Subaru, Toyota will build small sports car

[hutru01]

I thought this thread was about a possible cheap Toyota-Subie sportscar. Instead we have dueling tree-huggers. Jeez. Holy thread jack Batman.

 

+1, who gives a shit about a prius or a corolla, the is an LGT forum and we are discussing Subaru and Toyota collaborating on a car.

 

For performance, AND for the environment, KEEP IT LIGHT!!!! How about a Lotus Elise for half price (or less)? Get rid of every electric motor except for the starter. Crank windows, non power seats, etc. Target weight 2200 lbs.

 

Revive MR2 and stick an H4 behind the seats instead of the Toy S4 mill. Voila! A cheaper and lighter Boxster!

 

This car sounds like its going to be an AWD TC.

 

The TC was specifically targeted to younger drivers. They did that by offering a cheap price tag, and various aesthetic/engine/suspension mods through the dealership.

 

I really wonder whether it will have a turbo or not. (I doubt it with a price of 17K, but there might be upgraded packages)

[SLegacy99]

http://smiliesftw.com/x/emot-aaa.gif

[SLegacy99]

Back in November Toyota’s German Chief Markus Schrick confirmed Toyota was working on several new sports cars including a replacement for the Celica, and now Japanese magazines are claiming the new model will arrive as early as next year. The new car is said to be the joint-effort of a collaboration between Toyota and Subaru and it will reportedly be offered in two different variants, a cheaper GT model and a high-performance AWD GT-Four.

 

The two carmakers have been sharing production facilities and swapping engineers ever since Toyota bought a stake in Subaru early last year and these new sports cars are likely to be the first to be spawned from the partnership. The cheaper GT version is supposed to have a target price of under $20,000, Japan’s Best Car reports, which agree with earlier reports claiming Toyota was working on an affordable successor to the 1980’s AE86. The GT will feature a conventional front-engine RWD layout and will be powered by a naturally aspirated 2.0L Subaru four-cylinder boxer engine.

 

The more expensive GT-Four, meanwhile, will come with AWD as standard and get the same 300hp turbo four as the Japanese spec Subaru Impreza STI. According to the source, the engine in this car will be positioned closer to the firewall to help improve handling and it could also feature in-wheel electric motors to help traction.

 

Both cars will come in coupe and three-door hatch bodystyles and will be sourced from Subaru’s Gunma plant in Japan. No five-door hatch will be offered as Toyota and Subaru don’t want to compete with the current Impreza range. http://www.motorauthority.com/news/c...ade-by-subaru/

[oddseth]

Interesting - might this spawn a movement in the whole Subaru lineup to place the engine further back in the car to improve weight balance? This is similar to what Audi did with their current gen A5/A4 platform by relocating the front differential in between the engine and transmission to push the front axle further forward. I would love to see this carry over to the impreza and legacy platforms to help improve our nose-heavy balance.

[CTlegacy06]

I sense that if Toyota and Subaru do well with this model and Toyota continues to surpass GM and the world then a merger/alliance is a high probability! Subaru can be Toyota's "boxer/AWD" sedan/wagon line while Toyota deals with econoboxes,fwd sedans,suvs,vans,hybrids. Lexus will be the luxury and Scion the econo/sporty. I see Subaru fitting in very well into Toyota/Lexus/Scion since they do not compete directly with eachother on anything (at least in America). I believe Scion sells just as many units as Subaru, Lexus more and Toyota being the majority of that corporation. Anyone agree? I also think that if Subaru is left the way it is (same line up) there will be little to no cannibalizing between them and Subaru can maintain its different pathforms/engines.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Autoblog link

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/02/toyota-celica-illustration_.jpg

 

Autoblog is reporting this, as well. I'll re-paste my autoblog comments here, because they sum up my position pretty well.

 

This is going to go one of two ways.

 

1: It is going to be a toyota, with a bit of subaru...

NO GO. A bland car with a subaru drivetrain is a let down.

 

2: It is going to be a Subaru with a toyota nameplate on it, like the 93 Probe GT was a Mazda with a ford badge.

 

In the second case... 300+ turbocharged horsepower, AWD, and Impreza's blend of Legacy-style front suspension, and tribeca/forester 5-link rear suspension...

 

And AWD would not require electric drive, if, like previous rumors have said, they are using a modified Legacy/Impreza chassis to do this. Subaru AWD is right there for use. And with STI's DCCD, you can have BOTH AWD and RWD, at the flick of a switch.

