new_nissan_silvia_450-op.jpg

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/05/more-developments-on-nissans-compact-rwd-coupe/

[IwannaSportSedan]

No boxer, no sale

 

Seriously, though... infiniti is rumored to be wanting a 1-series competitor, below the G-series, as they go into the european union's markets. I wonder if this will be branded as an infiniti there, along with a potential for a small RWD I4 sedan, as well...

[SLegacy99]

Attractive, direct injected, turboed whats not too like? ...I do prefer the boxer though. This is true.

 

 

I really am intrigued my small displacement, DI, turboed vehicles from an efficiency stand point. Looking forward to seeing if the claimed improvements of the 2.0L Turbo Explorer are actual or exagerated.

[BDII]

the NVH at 2200Lbs would be unbearable.

 

You can't build a perfomance 4 seater at that weight without compromising safety.

[Ruperts Trooper]

No boxer, no sale

 

Seriously, though... infiniti is rumored to be wanting a 1-series competitor, below the G-series, as they go into the european union's markets. I wonder if this will be branded as an infiniti there, along with a potential for a small RWD I4 sedan, as well...

I doubt it'll be branded Infinity in Europe, the brand isn't used here - only Nissan.

[IwannaSportSedan]

You didn't read it.

 

Nissan/Renault is looking at introducing Infiniti in Europe in the near-ish future, and they want a 1-series competitor model line when they do.

 

It was an autoblog article last week.

[chenc544]

Here:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/01/infiniti-wants-a-1-series-competitor/

 

I don't understand why Infiniti wants a 1-series competitor. Heck, I don't understand why BMW wants a 1-series to start with... Maybe it makes more sense in the European market but it certainly doesn't make much sense here in the US IMHO.

[BDII]

I love this. An entire thread based off rumors of Subaru releasing a car that might out sell the competition.

 

Is that a dodo bird on my window sill?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Here:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/01/infiniti-wants-a-1-series-competitor/

 

I don't understand why Infiniti wants a 1-series competitor. Heck, I don't understand why BMW wants a 1-series to start with... Maybe it makes more sense in the European market but it certainly doesn't make much sense here in the US IMHO.

 

I have to agree with you, but they seem to be clamoring... I dunno.

 

1 series seems too heavy, too expensive and too small, all at the same time. Not a good combo, and not a good alternative to the 3-series, why not have the space if you are going to pay about the same for the curb weight of the car either way..

 

I am not exactly sure why Infiniti wants to follow them down that road, when Nissan so closely underpins Infiniti with FWD variants.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

I doubt it'll be branded Infinity in Europe, the brand isn't used here - only Nissan.

 

Not any more, Infiniti is launching in EU this year.

 

There was an article about it in the new TopGear or Car, and they tested the G

 

The annoying thing is that Infiniti of Europe assured the writer that they would be making a bunch of changes (different leather, switches, etc.) to bring it up to Audi/Merc/BMW spec from the US version

[lkjohnson1950]

That's because Americans are too dumb to demand the best and too poor to pay for it. We want cars thet are livingrooms on wheels, not performance machines.

[IwannaSportSedan]

That's because Americans are too dumb to demand the best and too poor to pay for it. We want cars thet are livingrooms on wheels, not performance machines.

 

I am getting very damn sick of this.

 

Americans are too this, and americans are too that. This same sentiment was expressed in other threads, as well.

 

It is bullcrap to lump everyone into that. Not everyone in this country buys the same things for the same reasons.

 

America is also always touted as being more diverse, culturally than most other indigenous countries. Which is it?

 

If we did all buy the same things, Subaru would not exist anymore, as well as many other small car companies. America has been the biggest automotive market for a very long time, and has been Subaru's biggest market for quite some time, too.

 

If Amercans only bought Fords, Chevys, Hondas and Toyotas, Subaru would sell less than they already do, would fold up shop, and try to make it work outside of the US market, and they would likely not have the revenue to do that, and would eventually get bought out by a larger company and be completely absorbed. (and I am not talking about Toyota's stake in FHI. I am talking about Toyota fully absorbing FHI)

 

There are problems in America, no doubt. Now is not exactly the most lucrative time to be selling luxury items. Lots of cheap credit have had their effect on purchases in the recent past, and our political system, and government regulation are well overstepping their bounds.

 

But the American people are not a group to be derided at the drop of a hat. They are the free-est, most industrious, most generous, and generally well-intentioned people you might come across.

 

So what if some people want comfort in their vehicles. Good for them, if they can work to afford it. Maybe I want performance, if I can afford it. The only thing limiting the market, is government regulation creating huge expenses, and bad decision making by businesses, who choose to offer products that are not compelling, or being regulated to offer a certain product over another.

 

If you are a free-market advocate, then you know that the people want what they want, and it is business' job to offer it at a competitive price, or convince them to modify their opinion.

 

If you think that is stupid, and the consumer is wrong, stupid, ignorant, or whatever... then I hope you get your just desserts, and enjoy your soviet-style living conditions, which is what happens when you trust someone else to know what is best. Because they'll decide what is best for you, too.

 

So knock it the hell off, it should be just as unpalatable to bulk-ridicule Americans as a whole, as it is to be "ethnically insensitive" to any other group of people as a block.

[lkjohnson1950]

Excuuuse me. Rant much? Americans have proven by their buying habits that they want primarily Toyota Camrys, Honda Accords, etc. Good cars, but not very exciting. Even Lexus sell way more ES than IS cars at roughly the same price point. I am not ridiculing Americans, I am saying they consistently choose comfort over performance and it is a prime reason we don't get cars like the Legacy STI. Manufacturers are convinced they won't sell here, and they're probably right. At least not in enough volume to make a profit.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yeah. I do rant "much." Ask anyone.

