hkshooter Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 ^ When you say positive toe are you really referring to camber? Or actual toe in on the front of the wheels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 ^ When you say positive toe are you really referring to camber? Or actual toe in on the front of the wheels? Toe like the pic below. As the suspension compresses it can go from zero toe to toe out. Toe in is what we want in the rear suspension. Camber is often blamed for tire wear and other bad traits, toe is what really effects things. You can have -2 camber and the tires will wear great if the toe is zero. http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s201/n2oiroc/B7ED23B5-41A0-4264-AB2C-1A8A210A69CF_zpsxfta4pb3.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkshooter Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 ^ Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 well my wrx has -1.7 camber in the rear and it tracks great. rear camber isnt adjustable without spending $200 on lower arms anyways. Good info about your ’16 WRX rear camber, thanks. I forgot about the rear camber having no easy adjustment , looks like it stays at RL -1.64º & RR -1.75º which isn’t too far from the -1.7º rear camber of your WRX, it would be nice if they were equal though. I think the wandering is slightly worse on our Liberty with a load but I’m not 100% certain (back to back tests on the same bit of road on the same day I haven’t tried). It will be interesting what you find on the wheel aligner. I’m not sure how I’ll go with the rear toe. The SM states for rear toe; “When the left and right wheels are adjusted for toe-in at the same time, the movement of one scale graduation changes toe-in by approx. 6.0 mm (0.24 in)”. To me that seems to be a very coarse adjustment. My rear toe is only +0.72mm toe-in per wheel which isn’t a lot. Initial adjusting to 0º shouldn’t be too hard but the lock nut needs to be torqued to 88.5 ft/lb while holding the adjusting bolt with a spanner to prevent it from turning. Could take a few goes to get it right. I notice there are a few warnings about having to perform the VDC sensor midpoint setting mode of the VDC when wheel alignment has been adjusted. Although it doesn’t say, my guess is it would only be important if unequal adjustments were made per side or thrust angle changes made. It would have to be done by a dealer anyway unless you have access to a Subaru select monitor. A crazy thought, I’m wondering if the wandering we are experiencing is a very slight dry road version of ghostwalking experienced by some Outbacks & some SJ Foresters. Reported ghostwalking appears to be the rear end moving from side to side on certain slippery ice/snow conditions at a certain speed. The fix for that was to change the rear toe from toe-in to 0º toe or a slight toe-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Good info about your ’16 WRX rear camber, thanks. I forgot about the rear camber having no easy adjustment , looks like it stays at RL -1.64º & RR -1.75º which isn’t too far from the -1.7º rear camber of your WRX, it would be nice if they were equal though. I think the wandering is slightly worse on our Liberty with a load but I’m not 100% certain (back to back tests on the same bit of road on the same day I haven’t tried). It will be interesting what you find on the wheel aligner. I’m not sure how I’ll go with the rear toe. The SM states for rear toe; “When the left and right wheels are adjusted for toe-in at the same time, the movement of one scale graduation changes toe-in by approx. 6.0 mm (0.24 in)”. To me that seems to be a very coarse adjustment. My rear toe is only +0.72mm toe-in per wheel which isn’t a lot. Initial adjusting to 0º shouldn’t be too hard but the lock nut needs to be torqued to 88.5 ft/lb while holding the adjusting bolt with a spanner to prevent it from turning. Could take a few goes to get it right. I notice there are a few warnings about having to perform the VDC sensor midpoint setting mode of the VDC when wheel alignment has been adjusted. Although it doesn’t say, my guess is it would only be important if unequal adjustments were made per side or thrust angle changes made. It would have to be done by a dealer anyway unless you have access to a Subaru select monitor. A crazy thought, I’m wondering if the wandering we are experiencing is a very slight dry road version of ghostwalking experienced by some Outbacks & some SJ Foresters. Reported ghostwalking appears to be the rear end moving from side to side on certain slippery ice/snow conditions at a certain speed. The fix for that was to change the rear toe from toe-in to 0º toe or a slight toe-out. The factory specs are generally focused on gas mileage and making sure it understeers at the limit. Zero toe is best for mileage and tire wear, but not handling. As far as the steering angle sensor/vdc recalibration, you only need to do it if something gets tweaked or the wheel is off more than 5 degrees from some bad adjustments. With how much higher outbacks sit, they might have different toe needs because the ride height difference affects suspension dramatically. Toe might stay neutral as it compresses or go toe in. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Assuming you don’t find anything drastically wrong with your alignment it sounds like you will be trying to get a bit more positive toe (toe-in) on the rear to try & prevent the wandering? This is what I’ve always aimed for on previous Subarus at the expense of tyre wear & fuel economy, but seeing I had a bit of equal rear toe-in I was going to try 0º rear toe to see if the wandering improved or got worse – a bit of trial & error. I’m happy with the way the car handles when cornering & braking, I just want to eliminate any wandering. A couple of your earlier posts had me confused, to me they conflict with one another unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying: ... the rear toe needs to be negative for sure on these as the rear suspension toes out as the suspension compresses. hit a good dip at high speed with zero or positive toe and you suddenly have a lot of positive toe and squirrley handling.As the suspension compresses it can go from zero toe to toe out. Toe in is what we want in the rear suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Assuming you don’t find anything drastically wrong with your alignment it sounds like you will be trying to get a bit more positive toe (toe-in) on the rear to try & prevent the wandering? This is what I’ve always aimed for on previous Subarus at the expense of tyre wear & fuel economy, but seeing I had a bit of equal rear toe-in I was going to try 0º rear toe to see if the wandering improved or got worse – a bit of trial & error. I’m happy with the way the car handles when cornering & braking, I just want to eliminate any wandering. A couple of your earlier posts had me confused, to me they conflict with one another unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying: My mistake, i mixed up positive and negative. Im aiming for toe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 That’s what I thought you meant, just wanted to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 new guy here, been lurking a while and wanted to finally chime in. im very mechanically inclined (i fix industrial machinery for a living and can fix nearly anything on cars) and have been a car nut since i was a kid. i also have a 2016 wrx and an 03 evo and i have a bit of road course experience so im not your average no nothing idiot. i have one of the wandering legacys. i have driven a couple 2015+ legacys when mine was in for warranty work. they did not wander as bad as mine. i have a 20mm rear sway bar and the stock goodyears were pulled off when i bought the car and it has 225/50R18 pilot super sports on it in summer and 225/55R17 conti si's for winter. even with the pilot super sports (great handling summer tire) it still wanders a lot. it honestly doesnt feel like its the steering rack. it feels like bad/soft bushings in the rear. i will be going to my friends alignment shop soon and seeing how the alignment looks and to see what he can do to get it to not handle like a fridge on rollerskates at 70+ mph. i have zero interest in the dealer aligning it. as others have pointed out, if its in the green they call it good. thats not correct. i dont feel the car is unsafe to drive, but something is off and i have never had a car that took so much random correction to keep in its lane. i can drive my wrx in a tornado with 1 finger on the wheel. Can i get an AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 The factory specs are generally focused on gas mileage and making sure it understeers at the limit. Zero toe is best for mileage and tire wear, but not handling. As far as the steering angle sensor/vdc recalibration, you only need to do it if something gets tweaked or the wheel is off more than 5 degrees from some bad adjustments. With how much higher outbacks sit, they might have different toe needs because the ride height difference affects suspension dramatically. Toe might stay neutral as it compresses or go toe in. Just a guess. Where do you get your info? Manufacturers do not set specs for fuel efficiency. I can set a car that is supposed to have zero camber to -2.5 degrees and it will drive straight down the road....how? If both sides are the same, it doesn't matter. However, that does not mean your tires will wear evenly. Toe is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Where do you get your info? Manufacturers do not set specs for fuel efficiency. I can set a car that is supposed to have zero camber to -2.5 degrees and it will drive straight down the road....how? If both sides are the same, it doesn't matter. However, that does not mean your tires will wear evenly. Toe is a different story. they set the specs for a variety of goals. safe handling with understeer at the limit is the main criteria and gas mileage is close behind. they dont bother to put low rolling resistance tires on then negate the gains with tire scrub. and i agree with you on camber, its not the demon people make it out to be. either way, im taking my buddy out to lunch tomorroe then we will toss my car on the alignment rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 back from the alignment and the car is much better, not perfect but steering corrections are down 75%. right rear toe was all messed up and there is an extra full degree camber on that corner which is an absurd amount for a car that has never been in an accident but its "in spec"ish. his machine didnt have the specs for 2015+ so ill have to call the dealer and see if its in or out and if they are willing to do anything. http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s201/n2oiroc/64165C23-9910-4A76-BEF2-A9DC45A64DB5_zpsij3anplp.