 

I have been CLAMORING for a fastback hatch Subaru sport coupe. If this car IS that car, with a "T" on it, rather than the pleiades oval... I'll still buy it.

 

I probably would have bought a WRX with a SAAB badge on it, too, if I were looking for an impreza turbo wagon, the SAAB 9'2X Aero looked better at it.

 

And you had better believe that it is getting ordered with World Rally Blue Pearl paint, and getting subaru badges the first day it's in my garage. Toyota, my rear diff. This car is a SUBARU!

 

I just hope Toyota doesn't make it fugly, like the new Camry, Corrola, and Matrix all are. The last Celica was decent, but the celicas before that were not. The MR2 Spyder didn't look nearly as slick as the 2nd Gen junior ferrari.

 

Now THERE is an idea for a RWD subaru powered Toyota. A resurrection of the mid-engined ferrari-junior-style MR2 Turbo, with mid-engined STI turbo boxer power from Subaru, and half the price of the Cayman S, and more powerful.

 

Hell, If I could do the work, I'd buy a used MR2 coupe and do that engine swap, if it would fit.

 

Anyway, back on topic.

If Toyota miraculously does this right, I will buy one, and re-badge it back to it's Subaru roots. If they do it wrong, it will be yet another FAIL for Toyota, and Subaru. Subaru should have enough sense to sell an Impreza coupe anyway.

 

-IWSS aka mk

[SC GT]

If this car is even modestly good looking, it is going to kill the STi. I mean, a good looking STi in coupe form with Toyota build quality?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Subaru build quality is at least as good as Toyota's, just not as widely touted by camry buyers.

 

The fact that you can (will be able to) get Subaru turbo power and AWD in a sleek looking car (IF toyota does it right) is what will kill WRX and maybe STI.

 

STI engine power, DCCD/VDC 6MT (swapped in if not factory available), Brembo brakes, Bilstein struts, and a fastback-hatch coupe...

 

Sounds like fun to me.

[Guest]

It's not about Subaru build quality, it's about Toyota customer service.

[Jerboa113]

performance car or not, its a sad day when toyota steals subaru's ideas and products and for a word short of it, ruins them..

 

I got a close up look at the new STI this weekend.. subaru has betrayed its people..we need a pit of death so we can kick the people responsible for ruining this stuff into it. I dont know what to buy next time around.. but it wont be a toybaru.. or a suyota.

 

Can you tell I have no appreciation or respect for toyota? Its because they make crap like the camry and dont even TRY to make it at all a worthwhile vehicle, then market it like it is worthwhile.. then they have the audacity to use the scion as their "sporty" car with under 200hp.. unless its a motorcycle under 200hp is just not what I would consider sporty. What I see is another sub-par company that makes sub-par vehicles just another boring brown bag sedan company trying to muscle in and take over quite possibly the only remaining light of quality left in the auto industry.... but I suppose its too late now.. its been crushed by Tetsuo's disgusting mutated fat. (akira reference if you missed it)

 

please note I did not read any posts in this thread except the opener lol.

 

Flame me if you wish, but you have to admit a migration away from subaru's uniqueness into Toyota's brown bag industry of overpriced under efficient under performanced boring-mobiles is not a good thing for those of us who love our cars because they are unique and actually measure up to what we expect from them.

[SLegacy99]

Toyota paint quality is awesome.

[SLegacy99]

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4230

[lawl]

dont know why you guys dislike toyotas

 

i was given (i know im lucky) a 7th gen celica in high school and it was an awesome car. handled well, reliable, good looking.

 

if i had gotten the right trim with the right transmission, i'd probably still be driving it today. (i got the auto GT instead of the 6spd gt-s)

 

but i digress.

 

celicas are great. the 7th gen was the best performer in the bunch until the rsx type S came out. even then it was pretty even. the GT has many wins in autoX so it's capable.

 

subaru internals. toyota service, quality, support. RWD is gonna be awesome as well.

 

this could be worth saving up for.

 

unless the rumors are wrong and they find a way to muck everything up.

[chenc544]

performance car or not, its a sad day when toyota steals subaru's ideas and products and for a word short of it, ruins them..

 

I got a close up look at the new STI this weekend.. subaru has betrayed its people..we need a pit of death so we can kick the people responsible for ruining this stuff into it. I dont know what to buy next time around.. but it wont be a toybaru.. or a suyota.