 

It isn't about exciting or not. It is about legally binding people to buy one thing or another.

 

If the buying public doesn't buy performance that is different than CAFE, NHTSA, EPA, DOT, CARB, and all the associated fines, fees, taxes, and expense making small-volume performance cars untenable by small companies like subaru.

 

The thing is, I don't think the market prohibits performance cars nearly as much as regulations and expensive compliance does.

 

Without those expenses, or at least with fewer of them, niche performance vehicles become profitable, and available.

 

That is government, not consumers.

 

The consumers consistently buy out the entire production of performance cars, like Ford GT, Challenger SRT8 for this year, Mustang Shelby GT500 and KR, Z06 and ZR1, CTS-V, M3, M5, Ferraris, Porsches, etc.

 

The buying public is not the problem, and doesn't incur penalty, the government makes it hard for companies to compete while making a profit after meeting all the rules and regulations. The lower the MSRP of the potential car, the more they have to sell for the margin to overcome those expenses.

 

It is convenient to blame the appliance buyers, but they are doing what they will always do, and are free to do. Government is the one meddling.

 

If anything is going to keep a turbo and AWD out of this Subaru/Toyota project, it will probably be the cost of re-certifying the chassis with a different drivetrain, which has to go through the whole process again, at the expense of millions of dollars. Those millions have to be recouped, and if Subaru or Toyota don't think they have the buyers to overcome that, they won't do it.

 

If the costs were lower to certify variants of the same basic chassis, we would see more variation, and they would be less bound by market projections being high enough on an inexpensive, likely low-ish profit-margin car. A 20k Toyota sport coupe does not make as much profit per unit as a Corvette, GT-R, Porsche or Ferrari, which each command more of a premium price, and can clear the government hurdle with low production numbers.

[CTlegacy06]

Well you ask for a Legacy STi, I think the reasoning SOA didn't bring it over is because they feared it would cannibalize not only sales of the WRX Sti but the image it has as the "uber-sports-model." Usually I think what will happen is that as the Sti gets replaced, that old powertrain is then a hand me down to the next gen Legacy's performance model.

[IwannaSportSedan]

There are ways that the Legacy STI / S402 can be marketed differently than the WRX STI.

 

and I don't think that offering the Legacy STI with the Impreza STI's hand-me-downs is the right thing.

 

Legacy is not subbordinate to Impreza, if anything it is the other way around, and Legacy can be marketed as such, as better equipped, and more grand-touring oriented than the more focused, less long-legged WRX STI, without diluting the WRX STI's market awareness, nor taking it's place on the rally stages.

 

But what will keep the Legacy STI out of the US, is government regulation expense making it too unlikely for them to make a profit on so few units sold, compared to other marques like Cadillac, BMW, and Audi. A turbo 4 means less and less the more expensive the car gets, and it's competition gets 6 and 8 cylinders with more torque.

 

So, the Legacy STI is between a rock and a hard place, too expensive and it will be seen as too ambitious for it's turbo-4 subaru roots, but too inexpensive, and it isn't worth the expense of bringing it to market.

 

The easy break point is to lower the expense of bringing variants to the US market, by government reform. That would make the car viable at a lower price, more attractive to Subaru fans, and more of a performance value leader, rather than an also ran above 40k$ against better equipped, and larger displacement cars.

[lkjohnson1950]

Well you ask for a Legacy STi, I think the reasoning SOA didn't bring it over is because they feared it would cannibalize not only sales of the WRX Sti but the image it has as the "uber-sports-model." Usually I think what will happen is that as the Sti gets replaced, that old powertrain is then a hand me down to the next gen Legacy's performance model.

 

I agree. I fail to see how bumping the HP and tricking the suspension for a LGT-STI would incur vast government certification expense. The engine is already in use in the USDM. The suspension is only slightly different than the Spec-B, and the body mods do not involve the basic structure. SOA managed to add the Spec-B mods without pricing it out of the market, the STI is a small step beyond. The turbo has more torque than the H-6, and until the latest round of redesigns by Lexus etc. was faster than all the other sixes. I still have a vivid memory of a dealer in WI telling me that they stocked only N/A Leggys because the good people of WI would not buy Turbos. This is the mentality of years of hearing that "Speed Kills" and anyone speeding is Street Racing or driving recklessly, when in fact limits are often artificially lowered for revenue, and the driver going 55 in the left lane creates more of a safety hazard than the driver going 85. And I'm tired of THAT!!!

[BrownBoy]

So...that Subaru sports car...it's gonna be interesting how they market the RWD factor within an "exclusively AWD" company (at least in the U.S.)

[franklin]

Here would be my proposal for the new Subaru / Toyota small sports car :

1st Id make several variations to satisfy various buyers. All would be 2 doors.

My weight goal would be 150 -200# than their other models. 3000-3100# tops.

One model AWD and turbo as in the LGT. ( 250 HP 250#) better performance due to lighter weight and lower center of gravity. Offer two manual gear boxes as an option A) a 6 speed -close ratio and a Mileage 6 speed manual with 5th and 6th both overdrive. One for the hard core and one for the guy that wants it all.

If possible offer a 5 or 6 speed automatic ( come on Toyota this is your part)

For the other models. As follows:

An AWD Non- Turbo ( same tranny options)

Lastly a RWD 2.5 Boxer ( In case I forgot all these would be 2.5 Boxer motors)

Turbo or Non Turbo.

The RWD Non turbo with 6 speed 2x OD ( Manual or Auto) would be the economical / sporty one. Low , light and good mileage.

I think they could develop a nice range of products off of this base.