redrobin Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Hi All, Seems to me that we have those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to have a STi Liberty GT (or Liberty GT tuned by STi) on order who are very enthusiastic about this car, and those who don't want to or aren't in a position to order one who take every opportunity to bag out both us & the car. The fact is that Subaru Australia have stated officialy that they have worked closely with STi Japan on this car and to say that the relationship is one of "customer / supplier at best" is flying somewhat in the face of reality. Even the local motoring press (Wheels, Motor) have acknowledged in past articles that there is a close relationship between Sti Japan and it's Australian counterpart. I can't see STi Japan or Australia being willing to allow their name to be put to a car they didn't have at least some input into other than being a parts supplier. To argue that SA, STi Australia or Japan (or any other company for that matter) would do anything for a profit is a common argument from people who have never been involved in establishing their own business identity. Those who have, readily understand that the one thing you never, ever do is to water down your reputation, once established, by allowing your name to be put to something not of your creation or is but a capitalisation of your good name on a similar and somewhat related, but inferior, product. That would be akin to HSV allowing Holden to market a V8 Commodore as a HSV that had never been to HSV but that had been the receipient of a few HSV parts thrown at it. It just won't happen. The Liberty GT STi (or whatever you wish to call it) isn't going to be a supercar, but it is going to be great car never the less and will have some significant local input from STi Australia other than as a mere parts supplier. Sti has a strong local support base with the WRX STi and even if you don't like Subarus you still know what a WRX STi is. STi Australia will be guarding that reputation and will not let SA release a car under the STi name that can't at least hold it's own against the opposition manufacturers, who would just love to knock STi around a little. You can bet one yardstick of this car will be that it must be capable of besting new the Mazda MPS, and I wouldn't be suprised to learn that there is one at Docklands for comparative testing. Yes, for those of you who are wondering, I do have a Liberty GT (tuned by STi) on order and I for one can't wait to get hold of mine. Roll on January Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 "roll on January" On that bit we should all agree!!!! :D Can't wait for mine. Just hoping that SA might do the right thing and spring it as an early Xmas present for us. Fat chance but a nice idea..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus_STi_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 I heard that apparently there is a test in the Jan issue of Motor magazine that puts Liberty GT vs Mazda MPS, with an XR Falcon thrown in there for the hell of it. (not sure if turbo XR or not). Should be interesting...... Personally, I would expect the standard GT to beat the MPS, never mind the STI version! And Daryll, I think all Mo was saying was that they do tend to "talk up" the whole "Australian Conditions" thing somewhat. Which is to be expected from a manufacturer, no matter who they are. Aust. is such a small market it is unlikely they would ever make anything "especially" for us. More likely is that they are running out these cars before the '07 models come in, and throwing in some parts to make the deal somewhat sweeter and to help on resale. And yes, I have one on order, and yes, roll on January! Cheers, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Rick gets my point, thank you. I was not baging the GT with STi bits - like i've said in pasty posts, its a great car but you are paying extra for it. RE the STI parts etc, name one part that was developed for Australia that is currently on the market that is different from any other country and i will withdraw my statements with an appology. I have bought many STi parts over the years for my WRX, my GT and other friends' cars, some of these parts have been fitted to Aust spec cars later on - for example - I have the strut brace, bilsteins, have purchased the mufflers, boot spoiler and springs for friends - all these were "for Japanese domestic use only" parts, you are welcome to show me how these are different to whats going to be on the Aust spec GT STi... Yes, the mags and SA do tend to talk up the development of the cars - ask them what was specifically done and they'll tell you they made the car comply to ADR, tuned it for our fuel and that'll be it. Bye, Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 But the new tuned by STi GT gets the alloy lower arms and Bilsteins Heh heh.... Hey Darren, Bilsteins I know, but haven't seen any documentation on the car having alloy lower control arms... Bye, Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Those who have, readily understand that the one thing you never, ever do is to water down your reputation, once established, by allowing your name to be put to something not of your creation or is but a capitalisation of your good name on a similar and somewhat related, but inferior, product. Perhaps you'd like to explain why the Aust GT misses out on the alloy control arms and bilsteins ? Or explain why the Aust GT with STI bits misses out on the Brembos and braided lines ? After all, if they didn't want to "water down" their reputation, they wouldn't offer a watered down car for a market with which they have "close relationship" with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hi Mo, I had thought this was the right item: STI rear suspension lateral links with pilot ball joints But I may be wrong...... no doubt you will point it out I reckon we should close this thread... waaaaaay too much angst over whether or not the STi is worth the premium. Obviously plenty of people were happy with the standard GT and others will pay the premium. just my $0.02 worth..... Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobin Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hi All, Please read my reply carefully, I didn't actually comment on any parts being Australian developed or Australian spec only and my reply wasn't relating to that part of the thread. What I said was that it was unlikely for STi to allow SA to release this car without STi having done more than just supply the parts. The parts probably are just JDM parts, that wasn't the point. The point was that STi will have had some input, other than just parts supply, with the cars, not just thrown the parts at SA and then said ......oh and it's OK to use an STi badge on the cars. From what I have heard, this is indeed a sweetener to help sell the last remaining non Euro III compliance cars before the new model later on in the year, but thats not the point either. As to watering down the product, the US spec GTO's are different to the Australian HSV Monaros but that doesn't mean that the Monaro is watered down because the Monaro and the GTO are different animals in different markets, even if they share the same body shell and mechanicals and are built in the same factory. The Liberty STi may be better spec'd in Japan than our Liberty by STi etc.. is here, but our Liberty by Sti is better spec'd than our standard Liberty GT and therefore not watered down, just different. It isn't meant to be a Liberty STi or they would have called it that. It's called officialy a Liberty GT tuned by STi and is somewhat better spec'd than a standard Liberty GT and has most probably been looked at, even if only briefly, by STi Australia and they must be happy with it or we would have heard about the infight that would be raging if they weren't. If used this logic, we would have to say that the current 2.5ltr WRX STi is watered down, because the JDM model can use 100 Octane. Or local cars are detuned slightly to use the 98 Octane we get. Do you see my point ?? I wouldn't say the WRX STi was watered down, because it isn't. Is it modified for Australian conditions... Yes, because Australian conditions are 98 Octane and bad roads. The suspension components may be the same but are the bushings ? I don't know and I'm not suggesting that they are different, but they may well be, as plenty of manufacturers change their suspension bushings for goat tracks we call Australian roads. Quote " waaaaaay too much angst over whether or not the STi is worth the premium. Obviously plenty of people were happy with the standard GT and others will pay the premium." I agree that there is a bit of angst but it's not really over the price or percieved value, it's more over the comments relating to the car and my comments still stand that we are developing two distinct points of view. One is that this is a great supercar and the other is that it's a watered down shadow of the JDM version. Neither of which is true. There have been plenty of people on this thread talking up the cars, not just SA, and this isn't helping to maintain balance any more than saying they are watered down is. I think you misread or miss-interpreted my comments. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Darryl, Funnily enough I agree with all of what you say. At the end of the day, the car is going to be a little bit more special than a standard GT but not an M3 nor a 911 Turbo nor an Enzo beater.... For me, the standard GT wasn't a step up from my B4 nor a better choice than an MPS (in fact, I was going to buy an MPS until this car appeared). What is important to me is that the extra herbs and toys it comes with are worth the premium to me. I'm happily going to pay it and know that I could have got the same benefits for less by DIY changes but c'est la vie. I know I'm not going to race Enzos but I am going to enjoy the new car! Darren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hi Mo, I had thought this was the right item: STI rear suspension lateral links with pilot ball joints But I may be wrong...... no doubt you will point it out Ah, thats not what i was talking about, the Lower control arms are the suspenshion arms up the front, the JDM GT and Tuned by STI GT get alloy ones, we get steel ones... The pillow (not pilot ball as SA have stated) ball lat liks are a great improvemnet over std. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobin Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Thanks for that Darren, I think you got where I was comming from. I was also looking at the Mazda MPS at the motor show and wondering ........ Hmmm Funnily enough my local Subaru dealer is also the local Mazda dealer here, could be interesting to be a salesman for them at this point. The sales staff seem to not be brand specific and will sell you either a Mazda or a Subaru, whichever you like. Good place to conduct your own comparrison I guess though. I guess the biggest point about the MPS is the 6 speed box. Is it going to leave the 5 speed Liberty GT at a disadvantage due to ratio spread ? If I were Mazda, I would have used the Liberty GT as a yardstick the same as I would have used the Mazda if I was Subaru. I actually suspect that the Mazda will give the normal GT a real run for it's money. The Liberty by STi is another matter, I'm thinking that the STi will hold off the Mazda reasonably well. The test in next months Motor will be interesting, there could be a rash of cancelled orders of one flavour or another depending on the outcome of that one. The inclusion of the XR6 Turbo is a red herring, or at least, should be. Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Darryl, For me, the standard GT wasn't a step up from my B4 nor a better choice than an MPS (in fact, I was going to buy an MPS until this car appeared). What is important to me is that the extra herbs and toys it comes with are worth the premium to me. I'm happily going to pay it and know that I could have got the same benefits for less by DIY changes but c'est la vie. Hey Darren, u seem to understand some of my points too, i agree with your above comment. What i do have a problem is with pple blowing smoke up where the sun don't shine about things that are not true... Darryl, I do see your point, my comments were in reply to agctr's claims. I still maintain that we get watered down JDM versions tho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Watered down only because we dont have Japanese Fuel RON Levels. Hence the ECU's are tuned for "Australian Conditions". Hence STi Japan and STi Australia worked closely on this project to ensure we got the maximum value/pwr out of the JDM 2.0L engines from Japan. Im sure Greg & Vin @ STi could pump a lot more power out of the engine if they wanted, but have detuned it slightly to allow for all conditions and longivity of the engine. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hey guys, good to feel the lurve back in the forum LOL I only have a 30-45 min drive in each car, but for me the MPS was a clear winner over the standard Liberty GT. The past 12 months I have been looking to replace the B4 and the GT didn't inspire me handling wise and the spec-B didn't have the turbo rush I wanted (after three consecutive turbo cars the GT STi will be my fourth). When I heard about the MPS I decided to wait and see... In the past fortnight I drove both the MPS and manual GT again and if the STi GT wasn't out there I'd probably be driving an MPS today. I think it was a very impressive car and I'd expect Wheels to award the win to the MPS. And probably Motor too but I didn't take either to silly extremes - but brace yourselves for a Mazda win of that comparo (XR6Turbo? WTF...) Only some truly excellent and customer focussed service from the STi boys at Docklands got me into my third Subaru. I doubt the Motor comparo will be of the GT by STi but I'd bet Mo's left knacker it would win that comparo by a mile if it was... Cheers guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Watered down only because we dont have Japanese Fuel RON Levels. Hence the ECU's are tuned for "Australian Conditions". Hence STi Japan and STi Australia worked closely on this project to ensure we got the maximum value/pwr out of the JDM 2.0L engines from Japan. Im sure Greg & Vin @ STi could pump a lot more power out of the engine if they wanted, but have detuned it slightly to allow for all conditions and longivity of the engine. Ada///M. Whats leaving out suspension bits got to do with fuel ? And on the fuel note, how come all the Jap imports run perfectly with 98RON without need for a retune ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo_GT Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Hey guys, good to feel the lurve back in the forum LOL I only have a 30-45 min drive in each car, but for me the MPS was a clear winner over the standard Liberty GT. The past 12 months I have been looking to replace the B4 and the GT didn't inspire me handling wise and the spec-B didn't have the turbo rush I wanted (after three consecutive turbo cars the GT STi will be my fourth). When I heard about the MPS I decided to wait and see... In the past fortnight I drove both the MPS and manual GT again and if the STi GT wasn't out there I'd probably be driving an MPS today. I think it was a very impressive car and I'd expect Wheels to award the win to the MPS. And probably Motor too but I didn't take either to silly extremes - but brace yourselves for a Mazda win of that comparo (XR6Turbo? WTF...) Only some truly excellent and customer focussed service from the STi boys at Docklands got me into my third Subaru. I doubt the Motor comparo will be of the GT by STi but I'd bet Mo's left knacker it would win that comparo by a mile if it was... Cheers guys... Hey! stop talking abt my knackers , but seriously, I can see the GT STi handle a lot better than the std GT (the std GT tends to get floaty around 130 -150 kmph - when i put in the Bilsteins and Tein springs the ride was a lot better), but with performance, how much more power and torque are we talking about? Is it going to be 200Kw and 343NM as stated previously? Does anyone have a dyno plot? Bye, Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Lots of (totally unsubstantiated) rumours