 

Can you tell I have no appreciation or respect for toyota? Its because they make crap like the camry and dont even TRY to make it at all a worthwhile vehicle, then market it like it is worthwhile.. then they have the audacity to use the scion as their "sporty" car with under 200hp.. unless its a motorcycle under 200hp is just not what I would consider sporty. What I see is another sub-par company that makes sub-par vehicles just another boring brown bag sedan company trying to muscle in and take over quite possibly the only remaining light of quality left in the auto industry.... but I suppose its too late now.. its been crushed by Tetsuo's disgusting mutated fat. (akira reference if you missed it)

 

please note I did not read any posts in this thread except the opener lol.

 

Flame me if you wish, but you have to admit a migration away from subaru's uniqueness into Toyota's brown bag industry of overpriced under efficient under performanced boring-mobiles is not a good thing for those of us who love our cars because they are unique and actually measure up to what we expect from them.

 

I have no allegiance to Subaru, Toyota or any car maker for that matter. Therefore I can careless about what Toyota is doing to Subaru or vise versa. If this collaboration turn into something interesting then I will consider it for my next car. If it's not then I will look else where. It's really that simple. Personally I respect what Toyota is doing, I don't care for any of their products but they obviously know how to sell cars. We, the enthusiasts, might not care for their cars but then again we are not their targeted consumers. Toyota has recognize that they have a hole in their lineup and is actively trying to fill that void. I'm not going to knock them for trying. If the end result sucks then so be it, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. On the other hand if they put out something that fits my needs then I couldn't be happier to have another choice for my next car.

[SLegacy99]

I think Im more surprised that this thing is supposedly to have the power of the STi and yet the Legacy does not.

[IwannaSportSedan]

This rumor keeps coming up...

 

It was on Autoblog back in September 2007

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/26/toyota-subaru-sports-car-details-emerge-answers-big-questions/

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/09/toy_subie_op_450.jpg

 

And before that, in August 2007:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/01/rumoured-new-ae86-more-details/

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/07/ae86cover.jpg

 

Mentioning Subaru chassis development and RWD hardware both times, although rumoring I4 1.5 liter 2NZ-FE toyota engine before, and mentioning subaru boxer engines, before, and again, everything from the econo-motor EL15x, an now mentioning the EJ20x japanese series boxers, turbo and non-turbo.

 

Theoretically, a US version would have EJ25x series 2.5 liter motors from the WRX/Forester, Legacy, or STI.

 

And if they build this car and DON'T import it, Toyota is going to get an ear-full like none other. They even admit their US lineup is devoid of "fun-to-drive" cars, so it doesn't make sense not to import or build a version in the US.

 

I want to see a near-final design. Autoblog has some of these on their AE86-revival gallery... Most photos from Best Car Magazine, as well as a lot of the information being provided from the same source.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/07/ae86_bc_03.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/07/ae86_bc_02.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/07/ae86_bc_01.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/02/toyota-celica-illustration_.jpg

 

Personally, The red one looks too much like a toyota-fied previous-gen Honda Civic coupe

The dark Gray one with the AE86 looks good, but the front end has a completely vacant stare.

The yellow one is the most promising.

 

An aftermarket, cleaner-design front bumper cover, a mesh grille with a Subie oval, and 2.5RS Turbo and STI badging would look much better, especially with the car painted WR Blue.

 

Throw in a blacked-out roof look, with the Scion TC's double section glass roof, and the last Celica's/AE86's fastback hatchback, and fold down rear seats... and WRX STI hardware throughout the chassis, like DCCD/VDC/6MT transmission integrated with SI-drive, Torsen rear LSD, Bilsteins, Brembos, forged BBS, and Recaros.

 

Color me *sold.*

[CTlegacy06]

I really like that red concept. Looks like a Honda Civic Coupe Front/Side and a Celica Rear. I don't like the black bumper because it will never make it too production (remember the R35 GTR had a black mask that never made it to production) so it would be nicer to see the red concept not riced up.

 

The Gray concept is very similar but I don't like that more rounded front end at all.

[chenc544]

I'd hate to see Subaru forced into putting a boxer into a car and releasing it first as a Toyota.

 

Toyota would benifit more, IMO, from strengthening the Subaru brand by... ah screw it.. it'll never happen

 

I don't know about Subaru been "forced" into it, personally I think it's a good thing for Subaru. Fuji/Subaru obviously doesn't think there is a business case for a coupe/fastback in their lineup. We have to remember that by comparison Subaru is a very small car company and they can't afford to take too many risks. So why not get Toyota to foot the bill for developing and market a coupe based on Subaru mechanisms. Toyota will also pay Subaru to build them in their factories. Basically Subaru shoulders no risk and stands to make some money. And if all goes well then maybe Subaru will rethink it's business case to market a coupe. So what if the first one off the line will have a Toyota badge. Back in the '90's there were plenty of sales to go around for all the DSM variants, no reason why there couldn't be a Toyota version and a Subaru version with a little different personality.

