n2oiroc Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Good stuff. But I’m intrigued why you say 0.06” total rear toe is a good spec to aim for when your 0.12” total rear toe works so well. Mine has always had 0.057" total rear toe (calculated from 0.12º), with the front toe adjusted to 0º, & it wanders slightly. I wasn’t happy with the wandering with the slight front toe-in mine had originally (I didn’t measure what it was but it didn’t appear to be much). Perhaps I should have tried a touch more toe-in, but the front tyres where showing signs of wear at low kms. Youre right, .12" is where im at and a good #. My previous alignment with less toe also felt pretty good so i dont think a little less toe would hurt, but every car is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Ahh ok, thanks for the clarification & your updates throughout your dramas. It’s nice to see that your perseverance paid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTKing Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 n2: Thanks for the alignment advice to fix my wandering Legacy. You suggested the shop go .02" toe-in on all 4 corners. What does that equal in degrees? You suggested I have the alignment specialist to adjust toe at .02 inches on each corner, but the alignment specialist at the tire store did not know how to convert inches into degrees so he set all toe to .20 degrees. I think this is too much, but it is within specifications. What is your opinion? I think I may have excessive tire wear at this setting. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 By moving the sub-frame you may now find the wheel base is slightly different left vs right, but if everything else is pretty good I can’t see that causing a problem (or maybe it was different before & it is now equal). A good idea to verify on another aligner. That is verified with a 0 thrust angle. He's square. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 n2: Thanks for the alignment advice to fix my wandering Legacy. You suggested the shop go .02" toe-in on all 4 corners. What does that equal in degrees? You suggested I have the alignment specialist to adjust toe at .02 inches on each corner, but the alignment specialist at the tire store did not know how to convert inches into degrees so he set all toe to .20 degrees. I think this is too much, but it is within specifications. What is your opinion? I think I may have excessive tire wear at this setting. Thank you 0.5 degrees is about 1/8" from what I recall on the measurements from my Forester, so 0.2 degrees would be a little under 1/16". And I just checked this in CAD and yes, for a tire diameter of 27" this is true. Smaller diameters would obviously show a smaller toe in inches for the same degrees, and larger tires would show a larger toe in inches. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTKing Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 There is a conversion calculator here https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm Nt recommended .02" toe-in at each corner. Using the calculator above .02 inches equals .04 degrees toe-in for one wheel. My tires are Goodyear LS2 with a diameter of 26.9" (according to tire rack). Do these numbers pass the logic test? Thanks for your comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 You really want to see as close as 0 toe in the rear as possible. Less in the rear than the front, not the other way around. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTKing Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I think I made a mistake in my calculation. Using the calculator above for converting inches to degrees. My total toe-in is .40 inches (two wheels). The tire size is 27 Inches which equals a toe-in degree for one wheel of .42 degrees or total toe-in .84 degrees. Both these numbers far exceed the specified range. Does this make sense? I will go back to the tire dealer for a third time tomorrow. I need to vent. I live in Louisville Kentucky but have lived in many other cities in my life. I don't recall any other place in my experiences where professionals, technicians, trade people, mechanics etc. have been so incompetent. In Louisville it is imperative that that you become a subject matter expert on everything from furnaces to shingles to car alignment before you make a purchase. It is difficult to make decisions when so many people don't know what they are doing but they pretend to know everything. I am very happy that forums such as this exist to help me learn. Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Have the alignment set as close to the manufacturer spec as possible and call it a day. You guys are making this 10x harder than it has to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 That is verified with a 0 thrust angle. He's square. It depends where they pivoted the rear sub-frame from – from the centre or from one side. If the toe was adjusted both sides after pivoting the sub-frame from one side (moving the other side forward or back), then yes, thrust angle wouldn’t be 0º & the wheel base could be different one side compared to the other. However, if the toe was adjusted both sides after pivoting the sub-frame from the centre (moving one side forward & the other side the same amount back), then thrust angle could be 0º but the wheel base could be different one side compared to the other. I haven’t drawn this rear suspension up in CAD to see if I’m right, but I’m happy to be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 n2: You suggested the shop go .02" toe-in on all 4 corners. What does that equal in degrees?Not n2, but see my earlier post here for mm, inches & degree comparisons. It is easy to re-calculate from these figures. I prefer to use these figures. I get two different figures for tyre OD depending if I measure the tyre OD using a plumb bob from the tyre centre front & back to the garage floor, compared to rolling the car forward which is the way outlined in the SM. Taken from the SM with degrees calculated from degrees & minutes: Total front toe inspection value: 0mm +/- 3mm (0.00" +/- 0.12") Toe angle (sum of both wheels): 0º00' +/- 0º15', which is 0º +/- 0.25º Total rear toe inspection value: 3mm +/- 3mm (0.12" +/- 0.12") Toe angle (sum of both wheels): 0º15' +/- 0º15', which is 0.25º +/- 0.25º ... but the alignment specialist at the tire store did not know how to convert inches into degrees so he set all toe to .20 degrees. That’s a worry. This is why I prefer degrees in the specs, it saves re-calculating & makes it easy for DIY. Toe is the total of both wheels, is this what you mean? From the SM; 3.0mm = 0.12” = 0.25º. So your 0.20º = 0.096” = 2.4mm If this is the total toe then this is within spec. However if this is toe per wheel then it is out of spec. I would suggest using n2oiroc’s as left figures with the toe figures converted to degrees for your aligner, seeing those settings work on n2oiroc’s car. I will be aiming for the toe mid spec figures on my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTKing Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thanks XT for the details. I had the car realigned for the third time and the car drives much better than it has in the past. The final alignment numbers (all degrees) are Front camber left -0.4 right -0.5 Front caster left 5.8 right 5.9 Front toe left .01 right .02 Rear camber left -1.3 right -1.6 Rear toe left .06 right .05 Thrust angle 0.00 Tire Discounters aligned the car 3 times for one price of $97.00. They said bring it back again if you are not happy and we will align again. I believe I wore out my welcome with changes. Thank everyone for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwlegltd Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 For those having issues with drifting on highways: Has anyone checked to see if the Lane Keep Assist is off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 n2: Thanks for the alignment advice to fix my wandering Legacy. You suggested the shop go .02" toe-in on all 4 corners. What does that equal in degrees? You suggested I have the alignment specialist to adjust toe at .02 inches on each corner, but the alignment specialist at the tire store did not know how to convert inches into degrees so he set all toe to .20 degrees. I think this is too much, but it is within specifications. What is your opinion? I think I may have excessive tire wear at this setting. Thank you Im really good at many things, math isnt one of them. im sure someone can figure that out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2oiroc Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 You really want to see as close as 0 toe in the rear as possible. Less in the rear than the front, not the other way around. It depends on the application and what you are trying to accomplish. with the 50# of jello soft bushings in these cars and the suspension going toe out as it compresses, a little toe in really does help with stability. Toe in does hurt response though, its a trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 For those having issues with drifting on highways: Has anyone checked to see if the Lane Keep Assist is off? This is a joke right? LoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I had horrible sway on the highway. It all stopped when I installed the 20mm rear sway bar. I would recommend the upgrade for anyone. You could even review my posts about the issue. I was ready to give up on the car completely over the swaying. Even after multiple alignments, the only relief I got was by upgrading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCobbs Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 I really don't want to revive this thread but the wandering issues are beginning to become more noticeable. I've installed the Whiteline 22mm Sway Bar, braces and the Whiteline End links and have had an alignment done as well as balancing. Still the wandering exists on the highway between 55-80mph and is really bad when windy. I have also tried rotating the tires and putting in the recommended tire pressure as well increasing it. The car has Just under 23,000 miles Would doing the front sway bar work or assist with this or is it the "Fuel Max" tires that could be the culprit? I have noticed that the steering wheel has become looser or easier to turn than normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Did you have the steering column recall done? If it doesn't apply to your car, or you've had it done, I would say either alignment or tires is your culprit. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCobbs Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 My car was not in the recall but they did replace the EPS RACK ASSEMBLY. It has gotten worse after this was done. EPS Gearbox Assembly it says too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Goose Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 My car was not in the recall but they did replace the EPS RACK ASSEMBLY. It has gotten worse after this was done. EPS Gearbox Assembly it says too. I'd bring this up to the dealer since it's gotten worse after their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 ^^ +1. For sure, take it back to the dealer to look at it, you don't want your steering to fail while driving. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCobbs Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Seems to be pointing to the tires since they are the "Fuel Max" harder compound... I am currently looking at purchasing new wheels and better all-season tires to see how they perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leolfds Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Chances of being tire related is probably very low if all tires are of the same kind with even thread wear. Do you have your alignment results that you can post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkshooter Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Very windy here lately, gusts up to 35+. Wind pushes car. I counter steer. Wind stops pushing car. My counter steer over corrects. Wind pushes car. I counter steer. I drive by a house. Wind stops pushing car. My counter steer over corrects. Wind hits car again after house. Car gets pushed by wind. Result, car wanders all over road. Has zero to do with tires, bars, magic fairy dust. Simply is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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