floating around that the final power reading is in the 206-210kW range. Until someone gets it on a dyno though - it's all just that - TOTALLY unsubstantiated rumour... I'm struggling to reconcile the quoted torque number. My maths on rpm/hp/torque is too rusty but to get the power up from 190 to say 200kw (206kw) is a 5% (8%) rise. I can't reconcile only getting a 343/330 = 4% rise in torque at the same time. I thought (and it's late!) that usually torque responds more to tuning than power does - i.e. the 343 Nm looks too small... Anyway, on this one I'm happy to agree it is totally unsubstantiated until such time as they publish the final numbers? Assuming they do that of course... Interesting that the MPS has a very flat 380 Nm torque curve and boy does it feel like it when you drive it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 My mistake Mo, I personally took yr watered down comments to be engine related and nothing else. My personal agruement re the suspension and especailly the brake package is, if we paid X for the LibertySTi which is a few grand more than the WRXSTi, why didnt they just throw the BREMBO package in anyways, this has me a little miffed to say the least. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Adam, I suspect the brake package issue is down to cost at the end of the day. Seems that most people think the Brembos would add another $3-$5k to the price - funnily enough that's enough to get you from $60 something to over $70k and that's a bit of a ceiling for Subaru I'd guess... Given the wheels and suspension mods are fitted here in Oz, you'd have to bear the full cost of the Brembos on top - so the $4k number bandied around would be added on to the cost. No real idea, just that's how I'd rationalise it. I suspect people in SA figure they can sell a high 60s car but over 70 is now starting to edge into BMW/Audi territory? Personally I think the GT will be the best thing this side of an M3 in a mid size but that's just my blind hope for the car! What I am really looking forward to is 3 years time when hopefully the established EVO/WRX STi products and the history of the MPS / GT will be driving more and better cars from Subaru etc. Look at how much the STi WRX has improved because of the competition with Mitsubishi - still the same price (effectively) but each year buyers get better and more bits. Lucky us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Yes that is true 70K would be a big ask although if they had a few options boxes that you could tick, well atleast they would be on offer and then it would be up to the buyer to see if their funds could reach that far. This is a little offtopic but have u ever checked out the options list for the M3, M3CSL, 7Series, S-Class and Porsche to name a few, they are massive. Now STi Australia or STi Japan for that matter doesnt really have the depth to offer the sorts of packages that the companies above can but gish, it would be nice. For example, I know a few guys here that would be ticking the Sunroof box................. At the end of the day the cost may far outweigh the total benefit of the tickbox options, I think we all atleast agree to that. Competition always will help to up the game so to speak. Subaru looks at Honda as a main competitor Im sure as a lot of the designs etc are ala Honda. With Mazda now having Subaru firm in its sights, I agree, it can only be good news for us, the buyer. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 LOL Adam - I hate to think about the options lists on Euro cars. When Jag released the X-type I briefly toyed with the idea (until it became clear it was in no way going to fix my desire to own an E-type)!. Without being too stupid, I was able to add $25k on top of a $70k car no sweat at all. I think last month's Motor had a comparo where the Porsche's brake options (ceramic) cost more than the Suzuki GS??? that beat it around the track anyway. I'd love to be able to afford all the BMW/M-Sport/Porsche options but not sure I'd ever tick them! Mind you, I would give Mo's other knacker to own an M3....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 I am so seethingly jealous that you Aussies are having an exclusive conversation about the Legacy STIs you are getting. Screw all of YOU! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agctr Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 Feelin the love The B4, feeling the love...... Darren, if you think the E46 ///M3 is hardcore, just wait for the E90 ///M to come online, that will certainly ROCK. Ada///M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmcgowan Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 Hey The B4 - join in... Just think in two months, you'll be hearing about us driving it - not waiting for it!!!!! M cars are defo hard core. Although a near neighbour has the bird shit yellow* colour with cream leather interior - he's clearly cashed up but has zero taste!!!!! * I think BMW call it Phoenix Gold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 I am so seethingly jealous that you Aussies are having an exclusive conversation about the Legacy STIs you are getting. Screw all of YOU! why? Build your own man! Nothing on their cars that you can't source from AVO or on Rinkya (except maybe the ECU, but that's for a 2.0L anyways....we get a bigger motor ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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