[Jerboa113]

Well, after much disappointment in the auto industry I was very excited when I found a quality vehicle for a price that was reasonable. So I have been very satisfied with my car.

 

I see this turning out bad. Toyota starts putting Subaru motors in their cars, before long Subaru is like Sega.. where you see their "character" so to speak, the symmetrical AWD or boxer turbo motors in Toyota cars and the Subaru make itself is no more. Toyota is a big company abosrbing Subaru, a small one. They want their products and are testing the waters by muscling their way in and stealing their designs. This is the beginning of the end of subaru.

 

Why do you think theres always only a few big auto makers? Anyone with anything original is either bought out or shut down.

 

Maybe this is a bit of an armagedon (sp) perspective but after looking at the sti this weekend and test driving the 08 LGT and 3.0R I am embarassed with this new direction.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Maybe they'll pull a Matrix/Vibe arrangement, and co-opt the car with Subaru.

 

by jove I hope it isn't as ugly as the matrix, though. I won't buy a car that turns my stomach that badly.

 

But a joint venture, re-badge subaru and toyota car. That would be good.

 

But I have a feeling that FHI/SOJ is still feeling quite gun-shy about a coupe, after the 2.5RS and SVX failed to set sales records despite their good qualities.

 

And Toyota wants to expand it's image and placate all those who say, including me, that they are a stick-in-the-mud appliance maker that can't seem to build a good, affordable performace coupe. AND they want to compete with Nissan's Z, and possible SX upcoming products, and Hyundai's Genesis coupe.

 

So Toyota WANTs a coupe, they have plenty of money and marketshare, and Subaru has the equipment, but is shy to put their neck on the block, when they don't have much room to lose.

[Guest]

I hate Toyota cars, especially USDM models (all appliances, zero soul, and honestly, Lexus is not much better, well perhaps IS is....

 

Anyway, a thought - do you think they could design a chassis that would would take a Toyota sourced I-4 longitudaly mounted (RWD) as well as a Subaru boxer (AWD)? I think with the engine bay sufficiently long that should not be a big deal.

 

I kinda dislike the idea of the boxer being badged with Toyota.

[franklin]

An STI driveline in a car thats not world class ugly. Id be interested.

[SLegacy99]

I hate Toyota cars, especially USDM models (all appliances, zero soul, and honestly, Lexus is not much better, well perhaps IS is....

 

Really?

 

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=qvAc79o9XX4]YouTube - Etiquette[/ame]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im surprised that they are going with the Subaru 2.0L after all of the speculative reports said that they wanted the 1.5L. I don't blame em for wanting more power. It was rumored that Toyota was talking about developing a 2.0L for an IS hybrid, which would probably also go in the Corolla. Perhaps they will just use Subarus. Doesn't seem likely, but wouldn't that be something?

[CTATV]

something to compete with that saturn/pontiac cheap coupe?

[IwannaSportSedan]

I hate Toyota cars, especially USDM models (all appliances, zero soul, and honestly, Lexus is not much better, well perhaps IS is....

 

Anyway, a thought - do you think they could design a chassis that would would take a Toyota sourced I-4 longitudaly mounted (RWD) as well as a Subaru boxer (AWD)? I think with the engine bay sufficiently long that should not be a big deal.

 

I kinda dislike the idea of the boxer being badged with Toyota.

 

I would much rather an AWD Turbo Boxer coupe be branded as a 2.5RS Turbo. That would make much more sense to me, as well. But at this point' I'd take what I could get.

 

As for the multiple engine/driveline thing might work. AWD vs RWD being the key.

 

An I4/RWD would have a shorter transmission, sans two differentials and front half-shaft placement concerns.

 

If the tail shaft/driveshaft coupling joint is at the same stationary point, that moves the engine back toward the firewall, and an engine four cylinders long might still fit behind the radiator.

 

In a Legacy chassis, that is possible, with a higher hood height. Keep in mind that it is also the same chassis that fits the Outback/Legacy 3.0R H6, which is a bit more than three cylinders long (for cylinder offset from side to side).

 

With a bit more clearance from the engine moving rearward, an I4 longitudinal placement might just be possible. Maybe some firewall re-shaping for clearance at the back of the engine.

 

But I doubt it would work with AWD. You would have to stick with the shorter length boxer blocks, with room behind for the front diff, and half shaft angles.