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger73 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Good to see someone is doing something semi-scientific about the wandering. Tigger73's MY15 2.5i build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 i called the dealer about the camber, they insisted that the camber will be in spec if the toe is. i told him the toe is perfect and the camber is -1 degree higher on one side. he said the toe needs to be adjusted. after going back and forth a few times he insisted something is bent (nothing is bent) i just made an appt for them to throw it on their rack next week and point out the bent part when they replace the blown muffler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 ... his machine didnt have the specs for 2015+ so ill have to call the dealer and see if its in or out and if they are willing to do anything. I posted the specs for our cars previously (2015 USDM Legacy & Aus spec 2016 Liberty) here. I did that with my ‘as is’ figures so we had something to refer to & also to compare our ‘as is’ & ‘as left’ figures, seeing our cars have a similar wandering problem. Some of the specified range in your printout isn’t correct. I just did a couple of quick calcs on your ‘as left’ rear camber results (correct me if I miss-calculated any): Your right rear camber is within spec at -2.0º. The spec is -1º25’ (tolerance +/-0º45’) which is a camber range per wheel from -0º40’ to -2º10’. Or using only degrees the spec is -1.42º (tolerance +/-0.75º) which is a camber range per wheel from -0.66º to -2.16º. Your left rear camber is within spec at -1.1º, however your rear camber difference left to right is out of spec at 0.9º. The spec is 0º45’, or using only degrees 0.75º. Is there a reason why you didn’t go for a bit more positive rear toe? The spec is +3mm +/-3mm (+0.12” +/-0.12”). Apart from that it is good to see the wandering is 75% less. Good luck with the dealer, they should fix the rear camber. It will be interesting what they have to say when they check it. Was the adjustment on the rear toe adjustment bolt as coarse an adjustment as the SM indicates? So far I haven’t made any more changes but I did check my thrust angle which is almost perfect (I updated that to my previous post yesterday). Next stage is rear toe when I get some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I posted the specs for our cars previously (2015 USDM Legacy & Aus spec 2016 Liberty) here. I did that with my ‘as is’ figures so we had something to refer to & also to compare our ‘as is’ & ‘as left’ figures, seeing our cars have a similar wandering problem. Some of the specified range in your printout isn’t correct. I just did a couple of quick calcs on your ‘as left’ rear camber results (correct me if I miss-calculated any): Your right rear camber is within spec at -2.0º. The spec is -1º25’ (tolerance +/-0º45’) which is a camber range per wheel from -0º40’ to -2º10’. Or using only degrees the spec is -1.42º (tolerance +/-0.75º) which is a camber range per wheel from -0.66º to -2.16º. Your left rear camber is within spec at -1.1º, however your rear camber difference left to right is out of spec at 0.9º. The spec is 0º45’, or using only degrees 0.75º. Is there a reason why you didn’t go for a bit more positive rear toe? The spec is 3mm +/-3mm (0.12” +/-0.12”) which is a toe range per wheel from 0mm to +6mm (0.0” to +0.24”). Apart from that it is good to see the wandering is 75% less. Good luck with the dealer, they should fix the rear camber. It will be interesting what they have to say when they check it. Was the adjustment on the rear toe adjustment bolt as coarse an adjustment as the SM indicates? So far I haven’t made any more changes but I did check my thrust angle which is almost perfect (I updated that to my previous post yesterday). Next stage is rear toe when I get some time. thanks for the specs, i missed them even after searching. since his computer didnt have the 2015's, we put it as a 2014 with 18' wheels. he wanted to stay light on the toe in for minimal wear and because he thought the before settings were bad enough to cause it to drive like it does. the first thing he asked after seeing the inital #'s was "what did you hit?" i have owned the car since new and picked it up with 6 miles on it and im the only driver. it hasnt even hopped a curb. the rear toe can be adjusted as fine as you want. that spec must be for full turns, you can turn the adjusters 5 degrees if you want, it took quite a bit of turning to get the right rear where it ended up. im fully expecting the dealer to come up with "in spec" cross camber #'s so they dont have to deal with it as the advisor thought it was preposterous that it could be out of spec with the toe correct and no bent components. if thats the case, i have a pair of these leftover from my brz that ill install to fix it. i think any remaining lack of stability is from the cross camber. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYNO_WsRQiA]SubiSpeed - 2015 WRX and STI Lower Control Arm Install DIY - YouTube[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Bingo! 1 degree difference in camber is way too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 and btw, -0.8 camber is all the left front had. the right would go to -1. in case any of you were planning on tracking your car, you'll need some camber plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Bingo! 1 degree difference in camber is way too much. i was surprised to see it that far off. my brz and 2011 wrx were within a tenth and my 2016 wrx is within 3 tenths. im glad i found multiple issues, at least i know why it handled so funky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 ... the rear toe can be adjusted as fine as you want. that spec must be for full turns, you can turn the adjusters 5 degrees if you want, it took quite a bit of turning to get the right rear where it ended up. Thanks, that’s good to know that the rear toe adjustment bolt is a fine adjustment & not a coarse adjustment – it wasn’t clear to me in the SM. ... i think any remaining lack of stability is from the cross camber. I agree, & if the dealer doesn’t fix the camber & the adjustable lower controls also don’t fix the remainder of the wandering you may need a bit more rear positive toe so it is closer to the middle of the spec, which I think would fix the problem. But I understand your concern about tyre wear. Please keep us updated on any outcome. Thanks for the video link, they look very easy to fit. One thing I noticed in the SM under rear wheel toe-in adjustemt. It mentions when adjusting adjust to the following value; Toe-in: Adjustment value 3mm ±2 mm (0.12 in ±0.08 in). This is different to the spec for the rear of 3mm ±3mm (0.12 in ±0.12 in). And likewise front toe adjustment value 0mm ±2 mm (0.00 in ±0.08 in) is different to the spec for the front toe of 0mm ±3mm (0.00 in ±0.12 in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I just wanted to add my 2 cents... If this were to turn into a recall or manufacturing defect, it would most likely be determined to involve cars built within a certain range of time... For anyone if still following this thread, please post the manufacturing date of your legacy.. It can be found bottom door jam, drivers side.. My 2015 legacy 3.6 R was manufactured 12/2014... I think it will be interesting to compare dates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I think it will be interesting to compare dates... It won’t be much use posting my build date due to the Australian spec cars being built in Japan, but it wouldn’t hurt for the USDM cars. I know this has been posted before, but I think it would be more beneficial if a wheel alignment check was done & the as found results posted in this thread for those cars having this issue, either by the owner if they can do it accurately or by a good independent wheel aligner. Unless I’ve missed something, so far there has only been n2oiroc & me that have done this (posted them at least). Without data or someone coming up with something that has clearly fixed the problem, everyone is just guessing. Has anyone with this issue tried rotating the tyres? A fix that appears to have worked on jchorn’s car, see the post here. In my experience, wheel alignment & tyre pressures (set cold) are both fairly critical on a Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 It is going into the shop today. As soon as I have the alignment spec sheet I will post it up.. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkshooter Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Been mulling this alignment issue over. Though bad alignment is definitely something that should be corrected, I don't see it causing the symptoms these guys are having. Traveling straight down the road and suddenly, for no apparent reason, the car veers off to one side or the other seems to be an intermittent situation while bad alignment would be constantly present, something the driver would fight constantly. Only if something was loose causing the alignment to suddenly change could I see it being alignment related. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Been mulling this alignment issue over. Though bad alignment is definitely something that should be corrected, I don't see it causing the symptoms these guys are having. Traveling straight down the road and suddenly, for no apparent reason, the car veers off to one side or the other seems to be an intermittent situation while bad alignment would be constantly present, something the driver would fight constantly. Only if something was loose causing the alignment to suddenly change could I see it being alignment related. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk I thought the same thing until i got an alignment. It seriously changed the car a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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